Leatherman Signal - is LM making a survival multi?

[babola]

OK, I'm going to upset some people here, but for survival why would you need:
- Pliers
- Bit Drivers

So you can use it on other tools, devices, contraptions while outdoors or simply on your MTB adventures and/or when you get home, etc.

Also, LM would never drop pliers from their full sized tool     

[Syncop8r]

OK, I'm going to upset some people here, but for survival why would you need:
- Pliers
- Bit Drivers

So you can use it on other tools, devices, contraptions while outdoors or simply on your MTB adventures and/or when you get home, etc.

Also, LM would never drop pliers from their full sized tool 

In reality they will be used for all that, but is this a SURVIVAL tool or just an outdoor tool?

[Breezy12]

OK, I'm going to upset some people here, but for survival why would you need:
- Pliers
- Bit Drivers

So you can use it on other tools, devices, contraptions while outdoors or simply on your MTB adventures and/or when you get home, etc.

Also, LM would never drop pliers from their full sized tool 

In reality they will be used for all that, but is this a SURVIVAL tool or just an outdoor tool?

think of it this way... if you really are in a SURVIVAL situation, is it really going to hurt anything to have pliers on your MT? I'm sure I'd be able to come up with uses for them... I'd rather have them than not!

[babola]

OK, I'm going to upset some people here, but for survival why would you need:
- Pliers
- Bit Drivers

So you can use it on other tools, devices, contraptions while outdoors or simply on your MTB adventures and/or when you get home, etc.

Also, LM would never drop pliers from their full sized tool 

In reality they will be used for all that, but is this a SURVIVAL tool or just an outdoor tool?

MUT is a gun maintenance tool, but it comes with a knife, saw, bottle opener, strap cutter and a carabiner.

Leatherman NEVER EVER made an MT with its tool load dedicated for single environment or use.

[Lichtbote]

Please - make it with a fullsize serrated blade.

And don´t waste resources for any "fancy" steels, keep it simple. Use a 420/440C.

[AimlessWanderer]

OK, I'm going to upset some people here, but for survival why would you need:
- Pliers
- Bit Drivers

So you can use it on other tools, devices, contraptions while outdoors or simply on your MTB adventures and/or when you get home, etc.

Also, LM would never drop pliers from their full sized tool 

In reality they will be used for all that, but is this a SURVIVAL tool or just an outdoor tool?

Survival is just the marketting buzzword for woodland based improvised camping. Of course if it's true survival you'll have no idea what you are going to be working with, what you are going to need, what the hazards and risks are, and so on. Remember, Leatherman are NOT trying to produce a premium woods based tool, nor are they trying to make an anywhere survival tool, they ARE trying to make a popular high profit tool. This is a profit based design, not a function/survival based design. For example, what the hell use is a ceramic rod going to be if your blade has chipped out. Fine for touching up a blade thats doing regular work in a safe environment, but it's not going to repair damage from serious hard use in hostile conditions with a tired, disoriented and half panic riden user who is far from thinking straight.

If I was to make a prediction, it would be as close to a standard MUT as possible, therefore minimising stock inventory and eliminating the need for new dies/patterns/programming. Unfortunately this will likely mean that the tool will be too heavy for most people to carry on a regular basis, and will therefore not likely to be on their person in a survival scenario. Note, only packing it in a bag when going out for a camping trip in the woods is not survival, it's just additional weight that could have been used for a Bacho Laplander, fixed blade knife, and SAK. It will also most likely have (unfortunately again) the trademark Leatherman overly splayed grip which renders the tool grossly inefficient for anyone with a less than XXL hand size. No surprises there then ...

If we assure that this tool is based on MUT tools, the patent lists the following components, which will probably identical to those offered on the existing tool:

Pliers
Wire Cutters
CE blade locking knife
Carabiner
Hammer
Saw
Bottle Opener
Screwdriver Bit Driver
Pocket Clip

That is the vast bulk of a standard MUT. So what elements are they losing from the MUT and what other features are they introducing instead:

OUT:
Strap Cutter ??
Disassembly Punch
Bronze Carbon Scraper

IN:
Firestarter
Removable Ceramic Sharpening Steel
Can Opener
Whistle
Awl

If they replace the dissembly punch with the ceramic rod, and carbon scraper for the awl, they still have a whistle, can opener, and firestarter to add in place of a strap cutter ... unless they're using the space where the bit storage used to be, or making the tool even larger and heavier ... and so even less likely to be carried ... and even more awkward to use with normal sized hands too. Unlikely, as I suspect they'll want to retain as much of the MUT handle components as necessary, but it may happen.

Note also that the sharpening steel says removable, but the firestarter does not ... so maybe the firesteel is an integral part of the body, or a separate item altogether? Maybe the awl and can opener replace the two MUT tools, and some Bear Grylls type multipurpose sheath incorporates the whistle, and firestarter and holds the removable sharpening steel ...?

Of course the die-hard Leatherman fans will still love it, and might even buy it too if it isn't ridiculously expensive. Those with large hands will say it's a great tool, and might even incorporate it into their daily lives as their standard multitool. Anyone who has smaller hands, is tool-weight conscious, or isn't instantly convinced it must be good because of the branding, might just take a little more convincing ... so from that perspective, nothing has changed.

The sad thing is that without even seeing this tool, there's a good chance we could draw up a list of those who'll like/dislike this tool. Not sure if that's more a reflection on Leatherman or on us ....

[Syncop8r]

MUT is a gun maintenance tool, but it comes with a knife, saw, bottle opener, strap cutter and a carabiner.

Leatherman NEVER EVER made an MT with its tool load dedicated for single environment or use.

True. Although I would say it the other way around: the MUT is a multitool with gun-maintenance extras.

[babola]

MUT is a gun maintenance tool, but it comes with a knife, saw, bottle opener, strap cutter and a carabiner.

Leatherman NEVER EVER made an MT with its tool load dedicated for single environment or use.

True. Although I would say it the other way around: the MUT is a multitool with gun-maintenance extras.

So will be the Signal.

See my point?

[gadgetman7]

I'm afraid that it will be too heavy also. Didn't Leatherman say a while back that they were working on a civilian version of the MUT? I really don't like serrated or combo blades if it's the only knife I have and I may have to sharpen it in the field. (Been there, done that.) it really is a pain in the butt. I'd still prefer something with better edge holding than their 420 variants though.


Sent from Tracy Island

[Syncop8r]

MUT is a gun maintenance tool, but it comes with a knife, saw, bottle opener, strap cutter and a carabiner.

Leatherman NEVER EVER made an MT with its tool load dedicated for single environment or use.

True. Although I would say it the other way around: the MUT is a multitool with gun-maintenance extras.

So will be the Signal.

See my point?

Yes, and I agree with you. It's just not what I would have for "survival" though (I would have a SAK rather than a plier-based MT). But as Al says this is about how LM can tweak a design to sell a new product.

[Syncop8r]

I agree with pretty much everything you said Al.

It will also most likely have (unfortunately again) the trademark Leatherman overly splayed grip which renders the tool grossly inefficient for anyone with a less than XXL hand size. No surprises there then ...
 ... and even more awkward to use with normal sized hands too.

This is a form of selection; in a survival situation only those with big hands will prosper with their LM Signal (or in my case Wenger Ranger) and we will finally rid the world of those inferior small-handed people. 

[Monrogue]

Great analysis Al.  From what I've read here so far (and I know we don't know everything yet, and haven't seen it yet), it doesn't sound like one I'd get.  I understand that it likely isn't designed or aimed at a user like me.  Still can't wait to see it though

Sent from my XT901 using Tapatalk

[babola]

I agree with pretty much everything you said Al.

It will also most likely have (unfortunately again) the trademark Leatherman overly splayed grip which renders the tool grossly inefficient for anyone with a less than XXL hand size. No surprises there then ...
 ... and even more awkward to use with normal sized hands too.

This is a form of selection; in a survival situation only those with big hands will prosper with their LM Signal (or in my case Wenger Ranger) and we will finally rid the world of those inferior small-handed people. 

You bad boy, you scared Monrogue with your comment already 

[Syncop8r]

Didn't Leatherman say a while back that they were working on a civilian version of the MUT?

Given what Harley said about how few MUTs he has seen in the field, I wonder how many troops have it compared to civilian owners. Maybe the MUT already is a civilian tool (though not by design).

[AimlessWanderer]

I agree with pretty much everything you said Al.

It will also most likely have (unfortunately again) the trademark Leatherman overly splayed grip which renders the tool grossly inefficient for anyone with a less than XXL hand size. No surprises there then ...
 ... and even more awkward to use with normal sized hands too.

This is a form of selection; in a survival situation only those with big hands will prosper with their LM Signal (or in my case Wenger Ranger) and we will finally rid the world of those inferior small-handed people. 

  Despite having average sized hands, the tool I would be measuring this against (from my own personal perspective of what is useful for outdoor pursuits) would be my Rangergrip 90 ... still a handful due to the fat arse Wenger scales, but that's only because I've not had the heart to rip those scales off and make slimmer micarta ones yet 

[Lichtbote]

I´m no gun-nut and no survival nut, so i will probably not own any MUT variant.

On the other hand i don´t think any relevant numbers of owners will ever face a real survival situation. 

[AimlessWanderer]

I´m no gun-nut and no survival nut, so i will probably not own any MUT variant.

On the other hand i don´t think any relevant numbers of owners will ever face a real survival situation. 

Agreed! 

[Syncop8r]

I´m no gun-nut and no survival nut, so i will probably not own any MUT variant.

On the other hand i don´t think any relevant numbers of owners will ever face a real survival situation. 

Agreed! 

+1. Can we call it something like an "outdoor adventure multi" instead of survival multi then?

... still a handful due to the fat arse Wenger scales, but that's only because I've not had the heart to rip those scales off and make slimmer micarta ones yet 

I'm thinking wooden, maybe with a slot for a ferro rod. 

[AimlessWanderer]

... still a handful due to the fat arse Wenger scales, but that's only because I've not had the heart to rip those scales off and make slimmer micarta ones yet 

I'm thinking wooden, maybe with a slot for a ferro rod. 

  I thought micarta because it has more strength than wood in a thinner slice. To do wood, I think I'd have to make the scales too fat all over to get any benefit, plus I'd lose the hi-vis appearance  A nice grippy G10 would probably be perfect actually

[gadgetman7]

I doubt I'd notice any real advantage over a Charge or a Wave. I've used both for Search and Rescue they work great. I'd love something lighter but I'll probably get one anyway. I'm weak that way, but not a true collector like Chako.


Sent from Tracy Island

[Syncop8r]

I doubt I'd notice any real advantage over a Charge or a Wave. I've used both for Search and Rescue they work great.

I would be interested to know which particular tools on them you use the most.

[AimlessWanderer]

I´m no gun-nut and no survival nut, so i will probably not own any MUT variant.

On the other hand i don´t think any relevant numbers of owners will ever face a real survival situation. 

Agreed! 

+1. Can we call it something like an "outdoor adventure multi" instead of survival multi then?

If the marketting departments weren't all pandering to the enduring "survival" craze, that would make a lot more sense, and it would be more inclusive of the guys that use 4x4s or boats or other mechanical equipment in their outdoor pursuits rather than just the "I just survived a night camping in the woods with several hundred quids worth of camping equipment" crowd

[AimlessWanderer]

I doubt I'd notice any real advantage over a Charge or a Wave. I've used both for Search and Rescue they work great.

I would be interested to know which particular tools on them you use the most.

Yeah, same here 

[babola]

I doubt I'd notice any real advantage over a Charge or a Wave. I've used both for Search and Rescue they work great. I'd love something lighter but I'll probably get one anyway. I'm weak that way, but not a true collector like Chako.


Sent from Tracy Island

Hand on heart, just about any mid and full size multi-tool designed in the last 10 years, would do.

It's this place and its patrons who tend to venture a little further in various MT discussions, some of merit and some of pure phylosophical nature.

Guilty as charged. 

[gadgetman7]

I doubt I'd notice any real advantage over a Charge or a Wave. I've used both for Search and Rescue they work great.

I would be interested to know which particular tools on them you use the most.

I use the plain edge knife to cut different things - most rather mundane like paracord, MRE and boxes. Occasionally I've had to cut dogs out of tangled ropes or whittle a branch to poke things.

I use the screwdrivers and pliers to adjust different kinds of gear and to open battery compartments among other things.

I rarely use the saw but have sawed branches with it. (See above.

I never really been lost for any length of time, so over several days I may have found a use for other things. So, I'd likely not use it for survival but a lighter weight tool with good knife steel would be nice.


Sent from Tracy Island

[JAfromMn]

Mut

multi-function hand tool including two or more of the following tool elements--pliers, wire cutter, crimper, carabiner, hammer, knife, saw, file, scraper, bit driver with interchangeable bits, punch, screwdriver, awl, can opener, bottle opener, scissors, and leather and fabric sheath

Singal

Multi-function hand tools comprised of any combination of pliers, wire cutters, combo edge knife blade with a liner lock, wood saw, screwdriver bit driver, bottle opener, can opener, awl, fire starter, whistle, hammer, carabiner, pocket clip, lanyard hole, and removable ceramic sharpening stick.

Hmm
------------------------------------------------------------

One more thought
this thing is going to be a brick but if I don't carry all the stuff that the tool has it should just about equil out weight wise.

[parnass]

Mut

multi-function hand tool including two or more of the following tool elements...

Singal

Multi-function hand tools comprised of any combination of ...

The wording in the Signal is "tools" vs. "tool."   Maybe this refers to a modular tool of separate pieces which the owner could configure together depending on his/her needs.

[JBW1]

A whistle
Maybe it can be called a DWARF, cuz you can whistle while you work 

[kmanct3]

I NEED PICS !!!!!!!

[sawman]

I NEED PICS !!!!!!!

+1 I'm beginning to think LM just likes to torture us.