Victorinox Tang Stamps

[ThundahBeagle]

I recently got a new to me Explorer with features like you Thundah.  VSSR, cross touching bow not I, half stop on bottle opener, grooved corkscrew, eye in Awl, bow NOT touching the letter C.

Aloha, hope you are well.

What size is the letter V?

Did you get a box with it?

[Aloha]

All is well thank you.  I got it used so no box.  Hope the picture shows well. 

[ThundahBeagle]

All is well thank you.  I got it used so no box.  Hope the picture shows well.

Ah. Regular sized V. Nice Aloha.  Very much like mine.

[Aloha]

All is well thank you.  I got it used so no box.  Hope the picture shows well.

Ah. Regular sized V. Nice Aloha.  Very much like mine.

Yup. 

[ThundahBeagle]

Somewhere on MTO (? ) there is a thread with photos that someone took off SAK liners and how those have evolved as well.

Anyone know who posted that?

[Raoul Octav]

Hello.
I got an Executive (Mcgiver fan, grew up with the series), yet the back spring on the scissor broke. I did some homework, it is not the 70's version due to the scissor spring type, yet i would like to know if it is one from the 80's when Mcgiver was full throttle, a thing of mine... In order for me to be clear on the repair request (repair or replace)
Thx in advanced.

[Myron]

I guess I wasn’t aware that MacGyver carried an Executive.  But I just googled and sure enough he did use one in some episodes. 

They’re inexpensive enough.  Why not get this one fixed and then find yourself a period correct one to be your official MacGyver SAK.

[FolderBeholder]

This tang stamp is on a Cub Scout knife I just bought.


The knife:


I Googled, "54122 Victorinox" and it leads me to a blue Cub Scout Tinker such as this one.
I don't know what the 1702 indicates. 

I haven't seen this stamp on a cap lifter before and wondered if it appears on certain SAKs or during a certain timeframe. 

[Reinier]

Never seen that before! Quite interesting.
February 2017

[jazzbass]

Never seen that before! Quite interesting.
February 2017

I was thinking something similar - Second week of 2017, so Jan 2017. Lots of things in industry (semiconductors, tires, car parts) are dated with a similar "year/week of year" scheme.

[Huntsman]

It certainly looks like 54122 is the US product code  - Right format: ie Starts with 5 and five digits!  And you can google it!!
- But who would stamp a screwdriver that fits multiple products with a single product code?   

The production date makes a bit more sense - But not much -
I get the year on a Soldier - But why YYWW or YYMM on a Scouts knife? 

FB - Did you buy it new? Does year 2017 make sense ?

[FolderBeholder]

FB - Did you buy it new? Does year 2017 make sense ?

I bought it used from eBay and it arrives today. 
As for the date code, it does seem possible, but odd since I've only seen two digit date codes stamped on the older tangs of the main blade.

Thank you Reinier and JB for your thoughts on the date code.  Here is the original ad from the auction.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-1-2-Victorinox-Ibach-Switzerland-54122-1702-Cub-Scouts-Knife-Stainless-Steel/283636317041?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

[Aloha]

Could it be Troop number?

[FolderBeholder]

Could it be Troop number?

That is an interesting thought there Aloha!  It could be! 

[LeaF]

Here is the original ad from the auction.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-1-2-Victorinox-Ibach-Switzerland-54122-1702-Cub-Scouts-Knife-Stainless-Steel/283636317041?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Just found another auction with the same naming as in yours:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-1-2-Victorinox-Ibach-Switzerland-54122-1702-Cub-Scouts-Knife-Stainless-Steel/123932785904?hash=item1cdaf83cf0:g:tEsAAOSwQp5dnH27


Looks little bit different, isn't it? 

[Rapidray]

Just a little 

[Huntsman]

Not sure how a Camillus could be made by Victorinox in Ibach   

[jnoxyd]

Ok thanks a lot, I changed the compilation.

We all use this great sheet very often and like it, thank you again!
We have here only 2017 version and I was told today that modern version exists. Old version has some dates should be corrected in my opinion, maybe new one has them fixed? Here are what I mean, correct me if I'm wrong:

BTW who knows well Hoffritz dating?

[kamakiri]

Like we’ve been discussing, there should be some splits for the stamps that have two or more versions, like +PAT, EC, VSSR1, HSS

Some of the graphics don’t appear correct. Like VOC2. Just looks like VOSC with the bottom cut off.

[jnoxyd]

Like we’ve been discussing, there should be some splits for the stamps that have two or more versions, like +PAT, EC, VSSR1, HSS

Some of the graphics don’t appear correct. Like VOC2. Just looks like VOSC with the bottom cut off.

You are right. Here's earlier VOC version



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[kamakiri]

BTW who knows well Hoffritz dating?

Some knuckle head. 

H is used roughly ‘73 to ‘81/‘82. With VSSR up to about ‘75/‘76 then SSR only

The ‘HSS1’ I show above is from at least ‘51-ish US.PAT.PEND coincidence, but I think there’s PWAR use also. I think the transition to the ‘HSS2’ is in the early ‘60s, but I don’t have a good ‘peg’ for it. They might coincide exactly with the VOC/VOSC transition.

Thanks for bringing this up jnoxyd. Apparently, I was working on some of this on 3/8, but did nothing with the pics. They were intended for this thread and there’s more to do.

[xfile]

I've never seen an actual picture of HSSR,What period does it represent?

[ulli]

Thank you all for the interest on that tang stamp sheet and for your help.

I think that is a project never been finished, because like every week, I learn something new, see a new stamp or something that helps me make the dates more accurate.

So what is a new or different tang stamps. I hope you understand, that I can`t consider every tiny little change/difference, that happened, when the pressure of the punching machine was a little too high or too low, or that happened when they used a different kind of steel. So for me a difference is a new/different name, a small letter instead of a big one, a clear difference in the design. For the elinox stamp, there are at least 6-7 "different" stamps they used. The main visible difference is the size of the stamp, and of course, they needed different tools for those stamps. But for this charts, I don`t want to make here any difference, because its already really complicated. Its not only about the stamps, its also about the combination with other stamps.

So my actual tang stamp sheet has the following corrections you mentioned: the VSSR1 stamp I put between 1955 and 1986. The date “1952” comes officialy from victorinox. I have officer knives with visible rivets with the VSSR1 stamp. They used the VSSR1 stamp for most of the lines of the knives. I don`t know if there was any line they used it from 1952 on, but I don`t think for officer knives. But this chart is not only about officer knives.

The “AS3” stamp comes always with the “VSS5” or the “VSS3” stamp and the “VOC1” So I still would put it between 1951 – 1986. I know, this date is not really accurate, because it’s a really rare tang stamp, not used many times, so I just have not enough examples to narrow the dates.

For the “VSS4” stamp I have examples of officer knives with non visible rivets I think at least from the 1970s. So why do you think it was only used till 1957?

The “ESSR” stamp I put between 1973 and 1976. I have a dated 1976 knife with that stamp. And the “EC” between 1957 and 1974.

The “VOC1” and “VOC2” stamp I did not change yet, but I will. So the correct date would be 1955 – 1957? Because it is always together with the “VSSR1” stamp. Does the “VOSC” not comes after, but started parallel?

[jnoxyd]

Thank you all for the interest on that tang stamp sheet and for your help.

I think that is a project never been finished, because like every week, I learn something new, see a new stamp or something that helps me make the dates more accurate.

So what is a new or different tang stamps. I hope you understand, that I can`t consider every tiny little change/difference, that happened, when the pressure of the punching machine was a little too high or too low, or that happened when they used a different kind of steel. So for me a difference is a new/different name, a small letter instead of a big one, a clear difference in the design. For the elinox stamp, there are at least 6-7 "different" stamps they used. The main visible difference is the size of the stamp, and of course, they needed different tools for those stamps. But for this charts, I don`t want to make here any difference, because its already really complicated. Its not only about the stamps, its also about the combination with other stamps.

So my actual tang stamp sheet has the following corrections you mentioned: the VSSR1 stamp I put between 1955 and 1986. The date “1952” comes officialy from victorinox. I have officer knives with visible rivets with the VSSR1 stamp. They used the VSSR1 stamp for most of the lines of the knives. I don`t know if there was any line they used it from 1952 on, but I don`t think for officer knives. But this chart is not only about officer knives.

The “AS3” stamp comes always with the “VSS5” or the “VSS3” stamp and the “VOC1” So I still would put it between 1951 – 1986. I know, this date is not really accurate, because it’s a really rare tang stamp, not used many times, so I just have not enough examples to narrow the dates.

For the “VSS4” stamp I have examples of officer knives with non visible rivets I think at least from the 1970s. So why do you think it was only used till 1957?

The “ESSR” stamp I put between 1973 and 1976. I have a dated 1976 knife with that stamp. And the “EC” between 1957 and 1974.

The “VOC1” and “VOC2” stamp I did not change yet, but I will. So the correct date would be 1955 – 1957? Because it is always together with the “VSSR1” stamp. Does the “VOSC” not comes after, but started parallel?

Yes you are absolutely right about "different" stamps due to technological process. But we need stamps that looks close but actually used in different times (usually they changed in transition periods together with other tools or  knife construction). I mean large +Pat (1951?-1957) and small +Pat (1957-1971):

and large Elinox (1957-c.1965) with small Elinox (c.1965-1974)

What about Armee Suisse AS3 stamp - I'm sorry, I mean AS2 of course (couldn't find it in 2017 MTO version ). BTW can you show AS3 stamped knives please, it's interesting.
After WW2 stamps usually changed in so called transition periods 1951-1952, 1957-1958, 1973-1974 and 1985-1986 (so VSSR1 started in 1957 etc.) We had nice discussion about 1950s stamps recently here and I like Jazzbass resume:

"The progression of stamps in the early vintage (EVNT) era from 1951-1957 seems to go:

1. Armee Suisse/Victoria Switzerland Stainless
2. Victoria Switzerland Stainless
3. [Large] Victorinox Switzerland Stainless/Victoria Officier
4. [Small] Victorinox Switzerland Stainless/Victoria Officier
5. Victorinox Switzerland Stainless Rostfrei/Victoria Officier Suisse
Stamps #3 and #4 make of the bulk of the knives from this era. #5 is really the stamp they started using with the mid-vintage hidden rivet knives in 1957/58, with a bit of over lap in both directions."
Knives for illustration (transition 1957 knives : visible rivets knife with new VSSR/VOS like you mentioned and hidden rivets knife with old VSS/VO )


We can't to date exactly 3# to #4 changes but other stamps can be dated well:
Armee Suisse                                          AS2         1936-1951
Victoria Switzerland Stainless           vss2?          till c.1952
Victoria Officier crossbow (both)      voc2            1952-1957
Victorinox Switzerland Stainless      vss4              1952-1957
Victoria Officier Suisse crossbow          VOSC     1957-1973(4?)
Victorinox Switzerland Stainless Rostfrey vssr1  1957-1986
Here's link to discussion:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,51152.960.html
Great you have ESSR knife with date! Can you show it please for mr. Kamakiri.

[kamakiri]

Great you have ESSR knife with date! Can you show it please for mr. Kamakiri.

Any such pictures would be appreciated! But posting them in ulli’s dated inlay advertising knife thread would be better!  More pictures of the 1965 ‘large’ Elinox crossbow knife would be great too!

[ulli]

Ok I`ll try to upload some pictures of dated knives the next few day. But I don`t think I`m the only one having such knives? Maybe I`ll ask elsinox so we can put dated knives together. Hopefully you will be surprised on same knives/dates.

I spoke many times with victorinox about those tang stamps and the exact time range. Everytime I showed them a special tang stamp or special time range, they answered with "ahh, thats most likely a "monday stamp""... So what do they mean with that. After weekends, holidays or carneval, it happened sometimes that an employee took the "wrong"  tool/stamp or chose the wrong pressure, put the tools the wrong side in. They realised that sometimes fast, sometimes not, so maybe already 5000 blades were made with the "wrong" stamp, for example an elinox stamp instead of an vssr. So what happened next. The employee hat to go directly to the director, karl elsener senior, to tell him about the "problem". And according to victorinox, his answer was always: as long as the knife is functioning fine, just sell them. Who cares about the stamps/non functional parts.
And of course, he`s right. Why not sell those knives? A few years ago, I saw at the ibach shop long nailfiled golfers for sale, modern tang stamp, old parts. I asked why they sell them. The answer was just: an employee found a box with nailfiles and decided to use them and he assembled golfers.
When I was for a guided tour at victorinox, I saw that an employee grinded and fixed kitchen knives by hand, every part. I asked why. And the answer was: ah he`s just producing the demanded year production of 50 pieces, because for such a small amount, it would be much too complicated to change the machines. And as long as someone still needs those special knives, we will produce them.
So that was and still is victorinox. So not for every thing/knife you see, there`s always an easy answer. Thats the same for tang stamps and time ranges. So not every mixed knife (old parts with new parts; old stamps with new parts;..) means that it has been repaired, or is a mod or a custom made knife. So 1 dated knife still means nothing, a few same knives means more, but for verifiation, you need lets say 20 pieces.

[jnoxyd]

Haha, nice story about "Monday stamp", thank you! I'd like to have some of them. Yes, I remember that Golfers LNF, I bought Climber LNF that they also made from the rest of LNFs in 2010.


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[kamakiri]

ulli- thanks for the background story and history lesson!  And for getting more pictures into the dated inlay thread.

I do have one more request - if you have any examples of ‘Monday’ stamps, could you post them in my ‘OOPS!’ thread here:

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,82832.msg2042613.html#msg2042613

I have a few of my examples there. Like this:



It’s funny that it’s Monday issues, it’s a common saying in the US for mistakes or QC issues in automobiles that they were ‘built on a Friday’, because workers are eager to leave for the weekend. Build dates were often easy to find on a sheet that was inside the car.

[ulli]

I added a picture of 2 knives with the stamp "as3"

Like we’ve been discussing, there should be some splits for the stamps that have two or more versions, like +PAT, EC, VSSR1, HSS

Some of the graphics don’t appear correct. Like VOC2. Just looks like VOSC with the bottom cut off.

No they appear correctly. It is a different stamp, the crossbow from "vosc", but without the "suisse". Maybe a transition stamp :-)

[jnoxyd]

Oh, nice knives! Thank you for sharing, Ulli. This cross in emblem has "triangular" tips like in 1940s- early 1950s. What are other side stamps??