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Victorinox Tang Stamps 24494

Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,213
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2017, 04:58:42 PM »
I use sakhome quite a bit, it's a great site.  I really appreciate the time and effort it took to gather and publish that information.  Of course we all use sakwiki and the many other links (including sakhome, that's how I found it).  I personally have spent a considerable amount of time and effort in placing dates on SAKs. There are a few dating features out there that is seems no one has quite been able to narrow down on any site I've seen. For example, I have not found accurate dates for:
  5-turn to 4-turn corkscrew
  Single to Double leaf scissor spring on 74 & 84mm
  Dating features on 74mm in general
  Dating the "passenger" / Alpineer
  More thorough general information about alox/waffenkontroll

I do think wealth of information here at MTO on the SAK and Collectors forum is the most comprehensive I've found... but you have to dig in and search for it.  We should all realize that we've already alienated ourselves from normal society and work together on the effort.  We can spread the the love and knowledge and still  remember our manners.
 :tu: :D :salute:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,213
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2017, 07:42:00 PM »
I don't have the mother load or anything but I'm going to do my best to post pics of each variation I have soon.  :salute:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 2,344
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #92 on: June 25, 2017, 12:31:08 AM »
........
I have found at least two different types of the crossbow on the back side of main blade.
Type A, older: the crossbow and the cross are touching each other and the cross is a bit larger than next one;
Type B, newer: there is little space between the crossbow and the cross.
I had been using comparative analysis of internet photos and found out, that change of the stamp happened between 1992-1996.
........

Some of these tang stamp changes are so subtle - I am staggered that you guys even spot them  :o
This one with the cross touching or not touching is amazing.
It's like in the 2000s when they changed from V S S R to V SM S. But then the V size also changed a little later and there were also differences in the Swiss Made size/letter spacing.
There is a good thread on that with some photos by JazzBass.
And I still don't know how Ulli fits the dates to the stamps

The other one that I find quite hard to understand and see is the change from a tapered awl to the bevelled awl (or v.v) that happened a year or so after the awl got its eye.

And the scales date stamps thing is very useful - I am going to look at that some more - But as you say it's very invasive. I try and avoid taking the scales off if I can, as it can damage the bushing clips.

Thanks for the info anyway. Much appreciated

For me and my collection I am sticking with the major tool evolution changes  :tu:

Hey El CS
- There is some info on the WC stamps in SOSAK/SAKnights - There is a link at the bottom of the Soldier 61 (link) page in the Wiki.
Have you seen this? Any good?
And for the five turn to four turn CS switch is the SAAMS (link) date not correct?

Yes agree with you there is much less info available on the non-91mm sizes for dating
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 01:21:05 AM by Huntsman »
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,213
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #93 on: June 25, 2017, 12:44:08 AM »


.
........
I have found at least two different types of the crossbow on the back side of main blade.
Type A, older: the crossbow and the cross are touching each other and the cross is a bit larger than next one;
Type B, newer: there is little space between the crossbow and the cross.
I had been using comparative analysis of internet photos and found out, that change of the stamp happened between 1992-1996.
........

Some of these tang stamp changes are so subtle - I am staggered that you guys even spot them  :o
This one with the cross touching or not touching is amazing.
It's like in the 2000s when they changed from V S S R to V SM S. But then the V size also changed a little later and there were also differences in the Swiss Made size/letter spacing.
There is a good thread on that with some photos by JazzBass.
And I still don't know how Ulli fits the dates to the stamps

The other one that I find quite hard to understand and see is the change from a tapered awl to the bevelled awl (or v.v) that happened a year or so after the awl got its eye.

And the scales date stamps thing is very useful - I am going to look at that some more - But as you say it's very invasive. I try and avoid taking the scales off if I can, as it can damage the bushing clips.

Thanks for the info anyway. Much appreciated

For me and my collection I am sticking with the major tool evolution changes  :tu:

Hey ES
- There is some info on the WC stamps in SOSAK/SAKnights - There is a link at the bottom of the Soldier 61 page in the Wiki.
Have you seen this? Any good?
And for the five turn to four turn CS switch is the SAAMS date not correct?

Yes agree with you there is much less info available on the non-91mm sizes for dating

I'm fairly confident that date is about 10 years off. I think it's closer to the date on the clip point blade. I've never seen a 5 turn On a knife with a spearpoint small blade
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 12:48:37 AM by El Corkscrew »

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 2,344
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #94 on: June 25, 2017, 01:10:38 AM »
Ah That's an interesting theory. I always thought SAAMS was the SAK 'bible'

I only have two recentish five turners and they are both clip pointers - So supports you theory - I need to check the other tools

We need JazzBass!! Are you there mate?
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,213
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #95 on: June 25, 2017, 01:15:25 AM »
I also think the combo tool was introduced some time between 80-82, not 86 :cheers:

I think the bevel on the tip of the awl was stopped by 80 as well.

I believe I can place some ballpark dates on the phillips as well:  First is SAAM's dates, then mine (mine only has one confused face) :D

1. (1952-????) square, file, no can-key
2. (????-????) square, no file, no can-key
3. (????-????) square, no file, can-key
4. (1992?-????) round, can-key
5. (????-now) round, no can-key


1. (1952 - 1968) square, file, no can-key
2. Never seen it???? (square, no file, no can-key
3. (1968 -1980) square, no file, can-key
4. (1980 - 1992) round, can key
5. 1992 - present round no can key
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 01:27:37 AM by El Corkscrew »

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,213
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #96 on: June 25, 2017, 01:34:10 AM »
.

For me and my collection I am sticking with the major tool evolution changes  :tu:

Hey El CS
- There is some info on the WC stamps in SOSAK/SAKnights - There is a link at the bottom of the Soldier 61 (link) page in the Wiki.
Have you seen this? Any good?
And for the five turn to four turn CS switch is the SAAMS (link) date not correct?

Yes agree with you there is much less info available on the non-91mm sizes for dating

The article on the 61 soldiers is good.   :tu:  Thanks for pointing that out  :cheers:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 2,344
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #97 on: June 25, 2017, 01:44:31 AM »
Aha - Interesting again Mr El CS

I will have to update my SAK dating table

I got very excited by your item 3.
I collect the tool variations (mainly according to SAAMS, and other info learned here) and I thought that this was the one tool, that was missing from my collection!
If it does not exist at all then my collection is complete -  :ahhh  Woo hoo !!

But I went to check ....... and I do have the square Ph with can-key and no file. It's on an old 84mm Hoffritz Tinker.

The one I do not have is the square Ph with no can-key and no file ???
So if you have one for trade/purchase I would be very happy to have a chat  :D

We need some of the old timers like ICanFixThat / JB / Stressmaster to chip in on this etc

PS. Ulli - Sorry to hijack your thread - However it's all dating info - So I hope that is OK  :tu:
PPS. Thanks for the comment on the 61 Soldier page - I did some major restructuring/rework on that a while ago
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,213
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #98 on: June 25, 2017, 01:50:43 AM »
Aha - Interesting again Mr El CS


But I went to check ....... and I do have the square Ph with can-key and no file. It's on an old 84mm Hoffritz Tinker.

It's the square no file no can key that I have not run into... have you?   I'm pretty sure that can key stayed in there on all the Phillips from 68-92


I might have  been fixing a typo when you first glanced
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 02:22:30 AM by El Corkscrew »

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 2,344
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #99 on: June 25, 2017, 02:04:51 AM »
Yep - The 'never seen it' moved from 3 to 2 !! - So we are in agreement !!

It's number 2 that I have never seen either.

Although my collection is not that extensive compared to many - And I don't trawl eBay so much either these days!!

So if anyone has the square Ph with no can-key and no file - Let us know!!
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 13,550 Hidalgo, Castillo del Hook
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2018, 06:18:08 PM »
:bump:
Got to keep it alive.  :salute:

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,213
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2018, 06:45:05 PM »
This is the thread that lead me to becoming a Knight  :SAKnight:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #102 on: May 20, 2018, 10:34:25 PM »
Definitely - Dating SAKs is as much an art as a science!!
Our info says the awl got it's eye and the SD its half stop in 85, and the V got big in 86

Particularly for changes that happened in consecutive years - we see SAKs that break the rules!
I think its all down to the parts bin!! ie Old style parts being used after they are 'retired'.

I know that our dates are "circa" and forgive me if this has been discussed, but may I politely submit that we should move the dates for the half stop and the sewing eye FIRMLY in the year 1984 at least. Here's why I think so...  Have we seen any of those two changes in known 1983 models? I don't know the answer to that but I have a Vic Explorer, older style burgundy box with white slide out cardboard tray and paperwork. The tray is inked "Explorer " and embossed "84". The knife tang has Victorinox  (normal size V), Swizerland, stainless, rostfrei. Back tang marked officier suisse, with the bow and cross. Cross touches bow, bow touches C, cross does not touch Letter i. The mag glass is framed in grey plastic with a slight bevel. The snap ring holder is on a shim at the corkscrew layer, the scissors held by a screw. This knife has a grooved, 4 twist corkscrew, and more importantly,  it has a half-stop bottle opener and a sewing eye in the awl. Is that aspositively dated to 1984 as anything we have seen, seeing as the box in which in came was marked from the factory? We have been saying '85 for both of those changes, but I have BOTH of those implementations on this clearly marked 1984 Explorer.

Any thoughts or contradictions? I try to read all of these dating posts but it's hard to keep up.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 12:50:58 AM by ThundahBeagle »
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #103 on: May 20, 2018, 10:40:34 PM »
By the way, the box is marked 84,  but there is a hand written note inside "from Uncle Barney Wallis 6-27-87 for High School graduation"

If the knife was made in 1984, and it was given as a gift in 1987, then we have some idea of production, shipping, and shelf time - at least during that era.

So, when I bought my Super Tinker about 1988, it could have been on the shelf for three years prior and have 1985 features.

But this Explorer is marked 1984 from Victorinox itself. Should that be the best we have to go by?
Jr. Member Posts: 90
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #104 on: May 21, 2018, 11:02:20 AM »
Hi, ThundahBeagle.
Could you make a detail photo to illustrate your post? It seems to be interesting.

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #105 on: May 21, 2018, 07:47:49 PM »
Hi, ThundahBeagle.
Could you make a detail photo to illustrate your post? It seems to be interesting.

Happy to, Frater. At the moment I am at work, however I hope to do that when I have returned.
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #106 on: May 22, 2018, 02:45:52 AM »
Some pics of the '84 Explorer...
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2018, 02:46:26 AM »
...
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #108 on: May 22, 2018, 02:47:18 AM »
...
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #109 on: May 22, 2018, 02:48:24 AM »
...
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #110 on: May 22, 2018, 02:49:14 AM »
...
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #111 on: May 22, 2018, 02:50:03 AM »
...
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #112 on: May 22, 2018, 03:00:25 AM »
Had to smudge up the blade a bit to keep the reflections down, but I think these pics demonstrate the Explorer with both the large screwdriver / bottle cap opener half stop, and the sewing eye awl. The older style box is inked Explorer and impressed '84'. I do have more pics, but the limited picture size posting requirements have us at a slight disadvantage.

It is especially because this clearly marked '84 has both of those features that I would think that these changes would have had to have been codified in 1984 or possibly even 1983.

Again, have we seen any known 1983's with either of these two traits?

I hope this helps
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #113 on: May 22, 2018, 03:11:24 AM »

@Frater_Martin

could you explain the scale calendar and how it works?  I have noticed there was one inside, but was unsure of how to use it to extract data (did not want my ignorance leading to a bad assumption)

Don’t you know? I am not a specialist in that, moreover English is not my native language, but I can try.
When Victorinox factory molds plastic scales of the pressured hot plastic, they insert special tabs into a matrix. These tabs can show the year of the scale molding, number of the matrix etc. Some people call first of them “calendar”.
It can be number of the year, special circus of numbers/symbols etc. (see picture below). Pay attention that it is only the year of the scale production, not the year when the knife was born. Sometimes i did not find any calendars on scales.
We have to remove both scales to see both years on internal side of it. I know, it is a bit invasive method. Sometimes we can see the calendar through transparent plastic using a magnification glass and a flashlight.

Sort of like turning your Igloo Playmate cooler upside down and looking at the dial shaped calendar that marks the date of manufacture, or pulling up the cup-holder of your 1990's Blazer, flipping it upside down and seeing the same sort of thing.

Maybe that doesn't tell us the exact date of knife manufacture, but it is a good reference combined with other known marker features. Same with the underside of the cup-holder. You might see a 93 cup holder in a 94 Blazer, but with original equipment, never the other way around
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 03:13:05 AM by ThundahBeagle »
Hero Member Posts: 590
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2018, 04:12:02 AM »
Hi Guys,

Great discussion.  I think I can add a data point or two to the growing body of evidence.  In 1980 I bought a 91 mm Tinker.  On a camping trip in high school the can opener broke so I sent it to Victorinox.  Rather than repair it, they replaced it with a brand new knife.  I might have completely forgotten this little life event if it were not for the fact that I saved the paperwork from Victorinox in 1983.  So presumably my Tinker would be 1983 at the newest. 

It has these features:

-  half-stop cap lifter/screw driver
-  awl with sewing eye
-  round Phillips s/d with can key slot
-  front tang marking: capital V in VSSR
-  obverse tang marking: cross touching bow, cross not touching I, bow NOT touching C (but I had to look close).

Also, please note that the key ring is missing because I filed off its attachment point when I went through this regretful "modding" phase back in the 1990s. 

The paperwork from Victorinox is dated 7 September 1983 and reads "New Tinker."  I've included a picture of the box, but I don't remember if this is my original box from my 1980 knife, or if it's what the 1983 replacement knife came in.  I checked it for a year emboss on the bottom tray and there was nothing.  The end of the sliding tray is stamped "Tinker."

Here are some pics.  I hope this helps advance the discussion. 

Kind regards,

Myron















 
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,213
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2018, 04:19:43 AM »
Wow!  Thanks Myron!

How interesting!  Everywhere else I've seen and read the sewing eye and 1/2 stop Changes in 91mm occurred in 1985.

You must have gotten one of the very first ones it seems! 

If I remember correctly, I recall jazzbass stating that the hole in the reamer occurred even later for the 84 mm line and a half stop for 84mm not until 2010

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #116 on: May 22, 2018, 05:00:26 AM »
Hi Guys,

Great discussion.  I think I can add a data point or two to the growing body of evidence.  In 1980 I bought a 91 mm Tinker.  On a camping trip in high school the can opener broke so I sent it to Victorinox.  Rather than repair it, they replaced it with a brand new knife.  I might have completely forgotten this little life event if it were not for the fact that I saved the paperwork from Victorinox in 1983.  So presumably my Tinker would be 1983 at the newest. 

It has these features:

-  half-stop cap lifter/screw driver
-  awl with sewing eye
-  round Phillips s/d with can key slot
-  front tang marking: capital V in VSSR
-  obverse tang marking: cross touching bow, cross not touching I, bow NOT touching C (but I had to look close).

Also, please note that the key ring is missing because I filed off its attachment point when I went through this regretful "modding" phase back in the 1990s. 

The paperwork from Victorinox is dated 7 September 1983 and reads "New Tinker."  I've included a picture of the box, but I don't remember if this is my original box from my 1980 knife, or if it's what the 1983 replacement knife came in.  I checked it for a year emboss on the bottom tray and there was nothing.  The end of the sliding tray is stamped "Tinker."

Here are some pics.  I hope this helps advance the discussion. 

Kind regards,

Myron

(Image removed from quote.)

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(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

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(Image removed from quote.)

That's what I'm asking for.

I spent two short years doing I.T. for a manufacturer,  and even in that short time I learned that nothing gets changed on a whim where assembly lines and costing is concerned.

If I have a knife as positively factory dates to '84 as can be, and it has these two traits, then I had to figure both were in full swing sometime in 84, and talked about in the board room in 83.

What surprises me is that you have a knife with both features and it is dated new in September 83.

What surprises me even more is that you have a large V in the front tang. My 84 is normal sized, and my (purchased and presumably 88) has a large V.

So they either wavered back and forth through stock, or they had two separate lines producing main blades.

Either way, the large V, the sewing eye, and the half stop now seem planted firmly in 83.

Now let's see if we can get a confirmed '82 and see what that looks like
No Life Club Posts: 1,576
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2018, 05:30:26 AM »
By the way, Myron,  my 84 box is burgundy and different.  Maybe that's your 80 box?

I think there's a thread on here about boxes where we could find that out.

Your misfortune back in 83 sure seems to have shed light on some time lines
Hero Member Posts: 590
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2018, 02:54:23 PM »
By the way, Myron,  my 84 box is burgundy and different.  Maybe that's your 80 box?

I think there's a thread on here about boxes where we could find that out.

Your misfortune back in 83 sure seems to have shed light on some time lines

Hi Thundah,

Yes, I think the box must be from my original Tinker.  I have a number of the burgundy boxes with original knives, so I will conduct additional research tonight. 

Thanks,

Myron
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 18,094
Re: Victorinox Tang Stamps
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2018, 03:17:03 PM »
I recently got a new to me Explorer with features like you Thundah.  VSSR, cross touching bow not I, half stop on bottle opener, grooved corkscrew, eye in Awl, bow NOT touching the letter C. 

Esse Quam Videri

 

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