Man tries to rob a person with a pellet gun - gets shot by real gun.

[dks]

With the renewed interest in guns here, this may be of interest:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/teenage-robber-who-pulled-toy-5132580

It is a shame as the dead  robber was a young man, but he did point a gun and tried to rob the other person, who acted in self defence.

A teenage robber who stuck up a 67-year-old man with a 'toy gun' was killed moments later when the OAP pulled out a genuine pistol and shot him in the head.

Police said Tyler Williams, who was wearing a mask to conceal his face, attempted to rob the man who was taking a stroll on a park trail in Philadelphia, US.

Sticking a metal pistol in the man's face, he demanded money.

According to police, the older man, who has a concealed weapons permit, then pulled out a .38 caliber handgun and shot the assailant in the head at close range.

[Mike, Lord of the Spammers!]

Brought it on himself if you ask me. Live by the sword, die by the sword...

[PTRSAK]

That will be one less repeat offender. 

[JAfromMn]

I think everyone should always be armed. I think people would be nicer to each other if they all thought everyone was packing.

[Lichtbote]

So he ended a life instead of loosing what? 50 bucks? 100 bucks? Or whatever he had in his wallet.

Well, I´m OK with that way of thinking - as long as it stays in the US.

Here in Europe i prefer it to stay the more civilized way as we have it now.

[ducttapetech]

I didn't know that is made a place more civilized. Man we must be barbarians here.

Nate

[lister]

Yeah no, political debate ahead... 

[ducttapetech]

Trying not too.

Nate

[SAK Guy]

So he ended a life instead of loosing what? 50 bucks? 100 bucks? Or whatever he had in his wallet.

Well, I´m OK with that way of thinking - as long as it stays in the US.

Here in Europe i prefer it to stay the more civilized way as we have it now.

Yep, the problem over here is that we have uncivilized criminals.

[Mr. Whippy]

So he ended a life instead of loosing what? 50 bucks? 100 bucks? Or whatever he had in his wallet.

Well, I´m OK with that way of thinking - as long as it stays in the US.

Here in Europe i prefer it to stay the more civilized way as we have it now.

Well, there are a few things to this.  In my mind, the "uncivilized" part is 2 assailants attacking an old man (a presumed weak victim).  That implies to me a failed social system that somehow encourages young males to behave in uncivilized fashion.  That the old man could defend himself in a legal way, is really just a positive outcome of an uncivilized attack.

It would really be no different than if the old man had swung a cane, hit the guy, he fell backward and was run over by a passing truck.  The tragedy, again, would be that an old man has to defend himself against young attackers.

The tragedy would have been compounded if the old man had just cashed his pension check, and had been robbed of it in the coldest part of the winter. 

[dks]

As far as he knew the robber was threatening to kill him, which may have happened even if he paid,  so he was probably fighting for his life. I assume at the time he was not worried just for the money.

[Yadda]

Always bring the right tool for the job.  Never bring a knife or a pellet gun to a real gun fight.

Anyone that has seen "Raiders of the Lost Ark" knows that lesson.

[derekmac]

I look at it like this.  If I was that guy, and genuinely feared for my life, had a gun, I too would probably have shot him.  Maybe not in the head though, and a gun is something I would never consider carrying, even if it was legal. 

I completely disagree that everyone should be carrying a gun.  The only thing that would cause is more problems.

I don't think Europe is any more civilized than the US, but I think their gun mentality is closer to Canada's than the USA's.

These are only my opinions, and I greatly respect the opinions of everyone else here.

[Higgins617]

As far as he knew the robber was threatening to kill him, which may have happened even if he paid,  so he was probably fighting for his life. I assume at the time he was not worried just for the money.

I agree, times like that are when quick and extreme decisions are made. You never want to hear of anyone being killed, but nobody told the kid to go be a pretend thug and rob elderly men either.

[Lichtbote]

As far as he knew the robber was threatening to kill him, which may have happened even if he paid,  so he was probably fighting for his life. I assume at the time he was not worried just for the money.

And thats the part i don´t believe in.

There is no much reason not to run with the robbed money and to risk a much more hard punishment due to killing the victim - in a situation the victim gives up and hands over the money.
But even if he was afraid of beeing killed after giving up the money ... what sane mind would really draw a gun with another gun against his head.
Unless he recognized that it´s not a real run. But then he knew that there was no present danger for his life.

Defense it would be (for me) if he shots a fast drawn shot to the best/biggest target - the torso. A direct hit in the head is no defense, for me it´s murder.

[Mr. Whippy]

As far as he knew the robber was threatening to kill him, which may have happened even if he paid,  so he was probably fighting for his life. I assume at the time he was not worried just for the money.

And thats the part i don´t believe in.

There is no much reason not to run with the robbed money and to risk a much more hard punishment due to killing the victim - in a situation the victim gives up and hands over the money.
But even if he was afraid of beeing killed after giving up the money ... what sane mind would really draw a gun with another gun against his head.
Unless he recognized that it´s not a real run. But then he knew that there was no present danger for his life.

Defense it would be (for me) if he shots a fast drawn shot to the best/biggest target - the torso. A direct hit in the head is no defense, for me it´s murder.

Of course, this is all speculation.  My friend who worked for the Navy special operations and tactics (and now is in the private security sector) tells me that when confronted with potentially life threatening situations people act differently than they think they would. 

Some who think they'd comply and/or run away actually attack and can be extremely violent.  Others who think they'd fight, are completely passive.  It can't be predicted ahead of time.  Someone who's been in a previous threatening setting will tend to respond in the same way they did previously however (although it's not a certainty).

Judging someone's actions as murder from the armchair is rife with error.


Again:  I think it wrong to judge the victim.

[dks]

When he draw the gun I think the robbers gun was not at his head as they were fighting
 As to why he shot him in the head and not somewhere else it is not clear whether he aimed or just pulled the gun and fired in whatever direction he was aiming.
It is hard to conclude or decide what may have happened if he did not have a gun or if he gave the money (in general not here when the robber had a pellet gun so possibly nothing would have hapened )if you do not see the scene

[SAK Guy]

Another source....

"The man got into a struggle with the toy gunslinger, who was in his 20s. During the fight he took out a .38-caliber handgun, which he’s licensed to carry, and shot the suspect in the head. He died on the scene.

The shooter, who does not have a criminal record, was taken to a hospital with chest pains but is expected to recover, the Delaware County Daily Times reported.

Police said the shooter is unlikely to be charged for the killing because the toy gun looked real, and the man was acting in self-defense.

Upper Darby Police Superintendent Michael Chitwood said he “did a great job” defending himself, NBC10 reported."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/robber-toy-gun-killed-victim-real-gun-cops-article-1.2105096

[Mr. Whippy]

Another source....

"The man got into a struggle with the toy gunslinger, who was in his 20s. During the fight he took out a .38-caliber handgun, which he’s licensed to carry, and shot the suspect in the head. He died on the scene.

The shooter, who does not have a criminal record, was taken to a hospital with chest pains but is expected to recover, the Delaware County Daily Times reported.

Police said the shooter is unlikely to be charged for the killing because the toy gun looked real, and the man was acting in self-defense.

Upper Darby Police Superintendent Michael Chitwood said he “did a great job” defending himself, NBC10 reported."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/robber-toy-gun-killed-victim-real-gun-cops-article-1.2105096

That's what was reported in local news sources here (Northern Baltimore County isn't all that far from Philadelphia)

[Lichtbote]

Again:  I think it wrong to judge the victim.

Of course it´s all speculation. But it should be very closely checked by the LE if his action was appropriate, or over the top.

Atm. i´m not sure if the real victims are not the family of the dead boy.

[zoidberg]

Again:  I think it wrong to judge the victim.

Of course it´s all speculation. But it should be very closely checked by the LE if his action was appropriate, or over the top.

Atm. i´m not sure if the real victims are not the family of the dead boy.

That may be and most likely was before he was dead. 

[Mr. Whippy]

Again:  I think it wrong to judge the victim.

Of course it´s all speculation. But it should be very closely checked by the LE if his action was appropriate, or over the top.

Atm. i´m not sure if the real victims are not the family of the dead boy.

18-20 year old isn't really a "boy".  It's a young man.  I don't think this was a role-playing game gone wrong.  Knowing Philadelphia (and Baltimore, and Washington DC), this was an attempted armed robbery.

Not to get too political here, but the hotspots of crime in the US (Philly, Balto, Chicago, Detroit, Camden NJ, etc) heavily skew the national crime statistics.  The top 10 hotspots for violent crimes rival some of the worst 3rd world countries. 

With that data stripped out, US violent crime rates are on par with the rest Canada and Western Europe.

[ducttapetech]

Again:  I think it wrong to judge the victim.

Of course it´s all speculation. But it should be very closely checked by the LE if his action was appropriate, or over the top.

Atm. i´m not sure if the real victims are not the family of the dead boy.

I was going to leave this alone..........
The young man should have thought of this before he tried to rob and threatened an old man.

Nate

[captain spaulding]

Again:  I think it wrong to judge the victim.

Of course it´s all speculation. But it should be very closely checked by the LE if his action was appropriate, or over the top.

Atm. i´m not sure if the real victims are not the family of the dead boy.

I was going to leave this alone..........
The young man should have thought of this before he tried to rob and threatened an old man.

Nate

Exactly. Pull a gun (real or fake) and use it in a robbery and you better expect to die. Simple as that.

[Lichtbote]

Exactly. Pull a gun (real or fake) and use it in a robbery and you better expect to die. Simple as that.

Hmm, under such circumstances it indeed might be better to directly kill or cripple the victim first, before taking his money. Better go to jail than get killed.

Such opinions only lead to an spiral of escalation of violence.

[Aloha]

The young man pulls a gun to commit a crime on what most would consider a "easy victim", we cannot determine if the older man knew the gun was real however he did know he was being robbed.

A struggle ensued ( for whatever reason ) and if it wasn't clear the dead guy had a hurtful intent prior to this struggle it was clear at this point. 

I don't think taking a life is as easy as some seem to believe from outside the US.  If responsible gun owners ( the US being high ?? ) were blood thirsty then I can assure you there would be more spilled especially in California. 

The simple and sad reality is crime happens world wide.  We here in the US happen to have the right to carry a gun and some take advantage of it. 

There is no difference other than the ( shock and horror ) of some that a man shot and killed his attacker vs Mr W's scenario of the attacker being struck with a cane or pushed to the ground and loosing his life. 

I feel sorry and can also argue I'm pissed at the dead guys parents ( what kind of person did they raise ? )

This chain of events was triggered ( pun intended ) by the dead guy.

Civilized huh?  I'd honestly love to know where that is, bad stuff happens all over the world.       

[Mr. Whippy]

Exactly. Pull a gun (real or fake) and use it in a robbery and you better expect to die. Simple as that.

Hmm, under such circumstances it indeed might be better to directly kill or cripple the victim first, before taking his money. Better go to jail than get killed.

Such opinions only lead to an spiral of escalation of violence.

I would counter, the act of threatening an individual with extreme violence (ie armed robbery) has already escalated the event.  The data doesn't actually support your contention.  In fact the data is completely murky on whether an armed society is  more or less"safe" than a disarmed one. 

It appears that other societal factors are more important in determining how safe a society is.    The bolded comment is purely speculative. In fact, the Pew Research group looked at the data and came to the conclusion that ALTHOUGH US gun ownership is significantly up in the last 10 years, the actual rate of violent crimes is the LOWEST since the late 1950's/early 1960's.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

That the general population perceives it differently merely points to manipulation of the general populace by media outlets.

Drilling down deeper into the data actually shows that real driver of the gun violence statistics is black on black crime. 

From the 2013 report:


Not saying a Utopian society devoid of firearms wouldn't be grand, but I am saying that blaming the victim who legally owned and legally used his firearm to defend himself against a violent crime (armed robbery) is misplaced.

[Top-Gear-24]

So he ended a life instead of loosing what? 50 bucks? 100 bucks? Or whatever he had in his wallet.

Well, I´m OK with that way of thinking - as long as it stays in the US.

Here in Europe i prefer it to stay the more civilized way as we have it now.

The more we refer to ourselves as being "civilized", the less "civilized" we tend to be.  If you put enough people on a square mile, there are bound to be some *ssholes amongst them, no matter what continent you're on ...

And over here, 99% of the time, it's the victim who pays the heaviest price.  Like the 84 year old man who was robbed at his front door the day he received his pension cheque, in the town where I live (a small town, with about 10.000 inhabitants) a couple of years ago.  He was stabbed like 9 times in the chest with a kitchen knife by a 20 year old ... I sure wish the old man had a gun, because now it was him who dropped dead on his doorstep ... 

Anyway, this topic has the potential do go wrong quite rapidly, so I'm going to stay clear of it from now on  .

[Mr. Whippy]

Potential for trouble yes, but as we've seen several times here at MTO,

The members of MTO are able to disagree on a topic without making it a personal attack and without resorting to nasty retorts.

If this starts heading that way, we'll just lock it down. 

[Aloha]

How the world looks at one another is interesting.  Its all perception and based on ones own life path.  To say we should all react or behave in a certain manner is just not sensible.  There are way to many variable to say there is a correct way to behave in a stressful situation let alone in this particular one.   

I've seen good people under certain circumstances behave in an intense manner.  I'll again agree with MrW in respect to how we "feel" we might behave in similar circumstances vs how we'd actually behave.  If it's the gun ownership issue that stands out for some then that subject is equally and hotly debated over here as well. 

I guess the bottom line for me is the old man is alive and many more potential victims were prevented.  I cant imagine the dead guy was a novice as my life's experience has told be when one brings a "gun" to commit a crime he's been around the block a few times ( if you know what I mean ).