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God damn it!!

tosh · 95 · 6624

gb Offline tosh

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God damn it!!
on: October 15, 2014, 06:30:07 PM
As some may know from reading my past threads, I've started commuting to work on my  bike, really enjoy it!!

Tonight however wasn't much fun. I cycle along path that runs behind a housing estate as the road is pretty notorious for accidents due to speeding motorists. Every night on my way home I see familiar faces all out walking their dogs. I always but always slow right down the owners always acknowledge me, say hello or give a wave and rein the dog/s in. No problem. Except for tonight I met a young girl (18-20yr) with a rottweiler.  The dog became protective immediately, I had already slowed right down and asked the girl if the dog was okay...."yeah" she answered. Next thing it lunged at me, she tried to pull it back and I in turn tried to get out of its way, but it went again but I quickly cycled off.

Okay no one was bit, but that's not the point - I am bedside myself with anger, so much so that in future I will be carrying my OHO box cutter in my pocket. There is no way that I am going to allow myself to be bitten twice.

My brother was bitten on Sunday by his neighbours dog after the dozy neighbour left his gate open, a fair sized dog I'm told bigger than a GSD. It leapt up and bit him on the tricep, deep punture wound, blood was running down his arm -  still he gave the dog a serious kicking and then threatend to give the owner some too!!

He was more angry that it could have been any of his kids 3/7/10yr olds.

What with that and tonights near miss for me, I ain't taking no chances. I'll do nothing until I'm actually bitten, but then that's it, I will defend myself.  Unless anyone can recommend a very effective deterrent.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 07:49:44 PM by tosh »
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england Offline Taxi Dad

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #1 on: October 15, 2014, 06:42:54 PM
I for one am part of the 'pro dog' group, but you have my full sympathy Tosh. you have every right to feel violated ! you should be safe from dog bites unless you're on private property (uninvited) IMHO.
I'm sure this thread will plummet to a slanging match between the 'dog types' and 'Antis', and i'll join in later  :whistle:
the law is quite stacked in your favour on this one (if you can find the owner)
most of all I hope you are ok?
I love dogs, especially large dogs, but the odd bad practicing owner WILL make the lawmakers in this country ruin it for the rest of us :(


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #2 on: October 15, 2014, 06:53:34 PM
That is bad. You have to do what you have to do, and even though I'm a dog lover I can't condemn you for defending yourself.  If it was me I'd probably beat the owner into a puddle for putting me in that situation afterwards.  But that's me and I don't endorse that kind of action.

People need to realize that large dogs, firearms, knives, vehicles and similar items need to be handled responsibly.

I'm sorry this happened, and I hope it never happens again.

Def

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ca Offline Megan

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #3 on: October 15, 2014, 06:58:45 PM
An awful situation.

As a dog owner I am 100% responsible for the actions of my dog.
Having a larger dog is an even greater responsibility. In the end, she probably won't have physical control over that dog. So training is paramount. Bad situation all around.

Maybe you could carry pepper spray/bear spray? I really don't know.

I do know that if a dog happened to be attacking me I'd use whatever I had to stop it. Dog lover or not.
But god help the owners after I found them.
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gb Offline tosh

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #4 on: October 15, 2014, 07:24:44 PM
Like I previously mentioned before I grew up with dogs. My parents own a boarding kennels, but they also used to have the contract for lost and abandoned animals (dogs) in two cities (Sheffield & Rotherham). We had that contract for over 20yrs and I used to have to collect animals (dogs) that were either abandoned, or taken to the local police station or in very rare occurrences were in people's homes after the owner had passed away and police couldn't get in - yep, that's one angry dog there in its own home with its dead owner and a stranger is trying to get in!! Needless to say I became quite accustomed to reading their behaviour and knowing what was likely to come.

Tonight, I knew the dog would go for me, but I couldn't get out of the way. I've swapped tyres on the MTB for road tyres, plus I had toe clips on so I couldn't even get off the path and cycle on the grass as the bike just slides all over. That's why I asked the girl if the dog was alright as I knew it would lunge, as I actually rode past I said "hold the lead tight" that's when it went for me. To be fair to the dog it was dusk, I was dressed in dark clothes and haven't shaved for several days, so I guess I don't cut the figure of Angel Gabriel!!

But then again, she really shouldn't be out walking a dog as powerful as that if she isn't in total control, I don't mean strength, I mean the dog obeys her.

It would hurt me if I injured a dog through self defence as the dog wouldn't realise it had done anything wrong, and the long term effects would be clearly visible. But, on the other hand I don't relish the thought of being bitten....it really does hurt!! Believe me I know that much!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 07:42:45 PM by tosh »
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us Offline Higgins617

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #5 on: October 15, 2014, 08:20:06 PM
This is something that is always on my mind, time and time again you see people in "control" of dogs that could literally just drag them down the road if they so pleased.Megan is right, it's all about training in situations like that. People forget how strong dogs really can be. And I'm not against dogs by any means, I am against negligent and irresponsible people though, especially when their actions or lack thereof can threaten others.
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us Offline captain spaulding

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #6 on: October 15, 2014, 09:30:53 PM
I think a box cutter would be a terrible weapon against a dog. You would want something with penetration if you wanted to go the blade route. I would suggest a large folder as a secondary option and pepper spray as a primary option.

I am a dog lover like many others, but if attacked by a dog I really felt threatened by then its you or the dog and it sure as heck won't be me.

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gb Offline tosh

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #7 on: October 15, 2014, 10:41:07 PM
It makes me shudder to even contemplate the situation of using a box cutter on an animal.
However, if this dreadful scenario ever came about I think a box cutter would be truly effective. A dog lunges up usually, thus exposing it's belly....need I really go on??

......the box cutter is fitted with a new razor blade, can you imagine the devastation that would cause if used in an upward slicing motion across the full length of a dogs stomach!! :facepalm: also box cutters, especially the dicast versions with the retractable blade would cause horrific injuries if used as a kabuton on the top of a dogs skull.

Honestly, I think it would be nothing short of a bloodbath, horrendous !
It's a pity that the UK bans tazers, I'm guessing they would be very effective, plus no lasting effects.
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us Offline captain spaulding

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #8 on: October 15, 2014, 10:47:55 PM
I do not really want to argue as it seems you already made your mind up but I will put in my last thought.

You are assuming a lot here in how the dog would attack and you being able to be in the right mind to mount a counter attack precisely to the dogs stomach in a precise motion is ridiculous. I would not count on beating the dogs head with it as a kabuton either. If you tried that on my dog she would look up at you and laugh. Just my opinion though.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 10:50:17 PM by captain spaulding »
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gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #9 on: October 15, 2014, 10:49:06 PM
You can get humane anti dog bells specifically for bicycles as dogs generally hate bicycles. I'd be more inclined to go down that route first :)

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00 Offline kirk13

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #10 on: October 15, 2014, 11:04:26 PM
Tosh,I'm sorry to hear about this! Back in SA ,I cycled a lot,and dog issues there are a big deal. I've had Rotties go for me before,as well as Dobermans ans Alsatians( plus Hods know how many Maltese Poodles :facepalm:)

I ended up getting a can of uber strong mace,which I had strapped to the stem. This stuff is illegal in the UK,and a big bunch of States in the US,and an awful lot of SAPS cops I knew used it as a man stopper. Doesn't help here I know,but mate,I feel for you
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us Offline Aloha

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #11 on: October 15, 2014, 11:07:22 PM
I'm in and out of peoples homes ( invited ) and they always say their dog is great.  I've had one to many situations where the dog is not great. 

Tosh I'm sorry you have to even contemplate injuring a dog BUT you must protect yourself.  I have used a variety of methods all with vastly different outcomes.

Pepper spray, is temporary on motivated dogs and great on most others.

Air horn ( canned variety ), is effective on less than confident or motivated dogs.

Taser ( hand held ), is temporary on motivated dog but works on less than confident dogs.  Even the zap of it in hand will scare some dogs.

Large blunt object ( bat, pool cue, etc ), good on most dogs to keep them back but on motivated dog this may not work.
 
Knife, I have never used this and would only use it as last ditch effort.   
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gb Offline tosh

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #12 on: October 15, 2014, 11:24:03 PM
I do not really want to argue as it seems you already made your mind up but I will put in my last thought.

You are assuming a lot here in how the dog would attack and you being able to be in the right mind to mount a counter attack precisely to the dogs stomach in a precise motion is ridiculous. I would not count on beating the dogs head with it as a kabuton. If you tried that on my dog she would look up at you and laugh. Just my opinion though.

Well, it's more based on experience than anything else really. I've had numerous dogs lunge for me, but this all 15yrs ago. Normally dogs unless trained otherwise will simply warn you with a bite (obviously if they're in a pack it's different) and normally they won't want to bite, so they growl as a warning.
The girls dog lunged for me because I invaded his territory by cycling too close to the girl (had no option) like I previously said the dog's whole body language was a warning for me to stay away - I came too close so it lunged. I'm guessing that dog weighed more than her, and basically all of it muscle!! If it had wanted to bite me it would have - she couldn't have stopped it.

After more than 10years of collecting dogs many abused, frightened hungry, some were Rottweilers, some GSD, some dobermans, some pit bulls (drug dealers dogs) but many were simply mongrels abandoned and scared and didn't trust anyone hence they wanted to bite me!! Out of fear more than anything. Big dogs like Rottweilers are very difficult simply because of the sheer moving mass, add to that their strength and not forgetting their hugely powerful jaws - it would be a nightmare, make no mistake. I really wouldn't want to ever have to fight off one of those breeds. I can't carry a large knife  here in the UK, nor can I carry a locking blade. A box cutter is not illegal to carry - especially in my work clothes.

But I'm hoping this is all idle talk, I really wouldn't want to have to fight off a dog - nobody wins, if I were savaged the dog would be destroyed, if the dog lost the owner would be heart broken. But after my close shave tonight I really need to be a little more prepared, that dog will hate me now, if it sees me again it will quite possibly have another go - yet I need to go that way to work as it's safer than on the roads.

So capt' - you tell me... What would you do??

@Aloha007 - when it was my job I used a dog pole along with kind soft words - most of the time it worked. If it didn't then I would resort to the clear shield along with the dog pole and dog handling gloves- basically gauntlets with reinforced plates top and bottom - yeah, your fingers get crushed but no puncture wounds!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 11:47:17 PM by tosh »
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gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #13 on: October 16, 2014, 12:06:30 AM
http://www.personalalarms.com.au/dogrepel.htm

I have seen this mounted to handlebars :)

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us Offline jerseydevil

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #14 on: October 16, 2014, 12:09:11 AM
Back in the day this was all you needed.......
There's no such thing as "Too pretty to carry".  There's only "Too pretty NOT to carry"...... >:D


de Offline Lichtbote

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #15 on: October 16, 2014, 12:19:42 AM
You are assuming a lot here in how the dog would attack and you being able to be in the right mind to mount a counter attack precisely to the dogs stomach in a precise motion is ridiculous. I would not count on beating the dogs head with it as a kabuton either. If you tried that on my dog she would look up at you and laugh. Just my opinion though.

It works way better than stabbing the dog, esspecially if he is out of control - but it´s a hell of a mess.

Unless the dog is trained to go for certain parts of the body, you can "invite" most to go for the part you offer him. To offer him your arm, knowing it will hurt, is not easy - but as soon as you have him there his belly is the best place for a counter attack.

At least if you are prepared, having the blade ready for action at the moment the (big) dog has your arm, with a good stand on the ground - not sure how that should work on a bike.


I don´t think the kabuton action would work really good.
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gb Offline tosh

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #16 on: October 16, 2014, 12:27:33 AM
http://www.personalalarms.com.au/dogrepel.htm

I have seen this mounted to handlebars :)

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lol, we actually had one of those or something similar years ago - absolute waste of time. Didn't do diddly squat. If dogs were actually in the kennels and were uncontrollable then your best weapon is water! (Hosepipe) I've seen dogs begin to pull steel welded mesh off steel panels as they try to get to me, molars cracked, gums bleeding pure hatred in their eyes - turn the hosepipe on and that's it - they clear off. Result....one damp doggy.

I know my dad once got bit really bad and the dog came back for a second go and grabbed his hand, my dad actually found the strength to clench the bottom jaw of the dogs mouth, thus trapping its tongue under his palm, the dog couldn't breathe and eventually almost lost consciousness. He needed a lot of stitches but says he would've needed many many more if he hadn't done what he did.
My mom was savaged by a dog when I was in primary school, her scars are more like burn scars, grotesque thick pink ragged lines of flesh that run down both her forearms. She was in hospital for nearly 2 months as doctors battled to save both her arms.


It works way better than stabbing the dog, esspecially if he is out of control - but it´s a hell of a mess.

Unless the dog is trained to go for certain parts of the body, you can "invite" most to go for the part you offer him. To offer him your arm, knowing it will hurt, is not easy - but as soon as you have him there his belly is the best place for a counter attack.


I once had a conversation with a police dog handler who'd been bitten on the forearm as a criminals dog lunged up to get his face/neck whatever. He said he actually totally disabled the dog with a knee strike full bore into the chest cavity as the dog was up on its back legs.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 12:54:59 AM by tosh »
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gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #17 on: October 16, 2014, 12:47:13 AM
Back in the day this was all you needed.......
I've seen some lovely carbine version of those :)

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gb Offline Mike, Lord of the Spammers!

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #18 on: October 16, 2014, 12:53:58 AM
http://www.personalalarms.com.au/dogrepel.htm

I have seen this mounted to handlebars :)

Sent from the astropathic choir.

lol, we actually had one of those or something similar years ago - absolute waste of time. Didn't do diddly squat. If dogs were actually in the kennels and were uncontrollable then your best weapon is water! (Hosepipe) I've seen dogs begin to pull steel welded mesh off steel panels as they try to get to me, molars cracked, gums bleeding pure hatred in their eyes - turn the hosepipe on and that's it - they clear off. Result....one damp doggy.

I know my dad once got bit really bad and the dog came back for a second go and grabbed his hand, my dad actually found the strength to clench the bottom jaw of the dogs mouth, thus trapping its tongue under his palm, the dog couldn't breathe and eventually almost lost consciousness. He needed a lot of stitches but says he would've needed many many more if he hadn't done what he did.
My mom was savaged by a dog when I was in primary school, her scars are more like burn scars, thick pink lines of flesh that run down both her forearms. She was in hospital for nearly 2 months as doctors battled to save both her arms.
Maybe your right, I've had dogs go for me, but I've just gone into sprint mode, as I know I'd have a harder time hurting a dog than I would a bloke :/

Maybe someone with better google fun can fine a humane solution as I know that a dog will continue to fight even after major blood loss so I don't think that a knife attack really is a practical proposition anyway.

Even jumping of and keeping the bicycle between you and the dog could be an option in extremis and maybe even pining the dog till help arrives as the frame would give you a lot of leverage over the animal.

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ca Offline derekmac

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #19 on: October 16, 2014, 12:55:22 AM
Stew might be a good one to ask in regards to this.  I imagine working in the K-9 division, he would need to know counter measures against dogs.  I could be wrong though.


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gb Offline tosh

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #20 on: October 16, 2014, 01:04:09 AM
http://www.personalalarms.com.au/dogrepel.htm

I have seen this mounted to handlebars :)

Sent from the astropathic choir.

lol, we actually had one of those or something similar years ago - absolute waste of time. Didn't do diddly squat. If dogs were actually in the kennels and were uncontrollable then your best weapon is water! (Hosepipe) I've seen dogs begin to pull steel welded mesh off steel panels as they try to get to me, molars cracked, gums bleeding pure hatred in their eyes - turn the hosepipe on and that's it - they clear off. Result....one damp doggy.

I know my dad once got bit really bad and the dog came back for a second go and grabbed his hand, my dad actually found the strength to clench the bottom jaw of the dogs mouth, thus trapping its tongue under his palm, the dog couldn't breathe and eventually almost lost consciousness. He needed a lot of stitches but says he would've needed many many more if he hadn't done what he did.
My mom was savaged by a dog when I was in primary school, her scars are more like burn scars, thick pink lines of flesh that run down both her forearms. She was in hospital for nearly 2 months as doctors battled to save both her arms.
Maybe your right, I've had dogs go for me, but I've just gone into sprint mode, as I know I'd have a harder time hurting a dog than I would a bloke :/

Maybe someone with better google fun can fine a humane solution as I know that a dog will continue to fight even after major blood loss so I don't think that a knife attack really is a practical proposition anyway.

Even jumping of and keeping the bicycle between you and the dog could be an option in extremis and maybe even pining the dog till help arrives as the frame would give you a lot of leverage over the animal.

Sent from the astropathic choir.

Yeah, I agree with you. I've calmed down now and realise the dog was just protecting her. And seriously hand on heart I think it would be nigh on impossible to win if that dog was protecting her.....it would just never ever stop!!! That's scary  :ahhh
I've never seen her before, hopefully it's shook her up too and she'll be more alert in future.
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ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #21 on: October 16, 2014, 01:08:58 AM
Dogs are very effective predators.  I think the best way to deal with them is a good offense if the situation can't be avoided.  Of course, avoidance is the best option, but it isn't always available.

In order to fight a dog you really need to train at it and accept that you are going to get bit.  Your best bet is to arm yourself with pepper spray or something similar if you can.  Keep it handy and practice drawing it so you can do it instinctively when you need to.

Failing that if try to dismount and walk past with the bike between you and the dog.

Def

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gb Offline tosh

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #22 on: October 16, 2014, 01:20:27 AM
Dogs are very effective predators.  I think the best way to deal with them is a good offense if the situation can't be avoided.  Of course, avoidance is the best option, but it isn't always available.

In order to fight a dog you really need to train at it and accept that you are going to get bit.  Your best bet is to arm yourself with pepper spray or something similar if you can.  Keep it handy and practice drawing it so you can do it instinctively when you need to.

Failing that if try to dismount and walk past with the bike between you and the dog.

Def

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Lol -I did actually want to get off, but couldn't - it's rained heavy here all week the grass is just like a quad mire so I would've had to dismount on the right side....straight towards her  :ahhh
But this was all within 5 -7 seconds.. I came to a bend same time as her 20ft apart, then cycled pass very slowly when the dog just lunged. As I say, if I'd had knobbly's on I'd have just gone straight over the grass!
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ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #23 on: October 16, 2014, 01:28:43 AM
Yeah its easy to discuss options on the Internet when it isn't actually happening.

I really feel your pain on this though.  Daisy grew fast and she had a real dominance problems which resulted in quite a few fights.  I "won" but often ended up with bloody fingers and hands before I could get her to the ground.  And this was my dog, not a strange animal.

Dogs are a serious concern and very good at what they do.  Being on the wrong side of an encounter is never a good thing.

Def

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us Offline ironraven

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #24 on: October 16, 2014, 01:33:31 AM
I'm going to say something that will probably make me unpopular, but I think I see part of the problem:

a young girl (18-20yr) with a rottweiler. 

I am not anti-rottie or any breed. Most of the rottweilers I've meet were 80 plus pound of "hi, how you doin' wanna play I wanna sniff you becuase you smell good lets play" or were rescues that were scared of everything, and don't deserve the rep get. But becuase of their size, if I'm not ready for it, they can knock me over and no one has called me tiny.

And I like young women, I am very much for their existence

But I think that part of responsible dog ownership is being able to control the dog, and many young women (and men!) just aren't big enough to control a large breed. They aren't heavy enough to if need be grab the collar or the leash, and sit down to keep the dog from going where it wants. That is probably the third dumbest way I can think of doing it, but if your dog can drag you like you're a little red wagon...

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ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #25 on: October 16, 2014, 01:40:22 AM
Absolutely.

Def

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us Offline Aloha

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #26 on: October 16, 2014, 01:41:25 AM
Great point
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us Offline captain spaulding

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #27 on: October 16, 2014, 01:45:12 AM

So capt' - you tell me... What would you do??





Since a locking blade is not a option in your country I would say pepper spray backed up with the box cutter. If pepper spray is not a option then I would look into wasp sray. I have heard it has a similar effect as pepper spray, but actually shoots much farther and with more volume. If that is not a option either then I guess you are back to just carrying the box cutter.

I was in no way trying to be confrontational I just would have wanted to go about it in a different manner, but if your laws keep you from doing so then do whatever you feel would be effective. 
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00 Offline kirk13

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #28 on: October 16, 2014, 09:48:07 AM

So capt' - you tell me... What would you do??





Since a locking blade is not a option in your country I wpould say pepper spray backed up with the box cutter. If pepper spray is not a option then I would look into wasp sray. I have heard it has a similar effect as pepper spray, but actually shoots much farther and with more volume. If that is not a option either then I guess you are back to just carrying the box cutter.

I was in no way trying to be confrontational I just would have wanted to go about it in a different manner, but if your laws keep you from doing so then do whatever you feel would be effective.

One of the problems is any pepper spray you can get legally here in the UK is pretty useless :poh:
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ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: God damn it!!
Reply #29 on: October 16, 2014, 10:20:18 AM
First off, I have no clue about UK law but if its anything like German law, bringing a box cutter might be in the Grey area and could get you into lots of trouble.
If you feel the need to protect yourself on a bike ride, best weapon you can bring is a heavy bike chain lock, but I have no clue as to how effective it is against dogs. It is my understanding that pepper-sprays are not that effective against dogs, so relying on a pepper spray might be a mistake.

Whatever measurement you choose, it has to be very quickly available, as you rarely will time to pull something from your pocket. That is why I suggest a very bright bike light. Many of those are only attached with a thick rubber band and therefore can be moved around. While blinding a dog does not guarantee any success it most likely will daze the dog for a moment. As you are on a bike, that's all you need.
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