Royal Mail UK no longer allowing knives to be posted

[SurgeUk]

RELAX!!!

You CAN still send legal bladed items, so long as you meet the conditions specified.
This is on Royal Fail's own website:

https://www.royalmail.com/sites/royalmail.com/files/2024-03/bladed-items-sharp-objects-weapons-web-changes-rm-consumer-26-march-2024.pdf

Part of being in such a democracy is that we afford people the right to refuse a task that they feel would be too dangerous for them. In this case, Royal Fail are specific about which items are already illegal, but also follow with some very specific requirements for legal items, where the focus is primarily on keeping their employees safe.
There is no law that demands they ship such items and they are free to refuse anything they like, and yet they are still being pretty reasonable here.

Cheers Tasky 

I had looked a week or so ago but got distracted by something shiny 

It seems that, once again, a bit of common sense has prevailed.

I picked up the April GAW today; it was sent from good ol' HH (via UPS, not RM) and had the usual age verification upon purchase and then a collection with ID & signed for 

I will double check before I send the winner their bounty but I doubt any further restrictions will apply 
Stay safe out there awl 

[Vidar]

Reading that postal link it certainly doesn't seem like a ban. So a bit too much of a fuzz in the glass.

Part of being in such a democracy is that we afford people the right to refuse a task that they feel would be too dangerous for them. In this case, Royal Fail are specific about which items are already illegal, but also follow with some very specific requirements for legal items, where the focus is primarily on keeping their employees safe.
There is no law that demands they ship such items and they are free to refuse anything they like, and yet they are still being pretty reasonable here.

Well, I can't go into specifics of UK law matters, or how the Royal postal service is organized. I fully assume they have their ducks in row according to UK rules and regulations.

I don't think their decision is based on safety for their employees though - the package would be the same regardless of whether the recipient is over 18 or not. To the extent it is a safety concern it would be more natural with just stricter packing requirements? The definition of some pocket knifes, which are made to be in a pocket, as dangerous items to ship in a box is an indication of a different motive.

I think a public postal service should cater for freight of normal legal items which are indeed not deemed dangerous to ship as such by those agencies who regulates that. To the degree items are dangerous to ship there are plenty of regulations going into great detail and those regulations cover all freight services and companies. I think that would be the natural way to go if one indeed decided knives were too dangerous to send rather than each chain in a potential long freight chain making their own rules independently.

A public postal service that is free to refuse anything they like? I would think the postal service is paid partially by public money to perform a postal service? At least over here there is indeed a law that regulates what they have to accept to deliver, and with post being international as well I would suppose other countries have something similar. The short version here is that they have a duty to deliver as long as the contents are legal to send and appropriately packaged. I think that is reasonable too.   

[Vidar]

Anyway, I guess we are used to different systems and logic behind them and think accordingly. Depending on the viewpoint there are several valid lines of reasoning I think. 

[Ukleathermanfan]

Only once has some jobsworth asked to see ID. Every other time it's been "yeah, you're good." Hardly the height of oppressive bureaucracy.

Germany has taken bellfast and Kiev, we've been occupied by 11 million and 17 year old men can't order pocket knives.
Seems the definition of oppressive bureaucracy to me.

[SteveC]

This thread is starting to teeter on the edge of the forums no politics rule.

Let's keep politics out of it please.

[Tasky]

Reading that postal link it certainly doesn't seem like a ban. So a bit too much of a fuzz in the glass.

I think the 'ban' idea came from widely posted mistruths and assumptions on places like eBay, especially since the dates of implementation did not match. That's why I went to see what the official RM website said.

I don't think their decision is based on safety for their employees though - the package would be the same regardless of whether the recipient is over 18 or not. To the extent it is a safety concern it would be more natural with just stricter packing requirements? The definition of some pocket knifes, which are made to be in a pocket, as dangerous items to ship in a box is an indication of a different motive

Have you read the release? The new regulations as they describe them seem to be about nothing but safer packaging and compliance with the law. Given how badly some people have packaged stuff just in my own previous experience, it wouldn't surprise me if RM regularly encounter bladed items that are simply chucked in an envelope. I've certainly had chisels arrive with the razor-sharp edges sticking through the inadequate packaging.

Regarding pocket knives specifically though;
"Note: this excludes folding pocket knives where the cutting edge of its blade does not exceed 3 inches (7.62cm) or razor blades permanently enclosed in a cartridge or housing where less than 2mm is exposed which can be sent without using Age verification service".
So again, it's all good.

I think a public postal service should cater for freight of normal legal items which are indeed not deemed dangerous to ship as such by those agencies who regulates that. To the degree items are dangerous to ship there are plenty of regulations going into great detail and those regulations cover all freight services and companies. I think that would be the natural way to go if one indeed decided knives were too dangerous to send rather than each chain in a potential long freight chain making their own rules independently.

"We also reserve the right to refuse any other item banned by law or that, in our opinion, may be harmful or dangerous to our customers or employees".
Badly packaged sharp things may be harmful or dangerous... Again, it's their legal right and they're still being very reasonable about it.

Worth noting that this right is echoed by the USPS and many other carriers in various countries.

The short version here is that they have a duty to deliver as long as the contents are legal to send and appropriately packaged. I think that is reasonable too.   

Despite Royal Mail now being a private company, they are regulated by Ofcom, and what you describe above is exactly what they're doing.


In short, they'll still happily deliver the legal stuff, but you've got to stop it from skewering your Postie and be age-verified for legal reasons.
It's all good.

[Vidar]

I think the 'ban' idea came from widely posted mistruths and assumptions on places like eBay, especially since the dates of implementation did not match. That's why I went to see what the official RM website said.

Yes, there did seem to be a mismatch between ban and that statement. Hence my statement above that more fuzz than needed about this.

Have you read the release? The new regulations as they describe them seem to be about nothing but safer packaging and compliance with the law. Given how badly some people have packaged stuff just in my own previous experience, it wouldn't surprise me if RM regularly encounter bladed items that are simply chucked in an envelope. I've certainly had chisels arrive with the razor-sharp edges sticking through the inadequate packaging.

I did read the release. I figured adequate packaging wasn't the new idea there but that the age verification was. If they indeed didn't have any demands for packaging before then by all means that is way overdue. We have had that for a long time though - anything not appropriately packed can be refused.

I've gotten some sharp stuff through the mail myself so clearly some breaches there at times. Not to mention not getting some sharp stuff - one time much of the sharp point stuff had left the package along the way somewhere to become hazards instead.

Regarding pocket knives specifically though;
"Note: this excludes folding pocket knives where the cutting edge of its blade does not exceed 3 inches (7.62cm) or razor blades permanently enclosed in a cartridge or housing where less than 2mm is exposed which can be sent without using Age verification service".
So again, it's all good.

I said some pocket knives, and by that I meant all those that exceeds 3 inches blade length. They are still folded with a covered blade. And here age verification does seem to be the important part.

"We also reserve the right to refuse any other item banned by law or that, in our opinion, may be harmful or dangerous to our customers or employees".
Badly packaged sharp things may be harmful or dangerous... Again, it's their legal right and they're still being very reasonable about it.

I don't actually read that as being about packaging. I read that as they will not ship illegal items which is fine. And that they reserve their right to also refuse other items if their opinion is that the item might be harmful or dangerous to their employees or customers. To me that sounds be more about content than packaging. I assume that is a legal safety valve to be able to refuse any clearly dangerous freak item that is not covered by normal safety rules and dangerous goods regulations.

Worth noting that this right is echoed by the USPS and many other carriers in various countries.
Despite Royal Mail now being a private company, they are regulated by Ofcom, and what you describe above is exactly what they're doing.

Ofcom is being regulated by some "Universal postal service" law so there is apparently a law. I assume any change done is fine by that.

In short, they'll still happily deliver the legal stuff, but you've got to stop it from skewering your Postie and be age-verified for legal reasons.
It's all good.

If UK law demands that only ages of 18 or above can buy or own a knife, other then folders under 3", then I agree that age verification makes complete sense for a shipment to be legal. Given the UK knife issues that might indeed be the law? That is sure different here, so to me it seemed like an opinionated limitation on shipping legal items regardless of how well packed they are. And I think that would be a slippery slope to start on as many items can be dangerous in various ways according to shifting opinions. Any broad changes to what is considered dangerous goods should go through the agencies which exists to define just that.

Anyway, knives can clearly still be shipped so not the biggie this thread started out as. All good 

[SAKTaschenmesser]

Please correct me if I’m wrong, the way I read it:

Post Office Counters (the high street post office) - neither domestic nor international allowed.

Royal Mail (the carrier) - domestic allowed if you use click and collect and age verification. International not allowed.

Quote: International destinations - Not allowed in the mail


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MichaelGT83]

RELAX!!!

You CAN still send legal bladed items, so long as you meet the conditions specified.
This is on Royal Fail's own website:

https://www.royalmail.com/sites/royalmail.com/files/2024-03/bladed-items-sharp-objects-weapons-web-changes-rm-consumer-26-march-2024.pdf

Part of being in such a democracy is that we afford people the right to refuse a task that they feel would be too dangerous for them. In this case, Royal Fail are specific about which items are already illegal, but also follow with some very specific requirements for legal items, where the focus is primarily on keeping their employees safe.
There is no law that demands they ship such items and they are free to refuse anything they like, and yet they are still being pretty reasonable here.

Yep, that is perfectly reasonable when you see it written down. Mountains and molehills spring to mind.

[SurgeUk]

Greetings awl.

The April GAW arrived in Germany, safe and unmolested by any outside forces 

It was posted on the 8th May so not too bad 

Awl was declared accordingly (i.e. Penknife etc) so it doesn't appears to be an issue 

[Farmer X]

This thread got me to thinking. I know I've talked to SurgeUK and/or Tasky about various couriers operating in the UK. Maybe FedEx is an option? It's been my experience that they are completely unconcerned with age verification. I had a FedEx driver leave a case of wine by the door, and another handed me a package full of nicotine pouches without verifying my age. (Maybe I look middle-aged?) Of course, don't send anything via FedEx if you have serious worries about loss and/or breakage.

Maybe we in the States need to buy up parcels of land and set up housing for displaced and disgruntled MTo members.

[greenbear]

I have just looked at Royal Mail's website and they are still offering their "Age Verified" service. It has to be collected from you, rather than you going to a Post Office, but it still seems to be in place.

[Antti Lammi]

This seems to make sending SAK, MTs there even more complicated. Does MTs & SAKs count as sharp object or tools?

[dks]

certain newspapers constantly posting about "lawless London", for their own reasons, are not really helping with reasonable knife acceptance.

[chip]

I used to do a lot of mountain biking and was on a mtb forum when Royal Mail brought in rules about parcels containing liquids (and batteries I think)

And if I remember correctly parcels were randomly checked by being sent to Belfast to be X-rayed.
And parcels that contravened the rules were confiscated and then forwarded on to be sold at auction with the items that had got lost in the post and/or could not be delivered.

A few people on the forum I was on lost expensive bike forks this way and were fuming. The reason for this ban was apparently for staff safety. If that was the case why were they not disposed of in Belfast rather the continuing onwards to be sold.

At the time I could not believe this and after a little googling found posts on photography forums where people were up in arms because they had had expensive cameras confiscated due to the battery rule.

This was a long time ago so I think maybe before Royal Mail was privatised so it was the government doing this.

But I recently read somewhere (can’t remember where) that knives were being returned to sender if caught breaking the rules, so at least they were not being confiscated.

Edit: the forks could have been confiscated because they were judged to be pressurised (even if they had been aired down) as I said it was a long time ago.

[greenbear]

Items that are "confiscated" and then sold are in reality stolen. it is not legal for a private company to take the property of another person to sell without specific permission i.e. whilst in the care of the Royal Mail the item still belongs to the sender. The role of Royal Mail as a postal service is only to transport and deliver an item in their care from one location to another (during this process the item remains the property of the sender or, if bought from the sender, the property of the purchaser). This is why one can claim for lost items as, in effect, the customer is then being reimbursed for the value of the item by the Royal Mail "in whose care the item was placed".

Those folks who had hydraulic forks taken have a good case to take legal action to recover their losses from Royal Mail if they have not pursued reimbursement in the form of compensation through the Royal Mail's lost goods compensation scheme and I would strongly urge them to do so.

Interestingly if one challenges Royal Mail about such issues they will try and tell you differently but, the law is the law and it applies to Royal Mail in exactly the same way as with any other company of individual.

[chip]

You can only claim for lost items if you purchase insurance from Royal Mail first , which I always thought was a racket  as it was either lost due to their incompetence or stolen by a member of their staff..

When Royal Mail was confiscating and selling items it was not a private company as such as it was owned by the uk government, what difference that made if any I don’t know.