Trusty *RUSTY* Leathermans?

[EM745]

Alright, like I'm sure this is the only time LM's rep for rust has been brought up on this forum, right? 

I've lately been reading up on this rusty matter, as well as on various steel alloys, their compositions, the pros and cons of each, etc. Quite a complicated subject... There's a whole lot of alloy "recipes" out there. I've also read reviews of Wave and Charge owners who complain of rust after only a few months of ownership, apparently under "normal" metal-friendly conditions. I've also read conflicting accounts that Waves/Charges resist rust quite well, which only adds to the confusion. 

I know that high carbon "tool" steel is better for SOME tools (metal files, bolt cuters...) as it is harder, but is far more prone to rust than the so-called "softer" chrome-steel alloys. That said, must one just accept the fact that rust is inevitable if one wants a solid, wear-resistant multitool? Many tool aficionados would seem to think so. Me? Well, I'm sorry, but this is 2008, and I believe when one shells out over $100 for a tool, one SHOULDN'T expect it to develop surface rust after just a few months of ownership, even if it's just "cosmetic." Rust "bubbles" on a year old car is also just "cosmetic" and doesn't affect its function. That still doesn't make it acceptable.

What I don't understand is this: I've got sub-$10 pliers and diagonal cutters in my toolbox that are over 5 years old. They're all made of CR-V stainless (which is hard enough for most purposes). None of them have been cleaned or maintained (oiled), and none show any surface rusting. I have a pair of Stanley aviation snips, made of Cr-Mo steel, which is harder than Cr-V (they make transmission gears out of this stuff). Again, I've had this for about four years--no rust. Finally, there my little pair of Vise-Grips (#6LN). Who KNOWS what kind of steel and heat treat they use in those little monsters (I e-mailed Irwin with that very question, they didn't answer, citing trade secrets and so forth  ). Those original Vise Grips are tougher than hell and still manage to resist corrosion as well as anything out there. Maybe that extra tough plating has something to do with it?

That said, I cannot fathom why it would be deemed "expected," "normal," or even "acceptable" that a Leatherman would develop surface rust on the pliers, handles and other implements in the short amount of time--and in the benign conditions--that some owners are reporting. You almost get the sense that the best way to keep your LM looking like new is to drown it every night in a glassful of WD-40  . (LM says their tools are made of "stainless," but AFAIK, they don't specify which kind.) I realize that rust can, given enough time and/or adverse conditions, attack any of the magnetic stainless alloys. What bothers me (and others) about LM's tools is how short a time after purchase, as well as how easily, that this rust occurs.

All that being said, for the asking price of hi-end LM's, would it be so hard for them to make the plier heads out of Cr-Mo alloy? And what about using CR-V, or even titanium for the blades and other implements? I have a pair of full-size scissors with titanium blades, which I paid (IIRC) about $15 at Walmart. So titanium, while more expensive than steel, ain't at all THAT expensive.

I honestly don't think LM's tools would suffer any loss of utility or solidity if LM were to use more rust resistant alloys. Rust-resistant stainless doesn't necessarily have to equal "soft." Cr-Mo is proof enough of that.

Thoughts? Am I totally off with this line of reasoning?

BTW, my Charge TTi is totally, 100% rust free (it had better be, given that it's only been a few weeks since I bought it)... I just hope it stays that way for at least the foreseeable future.

[Spoonrobot]

I'm guessing those scissors are actually not titanium but are Titanium Nitride coated steel. You also don't want titanium for any of the implements, it's a poor material when used in a knife and I have a suspicion it would be a poor general purpose screwdriver too. I think H1, although still a poor choice, would be a better material than titanium for multitool use.

That said, must one just accept the fact that rust is inevitable if one wants a solid, wear-resistant multitool?

Nope, SwissTools are a nice illustrative example of this in action.

That said, I am of the school of thought that the polish is more important that the steel for rust resistance. Combine the Leatherman finish with the fact that most people don't wash the acidic salts from sweat off their tools with any regularity and you get surface rust.

It's all an illusion. 

You notice the rust moreso on Leathermans than other tools because those tools are not touched as much and their handles are not usually exposed steel with a medium polish.

All that being said, for the asking price of hi-end LM's, would it be so hard for them to make the plier heads out of Cr-Mo alloy?

I can't find any specific spec sheets for "Cr-Mo" alloy; is this a proprietary blend or am I just not looking hard enough? That said, can it be cast?

Am I totally off with this line of reasoning?

A little bit. A lot of your point had to do with upgrading materials and production without raising the cost which doesn't make realistic sense. The assumption that the steel is the main problem is also a little spotty since Victorinox uses a really similar steel but experiences nowhere near the complaints that Leatherman does. SOG is in a similar boat, similar steel/higher polish/less rust.

I think that the best way to reduce the incidences or rust on one's tools would be to wash them regularly, throughly dry them either in the sun or in an area with circulating air and lubricate thoroughly. Following this routine I experienced little surface rust and generally only see rust buried in the crevices that are hard to dry/need a lot of time. Alternatively I think one could disassemble the tool and give it a high luster polish similar to Victorinox and see how it holds up then.

::ETA::

Here's a rusty guy.
 

[EM745]

I'm guessing those scissors are actually not titanium but are Titanium Nitride coated steel.

I checked... You're probably right. They (Acme/Westcott) call it "titanium bonded steel," which might be the same as a titanium nitride coating. The blades are natural titanium color, unlike the yellow or black usually associated with ti-ni coatings.

That said, I am of the school of thought that the polish is more important that the steel for rust resistance.

Polish no doubt plays a role. But then, I haven't seen that many complaints of Gerbers rusting prematurely, and most (all?) their tools are mat/bead-blasted.

I can't find any specific spec sheets for "Cr-Mo" alloy

Chrome-Moly, a.k.a. Chrome-Molybdenum. Cr-Mo (or Cr-M) is a general moniker used to describe tools using this family of alloys. BTW, 154CM and S30V both have moly in them.

A lot of your point had to do with upgrading materials and production without raising the cost

My point is you SHOULD be getting better rust resistance for the price already paid.

At most online stores I've been to, a Spirit retails for less than a Wave (sometimes significantly less).

The assumption that the steel is the main problem is also a little spotty since Victorinox uses a really similar steel but experiences nowhere near the complaints that Leatherman does.

It seems LM uses 420HC for some of its knife blades. Victorinox uses "INOX" type steel. From what I could gather here, INOX has moly in it, 420HC does not. IMO there's more than mere extra polishing going on here. It doesn't take much of an additive to change the particular characteristics of an alloy by a significant margin (just look at how small variations in carbon content affect a steel's properties).

I think that the best way to reduce the incidences or rust on one's tools would be to wash them regularly, throughly dry them either in the sun or in an area with circulating air and lubricate thoroughly.

That just seems like a lot of muss and fuss to "maintain" a tool supposedly made of "stainless." Also, some people have reported rust despite these preventative measures.

::ETA::

Here's a rusty guy.
 
(Image removed from quote.)

Ow! My eyes!... MY EYES!!!

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

I find rust unacceptable in a pocket belt tool too, and it's one of the many reason's I almost exclusively carry Victorinox products

Too my mind a MT is one of those 'often carried, little used' things, and so you shouldn't really have to closely inspect it every day/week looking for rust in all the various nooks and cranies (I used to have to do this all the bloody time with my Sideclip and Supertool ) All stainless steels are capable of being genuinly stainless if there properly heat treated to seal the (for want of a better word) pores in the steel

As for Titanium, Spooneys bang on the money, it's just too soft to be used as a tool metal

[EM745]

Too my mind a MT is one of those 'often carried, little used' things, and so you shouldn't really have to closely inspect it every day/week looking for rust in all the various nooks and cranies

ITA 1,000%. Again, it's especially true considering the $$$ one pays for a hi-end Leatherman.

As for Titanium, Spooneys bang on the money, it's just too soft to be used as a tool metal

Titanium, like plain iron, performs better when alloyed with something else. Only difference being titanium doesn't rust (quite unlike iron).

Titanium alloys are used extensively in the military, so titanium must have SOMETHING going for it other than rust prevention. 

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Yeah it's very strong/flexible and extreamely light

They've only recently developed a way of using it in firearm's, so hopefully soon they'll figure out a way of including it in MT's in a practical way, rather than just as a flashy marketing tool

[jzmtl]

I'd like to see a tool with zdp189 stainless. 3% of carbon, 20% of chromium, and HRc of 65. 

[Benner]

Am I the only Leatherman owner on here that has NEVER had any rust on any of their Leatherman tools???  I would say I am an average user of tools and I very rarely clean, oil or wipe them down and I have never had any issues.

What are you lot doing wrong? 

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

I'd like to see a tool with zdp189 stainless. 3% of carbon, 20% of chromium, and HRc of 65. 

Keep wishing mate

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Am I the only Leatherman owner on here that has NEVER had any rust on any of their Leatherman tools???  I would say I am an average user of tools and I very rarely clean, oil or wipe them down and I have never had any issues.

What are you lot doing wrong? 

It's probably your dry, barren personality at work

[scrappy]

it might be the desert but my leatherans do not have rust issues and i carry one every day.

I own a couple titanium knives and some are better than others. there are a lot of grades of titanium and the cheap grades used in handles make poor blades but the mission series aren't bad.

[Benner]

it might be the desert but my leatherans do not have rust issues and i carry one every day.

Not just me then. 

[Spoonrobot]

I'd like to see a tool with zdp189 stainless. 3% of carbon, 20% of chromium, and HRc of 65. 

I have a feeling that this would be worse. My experience with ZDP-189 is that it tends to take an ugly patina fairly quickly when exposed to moisture.

Titanium, like plain iron, performs better when alloyed with something else.

My understanding is that the problem with the alloys of titanium is that for them to have the same strength as a steel part they require twice the thickness/overall size. The overall advantage is weight, not strength. Also, further reading on the subject shows that the finer alloys are exponentially more expensive than basic steel.

Polish no doubt plays a role. But then, I haven't seen that many complaints of Gerbers rusting prematurely, and most (all?) their tools are mat/bead-blasted.

Depends on where you're reading the complaints at. I tend to see a lot of complaints on surface corrosion on Gerbers from less interested users like on Bladeforums and firearms sites. My own experience is that Gerbers develop significantly more rust significantly faster than any other brand due to the bead blast finish.

My point is you SHOULD be getting better rust resistance for the price already paid.

We shall have to disagree on this point. While we haven't set a specific time interval for rust resistance with no maintenance it appears that "a few months" is the time frame you're thinking. In my view this amount of time is exceptionally long for no maintenance and subsequent corrosion due to said lack of maintenance. If you go a month without maintaining a given Leatherman and it does not rust than you have been lucky, to expect to go longer has been shown to lead to user frustrations.

At most online stores I've been to, a Spirit retails for less than a Wave (sometimes significantly less).

This appears to have more to do with production means than polish. To my eye the Wave has significantly more production steps and a higher overall parts count than the Spirit. This leads to longer production times, more man hours and a higher price.

It seems LM uses 420HC for some of its knife blades. Victorinox uses "INOX" type steel. From what I could gather here, INOX has moly in it, 420HC does not. IMO there's more than mere extra polishing going on here. It doesn't take much of an additive to change the particular characteristics of an alloy by a significant margin (just look at how small variations in carbon content affect a steel's properties).

To be fair, the Leatherman website claims "400 series" stainless steel which means it could be anything from 420J to 440V. The 440 series does have moly in it but this point will most likely remain in dispute because Leatherman does not provide a neat little list with the steel character and hardness for digestion like Victorinox does.

That just seems like a lot of muss and fuss to "maintain" a tool supposedly made of "stainless." Also, some people have reported rust despite these preventative measures.

It is stainless steel, not rustproof steel. Rust can occur with any multi, I have rust on some of my SAKs and, although few/far between, SwissTool users will report rust. I was just giving a basic guideline to easily prevent most surface corrosion. It's not a fuss if you toss the tool in with the dishes and then put it in the sun or in front of the A/C vent to dry it. 

[Smitty44]

I've got over a half dozen LM's,and the first one is 25yrs old,and I don't have rust on any of them,they are like any good tool,you take care of them properly an they will last a life time,I've got some of my granddads tools that are over a hundred years old,and they are still workable.

Moral of the story is,you take care of them,they take care of you!!!

[Benner]

I've got over a half dozen LM's,and the first one is 25yrs old,and I don't have rust on any of them,they are like any good tool,you take care of them properly an they will last a life time,I've got some of my granddads tools that are over a hundred years old,and they are still workable.

Moral of the story is,you take care of them,they take care of you!!!

We have had a couple of threads started recently about old tools over in thr Collectors Forum.  Would love to hear some info about yours. 

[Leatherman123]

Only my Gerber's have rusted... My Gerber Fisherman especially!

[prime77]

Am I the only Leatherman owner on here that has NEVER had any rust on any of their Leatherman tools???  I would say I am an average user of tools and I very rarely clean, oil or wipe them down and I have never had any issues.

What are you lot doing wrong? 

Nope me too Benner. I have never had any problems with rust. At least not serious rust. Maybe some superficial surface spots that I can scratch off with my fingernails. In fact I used my Wave the other day to open a floor sink drain cover at work  that was stopped up. The Wave was half way submerged in nasty water that had a degreaser chemical in it that does all sorts of bad things to my hand. When I finally got the drain to go down all I did was rinse the Wave under water and put it back in my pocket. I just checked it and no rust spots.

[Poncho65]

I usually never have a rust problem on any of my tools MT or otherwise.    Could be that my hands are often very dusty from the mortar that I work with everyday and sort of powder coat everything I touch, thus making moisture a less likely threat to my tools 

[bobofish]

I've had rust on my LM's, and frankly it's never bothered me. I had two micra's at one point, one of them lost somewhere. Finally I found the old one and gave my sister the new one, because the older one was my first. You always remember your first.

Anyway, the scissors were very very tight from rust, just barely moveable, the knife blade was rusty, and there was some rust on the different pivots and such. It took me all of 10 minutes with some WD40 and a cloth to get rid of every single spot, and the tool works and looks like new.

I have some rust spots on my Charge saw, but I consider it my fault; I sawed through some drywall, didn't clean off the goop, and went to the beach and ignored the saw for a couple weeks. Sure enough, the drywall spots attracted moisture and gave me some surface rust. I could take it off easily if I wanted to. This may sound dumb, but I keep the rust spots on there (they're not actual rust, just spots) to remind me to take better care of the tool in the future.

I usually (besides when I forget, or am lazy) treat all my tools, including multi's and knives, like I do any good tool. I only buy the best quality tools I can, and then I always oil and protect them, to make sure they last as long as possible. Since my Charge goes everywhere I do on my person, I probably treat it even better than an old $30 pair of pliers that I use a couple times of year. Since it's my EDC, I consider it part of my clothing, and I always wash my clothing. (and myself, lest anyone try any jokes of the smelly smelly variety)

Personally I would like LM to go for LESS rust resistant steels. Namely, tool steel pliers and such. Since I usually take very good care of the tool anyway, the stainless steel is wasted on me, especially since it's softer than other steels. I wish I had the choice, frankly.

[nilfire77]

Here's a rusty guy.
 
(Image removed from quote.)

That's some kinda hair pulling rustyman!

[NeitherExtreme]

Hi all. My opinion is pretty simple...

Steels are a comprimise, and unless you want to drastically increase the cost, I don't see anyway around that. And for what it's worth, stainlessness can be plenty cheap, but you give up quality. Check out dollar store screwdrivers for proof of that... They won't rust but they'll strip in no time, where as a klien with rusty tool steel won't strip for years of hard use.

All in all, I'm very pleased with LM's steel.

I spelled out my thoughts a while ago on this thread...
http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,2090.0.html

[Benner]

The more I read about the LM rust issue, the more I think that it is completely blown out of proportion.

[sjdep97]

Heard about a new product called Corrosion-X. Supposed to remove the rust from guns etc. and keep it off. Might be worth a try!

[cryptrick]

I have seen little tiny rust spots on LM tools before but nothing major. I think they were on a Juice and a Core. But nothing to get upset by, I don't think its much of an issue at all really.

[Anthony]

Some corrosion and light rust never hurt anyone...I've never seen it as a problem.  My gerber MP600 has some tiny spots of surface rust on it, as does my two old Waves.  They all function perfectly.

Now if you find a tool like Spoonrobots and there's some major issue with it, that's another story, and not Leathermans fault at all.  It's not like everyone is waking up and finding a pitted and crippled tool that the day before was fine.

I think about it this way; nature will always win.  Rust if what nature came up with the decompose metals, just like bacteria decomposes organic material...man can come extremely close to preventing it (and at a bigger cost to the buyer), but nature will win out in the end

[brandonc223]

Personally I would like LM to go for LESS rust resistant steels. Namely, tool steel pliers and such. Since I usually take very good care of the tool anyway, the stainless steel is wasted on me, especially since it's softer than other steels. I wish I had the choice, frankly.

I Couldn't Agree More!

[NeitherExtreme]

Personally I would like LM to go for LESS rust resistant steels. Namely, tool steel pliers and such. Since I usually take very good care of the tool anyway, the stainless steel is wasted on me, especially since it's softer than other steels. I wish I had the choice, frankly.

I Couldn't Agree More!

That's the spirit! I'd love to see one as well, I'd love to see a MT that can take the kind of abuse I give my "normal" tools...

[Singh]

RUST! OMG! OMG! OMG! 

Okay, no need to panic. Any metal will rust. Stainless steel rusts. My primary experience with combating rust is with firearms. Clean it, oil it, and keep it dry. That should take care of 99% of your rust problems. If rust gets in there, you'll catch it early enough. Brush it away with a copper brush, re-oil, and go.

An area of concern may be the plastic inserts and moisture getting trapped in there. I'm not a modder, so taking apart a LM is not be something I could do without buggering it up. (Really, how do you take a LM apart? I can see ordinary pliers stripping those wee tiny bolts)

The Solution to getting between the plastic inserts: soak your LM in mineral spirits or rubbing alcohol to drive away the water. Let dry, then re-oil as normal. Heck, why not dip the LM in some mineral, oil, wipe off the excess, and go. How's that for rust prevention? (feel free to citizen and flame away. I've yet to try a an oil soak, but could it hurt?).

Maybe you could blast the LM with a hairdryer to heat it up and drive out moisture, or pop in a warm oven, and then dip it in oil. More than one way to skin that cat, I guess.

For those who wash their LM in the dishwasher: bear in mind some plastics/polymers actually absorb water. Not sure if that is a great idea.

[Spoonrobot]

Any metal will rust.

H1 won't. 

Not sure if the oil soak would be a good idea. I've tried this before and the tool tends to leak oil for weeks afterward, it's a total pain in the rear. I think it's much better to clean the tool regularly and lubricate the moving parts as opposed to trying to keep the entire tool protected.

I didn't have too much of an issue with moisture being trapped under the inserts, but it does seem like an alcohol bath would be the prudent way to address this issue. Re: The Dishwasher: I've sent my Kick and my Blast through the wash hundreds of times without a problem, whatever the polymer is, it doesn't have this issue.

[WhichDawg]

I think many of us here take care of our tools, so spotting is not a big issue, I've had it on a few LMs and it came off fine.
but I think the issue is if you forget it somewhere or lose it for awhile or buy a used one, or don't take care of your tools it could become
a serious problem over time.

Victorinox uses stainless, "Inox" it's called and they don't charge a ton more for it, and it doesn't rust/spot like the others so why can't others have better steels?....