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Vintage SAK Owners Club 46685

Hero Member Posts: 509
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #960 on: September 11, 2019, 04:40:03 PM »
No-nick metal file on Motorist. It was mentioned by Jazzbass recently as “short lived prod change”  ;)
I like this “tip opening” for metal file.


No Life Club Posts: 1,278
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #961 on: September 11, 2019, 07:11:54 PM »
No-nick metal file on Motorist. It was mentioned by Jazzbass recently as “short lived prod change”  ;)
I like this “tip opening” for metal file.
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)(Image removed from quote.)

Works well on the 84mm, wonder why they changed to the nail nick?  Very nice 👍👍👍.           :cheers:
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,971
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #962 on: September 11, 2019, 09:22:03 PM »
Very nice jnoxyd  :cheers:
No Life Club Posts: 1,278
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #963 on: September 11, 2019, 10:20:03 PM »
Thanks Rr, Tony and Vicman......I get sidetracked sometimes (way too often) but the 84mm are what I really enjoy.   :hatsoff:
No Life Club Posts: 1,349
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #964 on: September 18, 2019, 09:58:56 PM »
No-nick metal file on Motorist. It was mentioned by Jazzbass recently as “short lived prod change”  ;)
I like this “tip opening” for metal file.

I love that file. No idea why Victorinox didn't like it, but it didn't last very long. The interesting thing about these are it seems like Victorinox experimented with the design around 1960/61 on "Victoria" line knives (I have this file in a couple large awl Champions and blue Fischermesser), decided they weren't fans of the design, and said "nope, go back to the old design" What do we do with the unused files we have here? "[shrug] use them in the Elinox line". The only post 62 "small awl" knives I've ever seen with these are Elinox knives - I have a couple Motorists just like this with the same - but I've yet to see a "small awl" Victoria knife with it.

No Life Club Posts: 4,650
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #965 on: September 21, 2019, 10:31:26 PM »
One of my latest, I think it is an older Tourist.  Victoria on back tang.

Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,102
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #966 on: September 21, 2019, 11:43:32 PM »
One of my latest, I think it is an older Tourist.  Victoria on back tang.


Very nice FB! :like: :tu: :tu:
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,971
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #967 on: September 22, 2019, 03:01:26 AM »
One of my latest, I think it is an older Tourist.  Victoria on back tang.
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)
Very nice  :like: :cheers:
No Life Club Posts: 4,650
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #968 on: September 22, 2019, 03:11:03 AM »
Thank you Vicman and RR!  :cheers:
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,673 \o/
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #969 on: September 22, 2019, 07:21:26 AM »
That's a real beauty FB!
Hero Member Posts: 509
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #970 on: October 04, 2019, 08:45:12 PM »
What do you think about blank main blade stamp on 1950s knives? This Huntsman LNF has VSS front side stamp and blank back one. Wood saw has 27 teeth and nail nick.

Here's it together with other 1950s knives.

Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,971
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #971 on: October 04, 2019, 09:01:55 PM »
Thats a great Huntsman!  :drool: :cheers:
No Life Club Posts: 1,349
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #972 on: October 04, 2019, 09:04:46 PM »
What do you think about blank main blade stamp on 1950s knives? This Huntsman LNF has VSS front side stamp and blank back one. Wood saw has 27 teeth and nail nick.

Seems to be a short-lived stamp used either concurrently with the early Armee Suisse models or in a short transition time between the "Armee Suisse/VaSS" stamps and the "VSS/VO" stamps. Definitely the shortest lived and hardest to find of the stamps in this era. I personally think they're a transition stamp as you do see some with the "US PAT PEND" can opener. Dates the knife to the beginning of the early vintage era, say 1953 or so.

The progression of stamps in the early vintage (EVNT) era from 1951-1957 seems to go:

1. Armee Suisse/Victoria Switzerland Stainless
2. Victoria Switzerland Stainless
3. [Large] Victorinox Switzerland Stainless/Victoria Officier
4. [Small] Victorinox Switzerland Stainless/Victoria Officier
5. Victorinox Switzerland Stainless Rostfrei/Victoria Officier Suisse

Stamps #3 and #4 make of the bulk of the knives from this era. #5 is really the stamp they started using with the mid-vintage hidden rivet knives in 1957/58, with a bit of over lap in both directions.
No Life Club Posts: 1,106
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #973 on: October 05, 2019, 12:17:49 AM »
What do you think about blank main blade stamp on 1950s knives? This Huntsman LNF has VSS front side stamp and blank back one. Wood saw has 27 teeth and nail nick.
(Image removed from quote.)
Here's it together with other 1950s knives.
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

My guess is that it *has to* be '53+ with the +PAT opener and VaSS tang. Presumably after the patent was granted in Feb. '53.

It does make me wonder if this knife that MiniChamp posted in your US.PAT. PEND thread is fake or just consuming old parts in an advertising knife built mid-'50s.



I am wondering how the machining on your Huntsman's can opener compares to the US.PAT.PEND versions...or any other 'construction' similarities they might have.
Full Member Posts: 177
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #974 on: October 05, 2019, 04:51:37 AM »
What do you think about blank main blade stamp on 1950s knives? This Huntsman LNF has VSS front side stamp and blank back one. Wood saw has 27 teeth and nail nick.

Seems to be a short-lived stamp used either concurrently with the early Armee Suisse models or in a short transition time between the "Armee Suisse/VaSS" stamps and the "VSS/VO" stamps. Definitely the shortest lived and hardest to find of the stamps in this era. I personally think they're a transition stamp as you do see some with the "US PAT PEND" can opener. Dates the knife to the beginning of the early vintage era, say 1953 or so.
I'm a little confused here.  :think:  I have seen this stamp on earlier SAKs. The earliest being a fiber-scaled SAK that was shown by Jnoxyd in the "Evolution of wood saws" thread. (It's the second from the top in the following two images; more images of it can be seen in the original posts by Jnoxyd.)




It also occurs on SAKs with the crab-claw can opener. The attached images show two such SAKs (they are from internet sales; the first two show one such SAK and the last two show another).

Quote
The progression of stamps in the early vintage (EVNT) era from 1951-1957 seems to go:

1. Armee Suisse/Victoria Switzerland Stainless
2. Victoria Switzerland Stainless
3. [Large] Victorinox Switzerland Stainless/Victoria Officier
4. [Small] Victorinox Switzerland Stainless/Victoria Officier
5. Victorinox Switzerland Stainless Rostfrei/Victoria Officier Suisse

Stamps #3 and #4 make of the bulk of the knives from this era. #5 is really the stamp they started using with the mid-vintage hidden rivet knives in 1957/58, with a bit of over lap in both directions.
Interesting. Can you explain what are the differences between #3 and #4? Thanks!
No Life Club Posts: 1,349
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #975 on: October 05, 2019, 07:11:01 AM »
I'm a little confused here.  :think:  I have seen this stamp on earlier SAKs.

Oh yeah, it's definitely used on earlier knives too. For this thread I was really just addressing when it shows up in the early vintage 1951-1957 knives.

The earliest being a fiber-scaled SAK that was shown by Jnoxyd in the "Evolution of wood saws" thread. (It's the second from the top in the following two images; more images of it can be seen in the original posts by Jnoxyd.)

It also occurs on SAKs with the crab-claw can opener.

Yes, you do see this stamp used a bit in the post war era knives from 1946-1951. Actually more often than EVNT knives. The fiber scale knife I suspect is a repair using a blade from the late 40s. By all accounts, the "VaSS" on the front of these two different runs - the ones from the PWAR era and the ones from the EVNT era - are simply the regular VaSS stamping typically done on the back of the tang done on the front. If you figure that most of this work was done by hand at the time, it would have been pretty easy to do. Why'd they do it? That's all speculation as far as I know. There are enough of these in both eras that you think it's not an accident. Maybe the VaSS blades were repair blades and these are all repair jobs? Maybe they were made for a specific market? Honestly I have no idea why they were made this way.

Interesting. Can you explain what are the differences between #3 and #4? Thanks!

How about a picture - Large VxSS/VO on top, two versions of the Small VxSS/VO on bottom. The front stamp of the large VxSS is stamped in a sans-serif font and the VO on the back is quite large - usually the bottom of "Officier" is cut off. While putting this image together I discovered that the Small VxSS stamping comes in two varieties: Small Type I where the front VxSS uses a much more precise serif font for the VxSS, and Small Type II that uses a smaller, less precise sans-serif font for the VxSS. Both versions appear to use the same smaller, more precise VO stamp on the back that is not cut off when the blade is open. (Note that the VO stamp in the lower left looks cut off in the picture but that is just the perspective)



« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 07:37:33 AM by jazzbass »
Full Member Posts: 177
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #976 on: October 05, 2019, 08:49:02 AM »
For this thread I was really just addressing when it shows up in the early vintage 1951-1957 knives.
Thanks for clarifying that.

Quote
The fiber scale knife I suspect is a repair using a blade from the late 40s.
I was actually hoping for you saying something like that because the wood saw on this knife also looks like one from the end of the PWAR era. It certainly simplifies life to consider it to be a repair job that mixes parts from different periods (something that I also suspected before). On the other hand, the range of years that is assigned to the VaSS stamp in Ulli's table is 1930-1950, so I can't help wondering if he didn't have a good reason to think that this stamp was used long before the late 1940's.

Quote
How about a picture - Large VxSS/VO on top, two versions of the Small VxSS/VO on bottom.
Thanks!!! I didn't know that these variations could be used for dating. Now I have some homework.  :D
Hero Member Posts: 509
Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #977 on: October 05, 2019, 09:19:50 AM »
Quote
kamakiri  :
I am wondering how the machining on your Huntsman's can opener compares to the US.PAT.PEND versions...or any other 'construction' similarities they might have.
It  looks very close to previous and past can openers just a bit less polished:

Hero Member Posts: 509
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #978 on: October 05, 2019, 11:06:48 AM »
Another blank stamp I have  is from late 1940s
No Life Club Posts: 1,106
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #979 on: October 05, 2019, 07:42:38 PM »
It  looks very close to previous and past can openers just a bit less polished:
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)


 :cheers: Thanks for the pictures jnoxyd.  The +PAT stamp is probably the most definitive part of the can opener.  It is certainly of the first variation that I'd call v1a +PAT which is distinctive in font proportions, but I'd also make the subjective assignment of being early in the tooling cycle. I'd assign it '53 production unless something shows up that looks like it's produced earlier. 

The +PAT example on the right matches other mid-'50s knives that I have and have pictures of. It's the same font as the knife in question, but there are some subtle tooling updates that I think are pretty clear and very visible in your pic. I'd call these v1b.

I don't have a changeover date stipulated for v2 +PAT stamps but it's on all the '57+ knives I own.
No Life Club Posts: 1,349
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #980 on: October 05, 2019, 09:19:15 PM »
I don't have a changeover date stipulated for v2 +PAT stamps but it's on all the '57+ knives I own.

Pretty much right at 1957, although there is the typical "random old/new part in a new/old knife" thing going on.

Here's how I look at it. Lots of changes happen in the transition from the early vintage period knives (EVNT: new openers, exposed rivets, 1951-1957) and the mid vintage period (MVNT: large awl, hidden rivets, 1957-1961). The typical EVNT knife from the latter part of the period look like this Huntsman - Small VSS/VO main stamp, large +PAT:



Then we switch to the MVNT period in 1957, where the typical knife from the early part of this period looks like this Huntsman - large awl, hidden rivets, large VSSR/VOS stamp on unpolished tang, and small +PAT.



Statistically speaking, all of these changes seem to happen around the same time because the majority (80%+) of knives from these periods look like these two. However, because this is a production factory and not a mint or anything like that, production overalaps do occur.

This is the first and probably most common one you see - EVNT knife with a typical MVNT main blade stamp. On all the knives I have and have seen in this configuration, the can opener is always a large +PAT:



Next, you do see a fair number of MVNT knives with the small VSS/VO stamped main blades. The majority of this variant (about 75%) also have the large +PAT can opener, like this Master Craftsman:



However, there are a small minority of knives that have the small +PAT in the MVNT knife with the older VSS/VO stamp, like this Climber Small:



My assertion has always been that these changed happened more-or-less at the same time, with some of the usual variations at transition time as old parts were used up. All of the MVNT knives above with older main blade/can openers are from very early in the MVNT period judging byt other design factors (the pen blade separator, the saws on the certain models, and the main blade backspring).
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 10:58:56 PM by jazzbass »
Full Member Posts: 177
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #981 on: October 06, 2019, 12:02:22 AM »
Here is one more SAK with the VaSS/blank stamp. A somewhat unusual Artisan. It has two (anodized) aluminum liners and three nickel-silver liners. Also, the can opener has no stamp.
No Life Club Posts: 1,349
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #982 on: October 06, 2019, 12:08:25 AM »
Here is one more SAK with the VaSS/blank stamp. A somewhat unusual Artisan. It has two (anodized) aluminum liners and three nickel-silver liners. Also, the can opener has no stamp.

Nice. I have pretty much that same knife (mixed up liners and everything). Mine has the US PAT PEND can opener.
Full Member Posts: 177
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #983 on: October 06, 2019, 12:49:56 AM »
Nice. I have pretty much that same knife (mixed up liners and everything). Mine has the US PAT PEND can opener.
Interesting. I keep wondering if the lack of a stamp on my can opener is a singular production error or that maybe they made some of these can openers without any stamp before they even made them with the US PAT PEND stamp. Since there are US PAT PEND can openers on SAKs with all nickel-silver liners, I tend to believe that a production error is more likely.
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,971
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #984 on: October 06, 2019, 04:44:47 AM »
Pretty much right at 1957, although there is the typical "random old/new part in a new/old knife" thing going on.

Here's how I look at it. Lots of changes happen in the transition from the early vintage period knives (EVNT: new openers, exposed rivets, 1951-1957) and the mid vintage period (MVNT: large awl, hidden rivets, 1957-1961). The typical EVNT knife from the latter part of the period look like this Huntsman - Small VSS/VO main stamp, large +PAT:

(Image removed from quote.)

Then we switch to the MVNT period in 1957, where the typical knife from the early part of this period looks like this Huntsman - large awl, hidden rivets, large VSSR/VOS stamp on unpolished tang, and small +PAT.

(Image removed from quote.)

Statistically speaking, all of these changes seem to happen around the same time because the majority (80%+) of knives from these periods look like these two. However, because this is a production factory and not a mint or anything like that, production overalaps do occur.

This is the first and probably most common one you see - EVNT knife with a typical MVNT main blade stamp. On all the knives I have and have seen in this configuration, the can opener is always a large +PAT:

(Image removed from quote.)

Next, you do see a fair number of MVNT knives with the small VSS/VO stamped main blades. The majority of this variant (about 75%) also have the large +PAT can opener, like this Master Craftsman:

(Image removed from quote.)

However, there are a small minority of knives that have the small +PAT in the MVNT knife with the older VSS/VO stamp, like this Climber Small:

(Image removed from quote.)

My assertion has always been that these changed happened more-or-less at the same time, with some of the usual variations at transition time as old parts were used up. All of the MVNT knives above with older main blade/can openers are from very early in the MVNT period judging byt other design factors (the pen blade separator, the saws on the certain models, and the main blade backspring).
Those are some nice SAK, especially that 56...my birth year!  :woohoo:
No Life Club Posts: 1,106
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #985 on: October 06, 2019, 06:17:22 PM »
Pretty much right at 1957, although there is the typical "random old/new part in a new/old knife" thing going on.

Here's how I look at it. Lots of changes happen in the transition from the early vintage period knives (EVNT: new openers, exposed rivets, 1951-1957) and the mid vintage period (MVNT: large awl, hidden rivets, 1957-1961). The typical EVNT knife from the latter part of the period look like this Huntsman - Small VSS/VO main stamp, large +PAT:

(Image removed from quote.)

Then we switch to the MVNT period in 1957, where the typical knife from the early part of this period looks like this Huntsman - large awl, hidden rivets, large VSSR/VOS stamp on unpolished tang, and small +PAT.

(Image removed from quote.)

Statistically speaking, all of these changes seem to happen around the same time because the majority (80%+) of knives from these periods look like these two. However, because this is a production factory and not a mint or anything like that, production overalaps do occur.

This is the first and probably most common one you see - EVNT knife with a typical MVNT main blade stamp. On all the knives I have and have seen in this configuration, the can opener is always a large +PAT:

(Image removed from quote.)

Next, you do see a fair number of MVNT knives with the small VSS/VO stamped main blades. The majority of this variant (about 75%) also have the large +PAT can opener, like this Master Craftsman:

(Image removed from quote.)

However, there are a small minority of knives that have the small +PAT in the MVNT knife with the older VSS/VO stamp, like this Climber Small:

(Image removed from quote.)

My assertion has always been that these changed happened more-or-less at the same time, with some of the usual variations at transition time as old parts were used up. All of the MVNT knives above with older main blade/can openers are from very early in the MVNT period judging byt other design factors (the pen blade separator, the saws on the certain models, and the main blade backspring).
Thanks for the response and excellent level of detail and documentation, jazzbass!  This is the kind of info that should be in the SAKWiki...or in a book.  ;)  :tu:  :cheers: I'll certainly be referring to it.

Here is one more SAK with the VaSS/blank stamp. A somewhat unusual Artisan. It has two (anodized) aluminum liners and three nickel-silver liners. Also, the can opener has no stamp.
:like:
Thanks for sharing the pic MiniChamp!  :tu:  You mentioned this knife in previous discussions and it's nice to see it.
No Life Club Posts: 4,650
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #986 on: October 06, 2019, 06:25:09 PM »
Is this one considered large +PAT or small?

No Life Club Posts: 1,106
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #987 on: October 06, 2019, 09:01:28 PM »
Is this one considered large +PAT or small?
(Image removed from quote.)

Looks like 'Large' or v1b.
No Life Club Posts: 1,349
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #988 on: October 06, 2019, 10:08:24 PM »
Interesting. I keep wondering if the lack of a stamp on my can opener is a singular production error or that maybe they made some of these can openers without any stamp before they even made them with the US PAT PEND stamp. Since there are US PAT PEND can openers on SAKs with all nickel-silver liners, I tend to believe that a production error is more likely.

I agree. I'd say the explanation was, from most likely to least likely:

1. Production error; the opener never got stamped in production
2. Production defect; the opener was stamped but lightly and the stamping was polished off
3. The can opener was replaced during a repair after 1971.

No Life Club Posts: 1,106
Re: Vintage SAK Owners Club
« Reply #989 on: October 06, 2019, 10:49:06 PM »
I think it's probably an error.  I doubt they'd issue a single one on purpose without either stamp during that time.

OOPS! - SAK Production Errors



This picture also proves that the tool is stamped separately from markings and that such errors are possible.  Wether loading was by hand or automatically fed from a hopper, errors like this would be common.  I think it's just a matter of QC for how many get through to assembly stations and ultimately end up leaving the factory.

 

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