Power tools getting crappier or am I expecting too much?

[Mr. Whippy]

We used to have to run off comp shoppers at the shop all the time, asking about makes and models of Paintball, skateboard, and Cycling gear that they could get out of Wally's distribution center. Evrey time we would change what we offered they would come in and a few weeks late they would have something the similar, cheaper. Ultimately Scot was down to just selling airfills and out of business..

Big box stores don't worry about selling some things at a loss if it gets people through the doors. Just look at the Meat Dept. I ran one for 3 years after being laid off at the factory. We would sell most of the steaks and all "premium" meats at a loss just to get people through the doors to buy other stuff.

This is a horribly sad, common story.   For me, I walk into the local store and say, "This is the price I see online.  I don't expect you to match it, but how close can you get and is this the same product you sell?"  Usually, I end up buying from my local guys.

Case in point, I need a bigger chainsaw to process logs for rough lumber.  Online, I found the Echo I wanted for a pretty good price.  I called my local guy and said that exact thing.  He said, "I can actually beat that price but it'll take a week for it to come in"

I'll go pick it up this weekend and buy some files, 2 stroke oil and trimmer string at the same time.  A complete win for the local guy. 

As for reference, I was willing to go $25 higher than online for the local guy. ($850 chainsaw)

[Higgins617]

I dunno, I still find it hard to believe that the same model number would come in different quality simultaneously.

I think what they do is add a letter to the model #, and put cheaper internals in them.

exactly that. When Walmart started selling Tippman Paintball guns they demanded a specific price point from Tippman. The problem was there was no way Tippman could meet this point with the '98 so they left out the milling that allows you to upgrade your gun with aftermarket parts. So kids/parents would come to my buddy's shop asking for upgrade parts and get mad at him because he'd say he couldn't install them.   

The same happens with all brands/products. Catapiller boot used to be made by Wolverine, Wolverine used to all be made in US; Craftsmen welders used to be Lincoln, then Campbell Hausfeld now who knows. 

Sub contractors of subcontractors all to increase profitability of products the been counters see as disposable, while everyone else sees their tools as their life blood.

It's sad , If I were to make something I would do so with utmost pride in what I make, not just trying to make the biggest profit.

Ok, so here's the critical thing:

If you were making it with a company YOU owned, you can do that because you take pride in the product and are willing to take less profit to maintain a quality you're proud of (and can offer your skilled workers salary and benefits to keep your skilled workforce).

If you decide to go global, though you would need to raise a bunch of capital to expand and so...

You would talk to a bunch of venture capitalists etc who would tell you, you can get the money but you need to take your company public and sell stock (or sell controlling interest to the venture capitalists).  They promise they share your values, and everyone can make money this way, blah, blah, blah...

Then, the day comes when they decide they want bigger profits.  Yes you make a great product, but couldn't you make essentially the same thing for 15% less?  Do you have to use the top grade steel? Do you HAVE to do 8 finishing steps? Couldn't you do it a little simpler?  It's the finish afterall, not the function of the product...

Before long, you're making short cuts to satisfy investors who what greater profits and want to boost stock prices.

It's a slippery slope.

It's why some businesses eventually try to take their publicly traded corps private again. 

It's a difficult dance in the business world. 

Very well said and also exactly why I couldn't cut it in that world. I have too much pride, I'd go broke before letting myself be associated with junk.

[tosh]

I've often pondered on this.

Eventually I came to my own assumption..

Manufacturers come up with a new tool design. They pull out all the stops to ensure its well received by customers, once the brand name has loyalty they then begin the cost cutting programme.

I guess first generation may not have the finesse of their latest versions - but I'd also argue they'll get the job done.

[Noa Isumi]

I think the point of all this is not in the quest for sales/profit, but the point at which that degrades your product/service quality to the point that you alienate your customer base.

[jzmtl]

  For me, I walk into the local store and say, "This is the price I see online.  I don't expect you to match it, but how close can you get and is this the same product you sell?"  Usually, I end up buying from my local guys.

I can only imagine if I tried that at the local shops here.

"Mwahahahaha....

piss off".

[Blitzwing]

It's not just the tools..  My ex-father in law bought a Vermont castings grill from the Depot and compared it to my real Vermont castings grill...  That thing was a smurf box.. I only buy tools from big box stores when I don't give a rats ass about them.

[Mr. Whippy]

  For me, I walk into the local store and say, "This is the price I see online.  I don't expect you to match it, but how close can you get and is this the same product you sell?"  Usually, I end up buying from my local guys.

I can only imagine if I tried that at the local shops here.

"Mwahahahaha....

piss off".

If I got that response, I would order online right in front of them, and smugly smile and look them in the eye, while I did it.

[Higgins617]

  For me, I walk into the local store and say, "This is the price I see online.  I don't expect you to match it, but how close can you get and is this the same product you sell?"  Usually, I end up buying from my local guys.

I can only imagine if I tried that at the local shops here.

"Mwahahahaha....

piss off".

If I got that response, I would order online right in front of them, and smugly smile and look them in the eye, while I did it.

I like you

[Syph007]

I dunno, I still find it hard to believe that the same model number would come in different quality simultaneously.

I think what they do is add a letter to the model #, and put cheaper internals in them.

exactly that. When Walmart started selling Tippman Paintball guns they demanded a specific price point from Tippman. The problem was there was no way Tippman could meet this point with the '98 so they left out the milling that allows you to upgrade your gun with aftermarket parts. So kids/parents would come to my buddy's shop asking for upgrade parts and get mad at him because he'd say he couldn't install them.   

The same happens with all brands/products. Catapiller boot used to be made by Wolverine, Wolverine used to all be made in US; Craftsmen welders used to be Lincoln, then Campbell Hausfeld now who knows. 

Sub contractors of subcontractors all to increase profitability of products the been counters see as disposable, while everyone else sees their tools as their life blood.

It's sad , If I were to make something I would do so with utmost pride in what I make, not just trying to make the biggest profit.

Ok, so here's the critical thing:

If you were making it with a company YOU owned, you can do that because you take pride in the product and are willing to take less profit to maintain a quality you're proud of (and can offer your skilled workers salary and benefits to keep your skilled workforce).

If you decide to go global, though you would need to raise a bunch of capital to expand and so...

You would talk to a bunch of venture capitalists etc who would tell you, you can get the money but you need to take your company public and sell stock (or sell controlling interest to the venture capitalists).  They promise they share your values, and everyone can make money this way, blah, blah, blah...

Then, the day comes when they decide they want bigger profits.  Yes you make a great product, but couldn't you make essentially the same thing for 15% less?  Do you have to use the top grade steel? Do you HAVE to do 8 finishing steps? Couldn't you do it a little simpler?  It's the finish afterall, not the function of the product...

Before long, you're making short cuts to satisfy investors who what greater profits and want to boost stock prices.

It's a slippery slope.

It's why some businesses eventually try to take their publicly traded corps private again. 

It's a difficult dance in the business world. 

Yes taking a company public and letting shareholders and investors then have a 'say' in how things are done, are never going to be good for quality.  They will only care about profit.  I saw this from the inside when working at a private company that then went public.

[HarleyXJGuy]

I had an old circular saw that my Dad gave me. Used it for many years around the house and when I was a professional carpenter. Thing was bullet proof but finally died a few years back..

Went to Home Depot excited to buy the same model and brand but have a brand new saw.

I am sure you all know how that ended up. Sigh.

[dks]

I think there is a similar thread somewhere on what powertools you use or something, that could be useful to read.

Many professionals I see, use Hilti or Makita or B&D.... However, the ones that use their tools quite hard, just use cheaper, sometimes no-name brands, as the cost of replacing them is lower than the cost of buying an expensive tool, that will last a bit longer, in the long run. DeWalt is seen as a butique brand of B&D and I have not seen anybody use them hard

What many, so called professional tools, have is a better inbuilt capacity for repairing them. However, sometimes the cost of repair is more than the cost of buying a new, good but not pro grade, tool.

In a dusty environment, like cutting into brick and concrete walls and floors to install pipes the dust hills angle grinders very quickly, irrespective of who made them.
Once the dust goes in you have parts sticking and short circuits so the tool can either be repaired, for a large sum, or you can get a new one. Cheap and expensive tools will suffer the same as they are not immune to dust. When i was doing it a few years ago we used to go through a few angle grinders every week, some were Makita, some were B&D and some were cheap no name brands. In the end it was better to just get a cheap one and throw it away.

Also a lot of people assume that professionals are this magic people that really understand and love their tools, with a superior knowledge than ours. However, most times, time is more important than the well being of the tool.

I was working with a builder a few years ago who was using a nice "Pro-Grade" large angle grinder that had a soft start system, to protect the motor..... but, when he wanted something cut he wanted it cut now, so by the time the tool has reached its working RPM he had already finished cutting what he wanted to cut. He was thus using the angle grinder in less than optimum RPM, damaging it, but getting the job done faster, as he was paid by how much work he was doing per day.

LIDL power tools, a lot of them German made, have gained a good reputation for value and good quality, so I see more pro and semi pro people using them too. (their non power tools are not that great)

So a pro, needs the tool that will give the most profit in the long run. So if buying two cheap tools (backup) will be more profitable than buying a slightly better made expensive one he will go for the cheap ones.

This discussion reminds me a bit of the discussions on what Lights or Multitools or Knives the Army uses, or the special forces use or the police use etc, where the assumptions is that just because they use X-brand that brand is automatically the best. In real life they will use what they were issued (a Bayonet, a cheap 2C battery light etc..) or they will just buy what is available, what they like, what their friend suggests, sometimes without any real comparison between brands.

For example I see a lot of firemen and the only one that carries a Victorinox Rescue tool (which most will assume its the best and all firemen carry... they have to it is the best..). He bought it himself and it looks unused..

[Lichtbote]

It depends on tool to tool, from job to job, from professional to professional ......

but in general i agree with you, DKS.

[jzmtl]

I think there is a similar thread somewhere on what powertools you use or something, that could be useful to read.

Many professionals I see, use Hilti or Makita or B&D.... However, the ones that use their tools quite hard, just use cheaper, sometimes no-name brands, as the cost of replacing them is lower than the cost of buying an expensive tool, that will last a bit longer, in the long run. DeWalt is seen as a butique brand of B&D and I have not seen anybody use them hard

Yes the price structure of the tools and parts make repair often not worth it, so are the price of batteries and new kits.

Interesting about the difference between EU and NA on tools, Dewalt is one of the big names here among Bosch, Makita and Milwaukee. I think the same goes for Jeeps which you see often in NA but not in rest of the world for offroad, because they are easily available here.

One interesting thing regard Dewalt is, you keep hearing people say how B&D bought it and ruined it etc. But in reality the original Dewalt went kaput before B&D bought it, and B&D bought it for its name association for their own higher end tools. So Dewalt is really B&D from the start.

[tosh]

Interesting

But I don't like the idea of cheap angle grinders - tried cheap once, it spun until the disc touched the steel and stopped the motor 

Cheap mains voltage drills no problem -  cheap cordless = crap batteries

Personally I think makita, Dewalt, Bosch are all good.

For extreme precision or heavy work days HILTI & Festool should keep up!

[HarleyXJGuy]

When I was a carpenter in Michigan everyone use Makita stuff.

Not sure what that means but there you go.

[jzmtl]

Only thing I know about Makita is for some reason they are super slow on releasing new batteries. Bosch is about to release a 6 AH fat pack in Europe while Makita still stuck on 3 AH with plans for 4.

[HarleyXJGuy]

Only thing I know about Makita is for some reason they are super slow on releasing new batteries. Bosch is about to release a 6 AH fat pack in Europe while Makita still stuck on 3 AH with plans for 4.

None of our tools were battery operated so have no experience there.

[skygear]

Anyone try a Dremel scroll?

[lowtech]

DKS is right in perspective of cost effectiveness.
If you are looking for tools you will use yourself and want good, reliable stuff, it may make sense to buy good tools.
I have come to like METABO - A german based manufacturer and inventor of the electric (handheld) drill IIRC.
They offer a warranty on their batteries (3 years in commercial use), they will sell you spares for I think 6 years after the tool has been discontinued. They do repair their tools, they sell you spare parts and they make parts and tools in germany and Europe.
Batteries of the same voltage are guaranteed to fit on every tools made after a certain date and into the future.

And DKS is right with the LIDL Powertools - Most of those are made quite well.

It is nicer to work with those tools and as I use them for projects in my free time and on sidejobs, I rather buy a good tool I care for than a cheap one I just replace. I take my own tools to work sometimes, though. When the tools at work are not enough or we don´t have the specific tool needed.

[dks]

50? year old Black&Decker D520, Made in England, when that meant something... 2 mechanical speeds.
(I love mechanical speeds-my pro grade B&D, bought a few years ago has two speeds, mechanical but is about twice the size of the D520...)

Has been regularly used, heavily, since it was bought new.

We have gone through several drills, some branded, some not but this one keeps going.

[jzmtl]

Bought a Makita cordless screwdriver, LED is DOA out of box, will go to their service center tomorrow and see what they say.

Seems I just have smurfty luck with power tools.   

[Cupboard]

I have to say I've only had good experiences with Bosch Blue (the professional range) power tools.
OK so we're a farm and precision isn't usually the most important thing but to be robust and reliable is.

We currently have a cordless drill, corded drill, a big corded SDS drill and a couple of angle grinders.
Apart from one of the grinders which is a fortnight old they've all had a lot of use and some abuse (the new grinder has already had to have a new lead when a big thing got dropped on it) and they're all still working.

Looking at the cordless drills, we used to have a fleet of Ryobis, the drills were a bit naff, the batteries weren't good new and wouldn't survive more than a year. The Bosch is still going strong after 2 years (I personally have a 4 year old one, but that gets lighter use).

The grinders have been replacing Hitachis, which are supposed to be fairly good. We did buy one Hitachi after buying a Bosch (not sure why, I think someone was trying to prove a point) and that's the one that got replaced most recently. There's a little plastic stick in between the power switch (at the grindy end) and the actual electrical switch (at the power cable end) and that had so much slop in it that you couldn't reliably turn the grinder on, and if you did turn it on you couldn't reliably turn it off again. Ryobi grinders have suffered from melted electrics and other acts of randomly falling apart.

We did have a Ryobi corded mains drill that worked OK for a few years until we tried to drill lots of small holes in some metal. The Bosch survived (and went on to do about 2/3rds the job) but the Ryobi let out its magic blue smoke. And we all know electrics don't work without the all important magic smoke.

I'm not saying Bosch tools are perfect, and I'm not saying they'll never break. However in my experience they're a lot better than some, and I do have some faith that they'll stand by their warranty.

[ToolJoe]

FWIW, i've had a cordless drill from Harbor Freight for the last year or so and haven't had any trouble with it.

[jzmtl]

The makita screwdriver is fixed under warranty, picked it up today, even though I had to drive 100 km to get it fixed, at least I didn't pay full price for it.

The auto stop clutch is pretty sweet, once you reach the torque setting it click once and stops instead of clank clank clank like what you have on cordless drills, but it was also heck a lot more expensive than the black&decker I was using before.

[jzmtl]

Nevermind about the complaint about circular saw, I was being a smurfing idiot. Somehow it never occurred to me that if I lower the baseplate to reduce the depth of cut by a tiny bit, then the motor would not hit it and I can adjust the blade to be square with baseplate.  Used it quite a bit the past few days, cuts well and last long enough with the fatpack battery.

New complaint about the 18v impact driver, sort of, too freakin powerful  , it'll sink the head of #8 woodscrew as deep as your driver bit is long if you so wish, gotta be careful with the trigger.

[enki_ck]

[Mr. Whippy]

Nevermind about the complaint about circular saw, I was being a smurfing idiot. Somehow it never occurred to me that if I lower the baseplate to reduce the depth of cut by a tiny bit, then the motor would not hit it and I can adjust the blade to be square with baseplate.  Used it quite a bit the past few days, cuts well and last long enough with the fatpack battery.

New complaint about the 18v impact driver, sort of, too freakin powerful  , it'll sink the head of #8 woodscrew as deep as your driver bit is long if you so wish, gotta be careful with the trigger.

If I'm using an impact driver on wood, I switch to a battery that has been half discharged so that it doesn't do that. 

[tosh]

Nevermind about the complaint about circular saw, I was being a smurfing idiot. Somehow it never occurred to me that if I lower the baseplate to reduce the depth of cut by a tiny bit, then the motor would not hit it and I can adjust the blade to be square with baseplate.  Used it quite a bit the past few days, cuts well and last long enough with the fatpack battery.

New complaint about the 18v impact driver, sort of, too freakin powerful  , it'll sink the head of #8 woodscrew as deep as your driver bit is long if you so wish, gotta be careful with the trigger.

If I'm using an impact driver on wood, I switch to a battery that has been half discharged so that it doesn't do that.

I used to use dewalt 18v impacts on a daily basis - awesome power. Easily shear M8 bolts when used as a nut runner. As for use on wood.... I know what you mean. A good tip is to take it down to the surface then reverse it back and go down again. Reason for this is that impacts are so damn fast they sometimes have a tendency to jack the piece up that you're screwing into.
However away from site work, I worked in a joinery shop for a couple of years, they hated them!! In the end I switched back to a normal cordless drill. Much better control when the finish is all important.

Still got my impacts tho' 

[jzmtl]

If I'm using an impact driver on wood, I switch to a battery that has been half discharged so that it doesn't do that.

if i recall you are on dewalt 18v xrp? that wont work with lithium battery anymore, there is much less fade. i didnt notice any power difference on my saw between a fresh battery and only one led (3 total) left.

the new brushless impact has three speed setting and power, plus a 1/2" anvil and 1/4" hex, think i'll get one to play with, can use for car mechanical stuff as well.

[derekmac]

Yeah, with lithium batteries, it's all or nothing.  You also shouldn't run them low, as you can damage the batteries.  Most drills/tools should have an auto shut off to prevent damage.