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The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread 1384

No Life Club Posts: 1,270
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2020, 03:04:13 PM »
Shouldn’t they have pliers to count in this thread? Otherwise they’re just pocket knives...

Charles.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,105
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2020, 03:20:40 PM »
I don't think you necessary need to have pliers to be considered a multitool.

No Life Club Posts: 1,357
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2020, 03:52:07 PM »
Shouldn’t they have pliers to count in this thread? Otherwise they’re just pocket knives...

Charles.

 :think:

Good question - I would say not necessarily.  Certainly, the pliers can not be the sine qua non of the classification.  Otherwise, a Vic Deluxe Tinker would qualify.

I think that it needs to be a multitool of some sort, and the knife blade needs to be substantial, and the center of attention... what the tool is based around 

That requires that both of these attributes are defined further.

What qualifies as a multitool can include a SAK or even an old electrician's knife with a screwdriver and a main blade.  Then, of course, there are the plier-centric tools.

Next, we'd need to define what qualifies the tool as being based around the knife blade, rather than the blade being an equal participant in the tool (like a 91mm SAK)
- when there's a plier on the tool, it would mean that the handle of the tool is unmistakably the knife handle, and certainly not a butterfly opening plier handle
- The knife blade must take up the full length of the tool, and be substantial enough to be considered a folder if standing alone.  (one wouldn't describe it as a slipjoint or somesuch)
- A locking mechanism might be a relative qualification... though there are some folders that are nonlocking

So, therefore, there are some criteria that would need to be met to qualify something as a knife-based MT.  Maybe a certain number of established criteria are needed, as there is some variation
- it is a multi-tool - it contains more than one tool
- the handle of the tool is the knife handle,
- the blade, if taken alone, would be considered a folder rather than a slipjoint, or pen knife
- locking blade
- full-length blade

Let's take some examples and see how they play out.

As stated previously, the pliers themselves can't be the main differentiation - otherwise, the Deluxe Tinker would qualify.
- The Gerber Centerdrive has a blade that meets several of the criteria, however, the handle being designed for the pliers disqualifies it.
- The Victorinox One Hand Trekker, would qualify as the handle is molded for the knife, and indeed is backward for the screwdriver.  Also, the blade locks and can be purchased as a folder in the form of the Sentinel.  The same goes for the Rangergrip series. 
- Any medium-sized SAK is disqualified as there are several full-length tools of equal stature, even though some Evogrip models have locking blades. 
- the Leatherman P4 would qualify on all counts, and be considered a multitool on the face of it, rather than a pocketknife.

Those are my thoughts, and of course, I am interested to hear everyone else's ideas. 

You see.... once there are objective criteria, things become less a matter of opinion.

For example.  When we know that a fruit is defined by the flowering part of the plant, we must then agree that a Bell Pepper (or Capsicum) is a fruit, although we usually eat it like a vegetable. 
Hero Member Posts: 809
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2020, 03:49:03 PM »
There is a knife from LAND aka Sanrenmu, a few of them actually which could be included as well.

Sr. Member Posts: 276
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2020, 02:50:40 PM »
How about the Gerber Armbar? While it’s knife based, the focus seems to be the screwdrivers.

"Never pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you."
No Life Club Posts: 1,357
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2020, 07:18:37 PM »
How about the Gerber Armbar? While it’s knife based, the focus seems to be the screwdrivers.

The Armbar certainly qualifies as knife based, in my estimation.

One of these days I plan to get the Armbar Cork.which has a similar toolset compared to the Vic Compact, but the blade is one-hand opening, and locking... therefore, I would certainly call this a knife-based MT in a way that the Vic Compact isn't...  but enough about taxonomy.

They adapted their own Centerdrive bit-driver, it seems. Not a bad decision since it's something they do well.  However, I'm reading that their scissors aren't that great - which is unfortunate since they're Fiskars scissors, technically speaking. 

Most people seem to be underwhelmed with the Armbar Drive, since the awl and the other implements don't have a good detent in the open position. 

With the Cork, it's less important that the tools stay open, so I'm not that worried that I'll have an issue in this regard  :whistle:

What are your thoughts CF?  Is the knife blade reasonable as an EDC?
No Life Club Posts: 1,270
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2020, 07:55:21 PM »
The Armbar Cork just seems like another pocket knife. A slightly beefier swiss army knife. I'd still say knife, not multitool.

the Armbar drive is a failure because the bitdriver doesn't lock (nor does anything else except the blade). That's *the* most important tool on the knife, and without a lock it's completely useless.

Charles.
No Life Club Posts: 2,941
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2020, 06:24:28 PM »
Leatherman Crater C33T/C33Tx were always a favorite of mine in this category..

I knew my wife was a keeper when she transitioned from calling it a knife thingy to a multi-tool.

I might be crazy but it's kept me from going insane- Waylon Jennings
No Life Club Posts: 1,357
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2020, 07:26:00 PM »
Leatherman Crater C33T/C33Tx were always a favorite of mine in this category..

I always liked the Crater - more than the Free series - since it looks to be more pocketable.   I'd have gotten one if it had the LM opener that's on the MTs rather than the carabiner/opener that's on it.  Maybe I'm being silly but I have not-infrequently been at a cookout, a camping trip, or even a pot-luck where nobody had a can opener but me. 

But times and needs change - so maybe it's time to get one
No Life Club Posts: 1,357
No Life Club Posts: 1,270
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2020, 10:54:43 PM »
Found this beauty today... not a knife-based, but instead a razor-knife basis. I really, really like this design, and I wish it was available here. It's not on Amazon.co.uk, so I can't order it easily :/

Link: https://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product/Stanley-0-71-024-3253560710248-Fatmax-Utility-Knife-Multi-Tool

Pic:
Newbie Posts: 33
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2020, 08:22:36 PM »
It's well known that a Vic Outrider is the only knife based multitool anyone ever need,

Nope. The outrider is not OH and any 111mm Vickie with more than three layers becomes too thick to handle,  defeating the point of the ergonomics of 111mm.

A better option?  Get yourself  a forester, a paracord lanyard and attach a Leathy Style PS to it. This setup is still pretty light for EDC and you get to carry paracord, pliers and a better set of scissors . If u need Phillips screwdriver then substitute the forester for a soldier 08.

This imho is closer to the"knife based multi tool setup that you'll ever need"

VICKIES I own:
CLASSICS: Techno ( lost it ) , Edelweiss Green &  Black Alox
91MMs: Cybertool Lite ( My #1 fav EDC) , SoftTouch Climber RT, SoftTouch Desert Digital Camo Huntsman & StayGlow Spartan Lite.
111MMs AND BEYOND: One Handed Forester MWC ( My #4 fav EDC), Soldier 2008, Master RT, Hunter XS, TrailMaster MWC Desert, Rescue Tool Swisstool Spirit ( My # 2 fav EDC ) & Hunter Pro Alox Red.

LEATHIES I own:
Crunch ( My # 3 fav EDC) , Signal, Style CS & Style PS.
No Life Club Posts: 1,357
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2020, 12:58:02 AM »
Nope. The outrider is not OH and any 111mm Vickie with more than three layers becomes too thick to handle,  defeating the point of the ergonomics of 111mm.

A better option?  Get yourself  a forester, a paracord lanyard and attach a Leathy Style PS to it. This setup is still pretty light for EDC and you get to carry paracord, pliers and a better set of scissors . If u need Phillips screwdriver then substitute the forester for a soldier 08.

This imho is closer to the"knife based multi tool setup that you'll ever need"

I'm partial to the Hercules over the Outrider myself because, when you're getting that chunky, might as well go for broke.  That said, if you look at reviews, many of which are on YouTube, the Outrider is up there in popularity, Maybe that's a limit some people have for size. 

Interesting idea with attaching a Style PS via paracord though.    I like the concept, but more for the small blade than the pliers.  I might attach a Micra or Style CS, or even a Vic Classic

I went with the OHT instead of the Forrester because I could only find a OHO blade on the Trekker.  I generally prefer the corkscrew over the Phillips - especially in the woods to untie knots. So that purchase was after some intense searching (only finding one that was shipping from Russia)

I also have a OHO Nomad (think Spartan toolset in 111mm) that I'm happy with, and this pairs nicely with a LM Micra.  That would accompany me on a cookout or something where I was doing food prep and light-duty assembly.

In general though I am resigned to the idea that a knife based multitool should have the tradeoff of a better knife for fewer accessories in order to maintain ergonomics. 
No Life Club Posts: 1,270
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2020, 01:13:59 AM »
I don't mind an extra chunky multitool, so long as it's got the tools I need. My plan is a WorkChamp and scales for a Sentinel, to get the pocket clip. That'd be the perfect camping knife.

Charles.
No Life Club Posts: 1,357
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2020, 01:30:39 AM »
I don't mind an extra chunky multitool, so long as it's got the tools I need. My plan is a WorkChamp and scales for a Sentinel, to get the pocket clip. That'd be the perfect camping knife.

Charles.

I'm surprised more people don't swap out the scales for the pocket clip.  Personally, I only use a suspension clip.  But it seems like most people prefer pocket clips. 
No Life Club Posts: 1,270
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2020, 04:13:05 AM »
What’s a suspension clip?

The reason I bought a Ruike rescue knife over the victorinox was the pocket clip and carabiner...

Charles.
No Life Club Posts: 1,357
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2020, 04:29:43 AM »
What’s a suspension clip?

The reason I bought a Ruike rescue knife over the victorinox was the pocket clip and carabiner...

Charles.

The clip hanging off the Alox Pioneer X is a suspension clip.

Instead of the handle of the knife staying clipped up against the inside of your pocket, regardless of how you stand or sit down..... a suspension clip does the job of keeping the knife easily at hand.  Meanwhile, it lets the rest of the knife go where it wants in the path of least resistance within your pocket.  You don't feel it (if you position the clip in the right place on your pocket).

You can attach this suspension clip to any Victorinox with a keyring.  Mine is a generic P7 clip.  Victorinox makes their own as well, but that clips on your belt and dangles all the way down to your pocket (if I understand it right).
Newbie Posts: 33
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2020, 09:07:15 AM »
I don't mind an extra chunky multitool, so long as it's got the tools I need. My plan is a WorkChamp and scales for a Sentinel, to get the pocket clip. That'd be the perfect camping knife.

Charles.

IMHO If you are willing to deal with the bulkiness and poor ergonomics of something like the Workchamp, I think you're  better off carrying a Swisstool or a Surge. Charge if the Surge is too heavy for you. Swisstool is a meager 40 g more than a workchamp's weight. Either of these do more than the workchamp, they do it better  and with better ergonomics. You can even put carry on clips on them too if you wish.

Look I am a Victorinox fan, I really am. But that doesn't mean that I wont recognize whenever they've designed something that is pointless . The workchamp, hercules and the workchamp xl  ( same goes for the 130 mm one with pliers and such) are difficult to justify when you compare them with other Leathie and even Vicky  plier-based multitools. Yes i know that this thread is about KNIFE based multitools, not PLIER based one. But still, the hercules, workchamps and the plier ranger grips (such as the boatsman and 174)  are examples of tools that were designed as "knife-based" but by cramming too much into them, they rendered them as a worse proposition than a plier based multitool. I still think that if you do not want to carry a plier based multitool and must carry a knife based one, then do so but get a knife based one that is not too unwieldy and complement it with a smaller SAK or something like the Style PS or the likes that has whatever your knife based multitool doesnt have.

Just my two cents.

VICKIES I own:
CLASSICS: Techno ( lost it ) , Edelweiss Green &  Black Alox
91MMs: Cybertool Lite ( My #1 fav EDC) , SoftTouch Climber RT, SoftTouch Desert Digital Camo Huntsman & StayGlow Spartan Lite.
111MMs AND BEYOND: One Handed Forester MWC ( My #4 fav EDC), Soldier 2008, Master RT, Hunter XS, TrailMaster MWC Desert, Rescue Tool Swisstool Spirit ( My # 2 fav EDC ) & Hunter Pro Alox Red.

LEATHIES I own:
Crunch ( My # 3 fav EDC) , Signal, Style CS & Style PS.
No Life Club Posts: 1,357
Re: The Comprehensive Knife Based Multitool Thread
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2020, 04:11:50 PM »
IMHO If you are willing to deal with the bulkiness and poor ergonomics of something like the Workchamp, I think you're  better off carrying a Swisstool or a Surge. Charge if the Surge is too heavy for you. Swisstool is a meager 40 g more than a workchamp's weight. Either of these do more than the workchamp, they do it better  and with better ergonomics. You can even put carry on clips on them too if you wish.

Look I am a Victorinox fan, I really am. But that doesn't mean that I wont recognize whenever they've designed something that is pointless . The workchamp, hercules and the workchamp xl  ( same goes for the 130 mm one with pliers and such) are difficult to justify when you compare them with other Leathie and even Vicky  plier-based multitools. Yes i know that this thread is about KNIFE based multitools, not PLIER based one. But still, the hercules, workchamps and the plier ranger grips (such as the boatsman and 174)  are examples of tools that were designed as "knife-based" but by cramming too much into them, they rendered them as a worse proposition than a plier based multitool. I still think that if you do not want to carry a plier based multitool and must carry a knife based one, then do so but get a knife based one that is not too unwieldy and complement it with a smaller SAK or something like the Style PS or the likes that has whatever your knife based multitool doesnt have.

Just my two cents.

Totally get that - and this idea has stopped me from getting the Rangergrip 74, which on the face of it covers all your bases..... nice big knife, openers and drivers and full-sized pliers.  If you need more plier and you don't mind the belt sheath, they're a good way to go if you're a diehard Vic fan.  For my purposes these days the most I need pliers for is to tighten bits and pieces on camping gear and the little ones on a Vic Hercules are good enough for that. 

You're also pointing out the major advantage of going with a KBMT - the handle has to be comfortable as a knife handle.  So the Workchamp and probably even the Hercules or Outrider lose that advantage.  But again, personal preference varies.  Alexanderre (MTo member) had been a LM guy for a long while and recently has switched over to a Workchamp and seems to be happy as a clam.  Personally, I don't think I want to use any 111mm Vic that's more than 3 layers.  I get the sense for most large hands the Outrider is narrow enough to be comfortable (based on YT reviews).  The same goes for a Pliers based tool - where the advantage can be lost by the ergonomics - (I'm looking at you LM Supertool OG)

So - yep I'd have to agree with you that something as big as a Workchamp could be off the mark when it comes to being useful and "knife based", so it may be better to go with a plier's based tool at that point.  That's even more evident with a Vic Boatsman or Rangergrip 74.  Unless you just want the form factor of a knife above all (which is an assumption in the topic of the thread).  This is where something like a lesser-known brand like Pohaku may have an advantage, where the handle ergonomics favor the knife even though there are medium-sized pliers included.   Or in many/most cases, you'll forgo the pliers entirely and go for something like a Leatherman K4x.

 

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