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Vintage SAK Owners Club 43517

Sr. Member Posts: 463
Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #840 on: June 17, 2019, 05:59:13 PM »
from 1987:
(Image removed from quote.)

And yeah, very funny names.  Going through all the Hoffritz stuff here, it's strange how they generally followed all the 'standard' US market names...until they didn't c. '74...and wow.

My favorite so far is that their 84mm Master Craftsman #136 was actually called that back in the '60s.  :D   And the 91mm 136U was simultaneously called a Craftsman #2236.  I long suspected that too, but also found that yesterday in the 1960 catalog.  Numbers for both stayed the same in the '68 catalog, but the names aren't used.

But this has gotta be my favorite thing to find:
You are right, here are pics for illustration ;)

But they called lately 84mm Master Craftsman ... Explorer
Global Moderator No Life Club Posts: 2,600
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #841 on: June 17, 2019, 06:34:26 PM »
But this has gotta be my favorite thing to find:
Oh Dear   :facepalm:

Maybe for the Australian market?   ???    :pok:   
Hero Member Posts: 856
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #842 on: June 17, 2019, 06:54:59 PM »
Oh Dear   :facepalm:

Maybe for the Australian market?   ???    :pok:   

 :rofl: :rofl:   :ahhh :ahhh


You are right, here are pics for illustration ;)
(Image removed from quote.)
But they called lately 84mm Master Craftsman ... Explorer (Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

And then in '79 the Hoff  'Explorer' grows to 91mm and numbered F11037...all crazy.  I still need to find one of those.

I'm also sure the catalog info lagged the production style a bit and didn't always get updated with new photo layouts. The '79 updated styles with the stainless Hoff inlays show up first with late '75/'76 parts. Easiest parts to ID are the small scissor screw, and confirmed with the shield inlay.  So I think the '77 catalog wasn't updated in time, which would be typical of most catalog photos.

Sr. Member Posts: 463
Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #843 on: June 20, 2019, 01:12:17 PM »
And then in '79 the Hoff  'Explorer' grows to 91mm and numbered F11037...all crazy.  I still need to find one of those.

So Victorinox didn't produce 84mm Master Craftsman after 1978.
BTW here are both sizes together:




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hero Member Posts: 827

Ivo be

***** * *
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #844 on: June 20, 2019, 03:24:07 PM »
This one is a WENGER from late 60' or early 70' , can't find it in any catalog , in should be in the 70' catalog but it is not.

The Vikings say "when your battle axe is to short do one step forward"
Hero Member Posts: 856
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #845 on: June 20, 2019, 08:21:56 PM »
So Victorinox didn't produce 84mm Master Craftsman after 1978.
BTW here are both sizes together:
(Image removed from quote.)

I suspect main line production stopped for 84mm Master Craftsman by/before '76 based on the '76 dealer catalog showing the Fish Scaler version. '78 end date could be right for the Hoffritz versions. My guess is whenever the 84mm metal saws ran out.  My latest (Hoffritz) is c. '76 production.  After that any Hoffritz should have an inlay.

I still need to find a date for when the T&T was 'normally' included on the 91mm versions. Seeing yours makes me think it could be '65-'66.
No Life Club Posts: 1,342
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #846 on: June 20, 2019, 08:37:19 PM »
It looks like 84mm Super Tinker with LNF is not so common as 84mm Climber small LNF What do you think?
 (Image removed from quote.)

Very nice find. This is only the third one of these I've ever seen. ColoSwiss had one with MOP scales and I have a red scaled version with bail (that I got from ColoSwiss for a SwissChamp XL). 145ka for yours, 145kaU for mine. All look to be from around the same time period (late 1960s) but with different variants could be three separate production runs. Which would make you think there were more of them out there, but no... they're one of the rarest post WWII 84mm knives.
Sr. Member Posts: 463
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #847 on: June 20, 2019, 08:39:49 PM »
Very nice find. This is only the third one of these I've ever seen. ColoSwiss had one with MOP scales and I have a red scaled version with bail (that I got from ColoSwiss for a SwissChamp XL). 145ka for yours, 145kaU for mine. All look to be from around the same time period (late 1960s) but with different variants could be three separate production runs. Which would make you think there were more of them out there, but no... they're one of the rarest post WWII 84mm knives.
Thanks jazzbass
No Life Club Posts: 1,342
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #848 on: June 20, 2019, 09:20:41 PM »
I suspect main line production stopped for 84mm Master Craftsman by/before '76 based on the '76 dealer catalog showing the Fish Scaler version. '78 end date could be right for the Hoffritz versions. My guess is whenever the 84mm metal saws ran out.  My latest (Hoffritz) is c. '76 production.  After that any Hoffritz should have an inlay.

The newest 136kmaU (84mm Master Craftsman) I've ever seen dates to about c. 1972/73. This is from a sample size of about 50. The earliest I've seen is c. 1960 with hidden rivets and the large triangular awl. 1974 seems to be when Victorinox really made a massive change in their product lines and philosphy - revamping all of the 91mm products (2.7mm > 2.4mm blades, clip point to spear point, dropping the LNF), changing some stuff on the 93mm lines (Elsener > Victorinox), and really starting to de-emphasize the 84mm and position it as more of a kid/economy product vs. just being slightly smaller variants of the 91mm line. Post 1974 you almost never see and 4 and 5 layer 84mm knives with the exception of a couple special runs, and 3 layer 84mm are all but gone by the early 1980s.

84mm metal saws were still used in special runs through the 1980s (I have an 84mm Grand Prix small from c. 1986), and 84mm scissors were still used in a handful of small runs in the early 90s, but then they to go the way of the dodo.

I still need to find a date for when the T&T was 'normally' included on the 91mm versions. Seeing yours makes me think it could be '65-'66.

I think you're correct with c. 1966. In the period 1962-1969 there's a major change to the wood saw from a 29 tooth asymmetric style (29TA) to a 29 tooth symmetric design (29TS - the current design). Numbers suggest that this change happened c. 1966. When you look at Master Crafsman knives from this period, almost every knife with a 29TA saw = no T&T, and almost every knife with a 29TS saw = T&T.
Hero Member Posts: 856
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #849 on: June 20, 2019, 11:42:22 PM »
The newest 136kmaU (84mm Master Craftsman) I've ever seen dates to about c. 1972/73. This is from a sample size of about 50. The earliest I've seen is c. 1960 with hidden rivets and the large triangular awl. 1974 seems to be when Victorinox really made a massive change in their product lines and philosphy - revamping all of the 91mm products (2.7mm > 2.4mm blades, clip point to spear point, dropping the LNF), changing some stuff on the 93mm lines (Elsener > Victorinox), and really starting to de-emphasize the 84mm and position it as more of a kid/economy product vs. just being slightly smaller variants of the 91mm line. Post 1974 you almost never see and 4 and 5 layer 84mm knives with the exception of a couple special runs, and 3 layer 84mm are all but gone by the early 1980s.

84mm metal saws were still used in special runs through the 1980s (I have an 84mm Grand Prix small from c. 1986), and 84mm scissors were still used in a handful of small runs in the early 90s, but then they to go the way of the dodo.

Thanks for the reply jazzbass.  But I think there's pretty solid proof in two Hoffritz catalogs that the 84mm 'Master Craftsman'/Hoffritz 'Explorer' 11037 was produced outside of '74-'77. I dated my knife to c. '76 before seeing the Hoffritz catalogs posted by minichamp.

From the '77 Hoffritz catalog:


I certainly believe that your dates are correct for main line production, but Hoffritz knives are regularly or often exceptions.  The main things that make me think my later copy is '76 are the 'gray' double leaf scissor spring, H/VSSR tang stamps (instead of HSS which I would expect if it was earlier and later would get H/SSR), machining of the awl, proportions of the tweezer head and shrinkage of the cellidor. It also does not side-by-side to my +PAT copy (HSS/VOS, black single leaf, symmetrical tooth wood saw, etc.)


I think you're correct with c. 1966. In the period 1962-1969 there's a major change to the wood saw from a 29 tooth asymmetric style (29TA) to a 29 tooth symmetric design (29TS - the current design). Numbers suggest that this change happened c. 1966. When you look at Master Crafsman knives from this period, almost every knife with a 29TA saw = no T&T, and almost every knife with a 29TS saw = T&T.

Then that's just a good guesstimate on my part! I certainly don't have many samples from this era.  Adding them gets progressively more expensive for *any* of the Craftsman 136x variants!

My current focus in this era is trying to figure out when the wood saw polishing got dropped and aluminum 'bird head' spacers got dropped for good.

Thanks again for your reply. I've read your posts back into the 2015 range before I started posting here, and appreciate any of your input.
Sr. Member Posts: 463
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #850 on: June 21, 2019, 03:20:57 PM »
There are another two knives I've not seen often: 84mm "Hiker" and ""Camper" small, mod. 137kU and 237k. Who of you has such knives?

"Camper small" 237k was shown in 1940s catalogs
No Life Club Posts: 1,342
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #851 on: June 21, 2019, 04:39:08 PM »
There are another two knives I've not seen often: 84mm "Hiker" and ""Camper" small, mod. 137kU and 237k. Who of you has such knives?

I have both. The small Camper 237k was a regular catalog model and actually a pretty common model pre-1950. It shows up with some frequency until about 1970 and then... nothing. I have several including a 4 pin version from pre-1920 (in rough shape unfortunately).

The Hiker Small is an interesting one. It doesn't ever seem to be a regular catalog model, but I have seen a few that appear to be special runs from the late 1940s (crab claw can opener, etc) through the 1960s. Here's one I found NIB that was clearly a special order from the mid 1960s:



The thing I like about these models is that they are very unusual but you could get them made today if you wanted. None of the parts in these knives are out of production.
Sr. Member Posts: 463
Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #852 on: June 21, 2019, 05:07:25 PM »
Thanks for the answer jazzbass. Nice to see your new picture , hope you keep them safe now
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 07:20:04 PM by jnoxyd »
Newbie Posts: 40
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #853 on: June 22, 2019, 05:57:17 PM »
Very nice find. This is only the third one of these I've ever seen. ColoSwiss had one with MOP scales and I have a red scaled version with bail (that I got from ColoSwiss for a SwissChamp XL). 145ka for yours, 145kaU for mine. All look to be from around the same time period (late 1960s) but with different variants could be three separate production runs. Which would make you think there were more of them out there, but no... they're one of the rarest post WWII 84mm knives.

Here`s another one with original sheet, produced for General Motors, end of the 50-ies.
Full Member Posts: 159
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #854 on: June 23, 2019, 12:12:36 AM »
Here`s another one with original sheet, produced for General Motors, end of the 50-ies.
It's a beautiful SAK. Thanks for posting this image. I don't have this model, unfortunately, but here is a first generation Hiker small of the kind mentioned above by JAZZBASS.
Full Member Posts: 159
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #855 on: June 23, 2019, 11:17:55 PM »
I just posted links to several Victorinox catalog compilations in the catalogs thread. I find it intriguing how some of the recent discussion here seems to be reflected in differences that can be observed between the "Gesamt-Katalog bis 1970" and the "Gesamt-Katalog bis 1980." The attached image shows, side by side, the catalog page with the list of Victoria officer's knife models from the "Gesamt-Katalog bis 1970" (I'm guessing that the actual page is from the early 1960's) and the corresponding page from the "Gesamt-Katalog bis 1980" (I'm guessing that the actual page is from the early 1970's).

Most of the changes involve models getting manually deleted in the newer catalog. I believe that this reflects the withdrawal of these models in the early 1970's or slightly before then. One can see, in particular, the withdrawal of most 84mm models with more than two layers (with the notable exception of the three layer models with scissors), as discussed above by JAZZBASS. There are also some other subtle differences, such as the fact that model 136mU in the older catalog is replaced by model 136maU in the newer one (something that was also discussed above).
Hero Member Posts: 856
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #856 on: June 24, 2019, 12:50:53 AM »
I just posted links to several Victorinox catalog compilations in the catalogs thread. I find it intriguing how some of the recent discussion here seems to be reflected in differences that can be observed between the "Gesamt-Katalog bis 1970" and the "Gesamt-Katalog bis 1980." The attached image shows, side by side, the catalog page with the list of Victoria officer's knife models from the "Gesamt-Katalog bis 1970" (I'm guessing that the actual page is from the early 1960's) and the corresponding page from the "Gesamt-Katalog bis 1980" (I'm guessing that the actual page is from the early 1970's).

Most of the changes involve models getting manually deleted in the newer catalog. I believe that this reflects the withdrawal of these models in the early 1970's or slightly before then. One can see, in particular, the withdrawal of most 84mm models with more than two layers (with the notable exception of the three layer models with scissors), as discussed above by JAZZBASS. There are also some other subtle differences, such as the fact that model 136mU in the older catalog is replaced by model 136maU in the newer one (something that was also discussed above).

Excellent!  Am I being thick, or might the documents be Jan '69 and comparing Jan '69 to July '71?  :dunno:
Hero Member Posts: 856
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #857 on: June 24, 2019, 12:54:18 AM »
On the first/left doc, it would be nice to have the pics that correlate to:  "the 12 illustrated models" and "the other 24 master-selling models"
Hero Member Posts: 856
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #858 on: June 24, 2019, 12:55:36 AM »
Here`s another one with original sheet, produced for General Motors, end of the 50-ies.

Very, very nice example!   :like: Could I ask for pictures of the top and ends?
Full Member Posts: 159
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #859 on: June 24, 2019, 03:05:47 AM »
might the documents be Jan '69 and comparing Jan '69 to July '71?  :dunno:
Probably not. While I don't know what the numbers are, I don't think that they designate dates (also XII isn't 7 and the right page doesn't seem to be doing by itself any kind of comparison). Moreover, the theory about 136mU being replaced by 136maU around 1966 suggests that the left page is from before 1966.

On the first/left doc, it would be nice to have the pics that correlate to:  "the 12 illustrated models" and "the other 24 master-selling models"
???  A picture of "the 12 illustrated models" is precisely the content of the preceding page in each of the actual PDF Gesamt-Katalog documents. I'm not familiar with any picture of "the other 24 best-selling models."
Hero Member Posts: 856
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #860 on: June 24, 2019, 04:43:06 AM »
Probably not. While I don't know what the numbers are, I don't think that they designate dates (also XII isn't 7 and the right page doesn't seem to be doing by itself any kind of comparison). Moreover, the theory about 136mU being replaced by 136maU around 1966 suggests that the left page is from before 1966.

 :facepalm:  Typing before thinking again!  Even if I said 'December'...still doesn't really fit with the 136x example as discussed.

???  A picture of "the 12 illustrated models" is precisely the content of the preceding page in each of the actual PDF Gesamt-Katalog documents. I'm not familiar with any picture of "the other 24 best-selling models."

Oops, again.  Counted 13 on the page and figured it was the wrong picture. And now see that the 24 aren't pictured.
Sr. Member Posts: 463
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #861 on: June 26, 2019, 08:08:25 AM »
Returning to 84mm Master Craftsman:
Three wood saw types:





Last one has Phillips without file.
Hero Member Posts: 856
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #862 on: June 26, 2019, 06:32:35 PM »
Nice set, jnoxyd! 

I'd say the first one is late '50s/early '60s. Just because it could be '60/'61 too.

I think the middle one is mid-60's at the earliest. Pretty sure after say '63-'64. Scissor spring isn't silver, saw isn't polished, and the tweezer doesn't look nickel silver in the pic. Good chance after '66 since it's a Hoffritz.

The third one could be into the early '70s. Like '70 or '71 construction. And again, possibly later because Hoffritz.I have one almost exactly like that, but with the file on the phillips.

The one I have that is c. '76 is H/VSSR and the newer 'smooth'/square phillips. In 91mm, those tang stamps are used in the '73 to early '76 range.

.......

Craftsman pre-'51 and c. '51 US. PAT. PEND.






Hero Member Posts: 856
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #863 on: June 26, 2019, 06:36:40 PM »
And I should have asked what 'bird head' spacer is on the middle one.  I suspect nickel silver and not aluminum.  I'd expect aluminum on early '60s with hidden awls.
No Life Club Posts: 1,342
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #864 on: June 26, 2019, 06:42:25 PM »
Here`s another one with original sheet, produced for General Motors, end of the 50-ies.
That knife is fantastic! Is this in your collection? I have some questions if so.
No Life Club Posts: 1,342
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #865 on: June 26, 2019, 06:46:38 PM »
Returning to 84mm Master Craftsman:
Three wood saw types:
(Image removed from quote.)

Great picture. From this era you're only missing one variation - the very hard to find 25T asymmetric polished. I have that in a Camper Small, Artisan and Huntsman Small from the early 60s (small awl). It's weird because it's almost like they went 35TAP > 25TAP > 35TAM > 25TSM*.

(T = tooth, A = asymmetric, S = symmetric, P = polished, M = machined)
No Life Club Posts: 1,342
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #866 on: June 26, 2019, 06:47:36 PM »
And I should have asked what 'bird head' spacer is on the middle one.  I suspect nickel silver and not aluminum.  I'd expect aluminum on early '60s with hidden awls.

I've seen you asking about the pen blade spacer - what exactly would you like to know about these?

BTW - have you posted pics of your 136kmaU from 1976? Love to see those - that's the latest one of these I know of.
Hero Member Posts: 856
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #867 on: June 26, 2019, 07:22:23 PM »
I've seen you asking about the pen blade spacer - what exactly would you like to know about these?
I'm trying to use it as a tool to date knives in the mid-'60s. Use of aluminum seems pretty consistent for indicating early 60's and nickel silver used exclusively after some date.  It seems to differ enough from other mid-'60s features like saw teeth and polishing and the earlier tweezer head material change over.

BTW - have you posted pics of your 136kmaU from 1976? Love to see those - that's the latest one of these I know of.

This is what I could find quickly. I might have more in the Hoffritz threads.


Back is VSSR stamped


Top knife here, obviously:
No Life Club Posts: 1,342
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #868 on: June 26, 2019, 08:10:37 PM »
I'm trying to use it as a tool to date knives in the mid-'60s. Use of aluminum seems pretty consistent for indicating early 60's and nickel silver used exclusively after some date.  It seems to differ enough from other mid-'60s features like saw teeth and polishing and the earlier tweezer head material change over.

In the taxonomy I developed for my collection, I call the time period from 62-69 the "late vintage" or LVNT period. In the LVNT period there is a change from thin 1.0mm aluminum pen blade spacer to nickel silver. In general this coincided with the change from polished to machined saws and silver > black scissor springs.

Thin aluminum spacers come into being in the last part of the "mid vintage" (57-62) period. Prior to that they used a thicker 1.5mm spacer that was either aluminum or nickel silver in no way that seems to indicate preference. The thicker spacer goes away when the main/pen blade backspring is redesigned c 1960 to go from a design that was thicker at the pen blade side to one that was of uniform thickness (roughly 2.75mm).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 08:27:56 PM by jazzbass »
Full Member Posts: 159
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #869 on: June 26, 2019, 08:29:27 PM »
It's weird because it's almost like they went 35TAP > 25TAP > 35TAM > 25TSM*.
???  I'm a little confused by this statement. Are you proposing that they actually did something else? If so, what?

 

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