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Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....

gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
on: October 03, 2015, 11:57:50 AM
There is no doubt that Leatherman have achieved some incredible things throughout their 30 year history. Whilst pliers orientated multitools did exist before the introduction of the PST, once Leatherman hit the scene the market exploded and many knife manufacturers tried to get in on the scene too. Kershaw, Schrade, Spyderco, SOG, Bear and Sons, Victorinox, Wenger, Al Mar, CRKT, Buck, Gerber, and others, have all tried to get in on the scene with varying degrees of success. After 30 years though, for many people, Leatherman has remained the popular choice.

To start with, Leatherman simply offered what was arguably the best options for pliers based tools. To start with their designs were simplistic, but evolved over time as they added little improvements to comfort or performance. Upgrading locks, rolling steel edges or adding zytel for comfort, kept them in front of the competition, and many of the manufacturers gave up their fight.

Gerber's MPT was uncomfortable, and their OTF multipliers pinched badly. Bear's outboard design showed promise but was "agricultural" in build, and full potential wasn't realised until Victorinox bought the rights to the design years later. Others it seems just failed to capture the imagination and passion of the audience, or were cost prohibitive.

As time rolled by, commercial pressures started to take hold as competitors moved their production overseas, and started to offer cheaper alternatives by taking advantage of low labour costs economies. Again, some thrived and some did less well, but Leatherman must have started to feel the pressure. It wasn't just in the world of multitools either, and developed nations became spoiled with the availability of cheaper consumer goods of every description. Leatherman needed to keep pace with this ever cheapening world, and responded very well indeed.

Here in the UK a 2004 generation Wave can be had for the same money, or even less, than their original Wave model twenty years ago. Considering how the company's costs must have increased exponentially over that time, this is a phenomenal achievement. However, it must be said that for the about the same money, I could buy myself a new refridgerator instead, such is the world today.

They achieved this real term deflation of tool costs through investment and production development to improve efficiency and throughput, but also by outsourcing elements of production previously kept inhouse or at least local so they had good better control of what was being produced. While many of their competitors shipped production out wholesale to the developing nations, Leatherman kept the final assembly at Portland so their fine marketting team could continue to beguile their loyal fanbase with their American made product, even if it was made from cheaper parts sourced elsewhere.

Recently however, it seems their endeavours to compete have become more strained.

Leatherman took active and visible steps towards making tools such as eliminating the Zytel range and moving back towards rolled steel handles. Their ST300 was very well received, and further down the line so was the Rebar. But not by everyone. Some people feel that the Rebar doesn't capture the superior feel of some of their earlier tools, though many remain enamoured with the newer style plier head. A development that helps shift the cost of ensuring the wire cutters longevity from the manufacturer to the consumer.

Other developments showed Leatherman trying to entice younger people in sporting arenas with their acquisition of a one piece tool manufacturer, and branch out into other specific social sectors with tools designed for kids, low budget offerings, the booming trend for survival oriented products, and even a wearable multitool. Some lapped up these new offerings with the same undying loyalty and passion, whilst others looked on bemused. What was happening to their beloved Leatherman?

I believe that a crunch point (no pun intended) has been reached over recent years, and the potential for achieving further efficiency so stop prices escalating has now dried up. Leatherman were faced with the option of letting their tool prices start to climb in line with their own continually growing costs, or start to offer cheaper to make products even if these didn't have the superiority of the older tools. They appear to have chosen to compete head on with the competition just as they did in the old days, but whereas before people were trying to offer a "better" tool, these days their main competition is from "cheaper" tools. Leatherman have gone cheap with the Wingman, Sidekick and Rev but also seem to have tried to reset the pricing structures with a retail price of $120 on the Signal. Their cost cutting in production is becoming all to evident though, quality issues seem to be higher than before, and the loyal fanbase seems a little more fractious.

So where to next? Leatherman cannot produce the old quality and continue to strive to offer the best tools available at the bargain basement prices that most consumers (including us here) are barely willing to pay. It's simply not possible. Which direction should Leatherman then take, and why?

Should they offer the best tools available, at significantly higher prices than anywhere else, knowing that this will lose a huge part of sales? Or should they offer cheaper tools to compete, knowing that this means their tools won't be as good as they used to be, buy at least folks might be more prepared to buy them than the "proper" tools at "proper" prices?

Be honest, which way would you prefer them to go? After all, it's your money they're trying to get you to part with


The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad


ua Offline in_sympathy

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #1 on: October 03, 2015, 12:26:35 PM
Best tools of course, I don't mind buying one tool even for 80-200$ in 25 years if it lasts that long


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us Offline Barry Rowland

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #2 on: October 03, 2015, 12:31:05 PM
+1.  Alexanderre is right, quality is worth the cost.  Look at the Swisstool: it sells very well at well over $100 a piece.  I think Leatherman needs to turn out Wave level quality and use tool grade stainless on all their tools.  Having a screwdriver snap on a job doesn't settle well, especially when I have a PST, PST II, and an original Supertool that can stand the strain of hard (not abusive) use and still shine.
Barry


cy Offline dks

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #3 on: October 03, 2015, 01:30:00 PM
The only solution seems to be to move all production to China, Indonesia, India etc. Mexico or eastern Europe, whilst maintaining the same standards, through proper QA. Buck, Spuderco, Casio, Cree, Canon, VW  :P and various others have been able to produce quality products cheaper, this way.

If they made LM in Europe, even in an expensive country, the taxes and thus the final product price will be less.

A lot of people seem to miss the rise of the dollar - As I have been pointing out for donkeys the dollar is very strong and thus all US products, even if they appear cheap to the US citizens, are expensive for users of other currencies.


EDIT - spelling  :)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 02:17:21 PM by dks »
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us Offline sawman

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #4 on: October 03, 2015, 02:12:05 PM
First off, I enjoyed your essay.

As for LM, it's a shame where they're going, but at least we still have Gerber and Victorinox :tu:
SAW


us Offline Demel

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #5 on: October 03, 2015, 02:34:02 PM
Great write up. You always have good insights. I am on the side of producing the best quality tool and taking the hit of higher cost. Don't give me a gimmicky tool for the cost of a premium one. I want my tools to last so one day I can past them on to my son or even grandson (might be rusted by then but you get the point) Leatherman is what got me into multis but the quality precision of Victorinox has moved LM into second place. Develop tools, perfect qc  standards, and LISTEN TO YOUR FAN BASE!!! Not the mall ninjas, but the ones that will still buy tools from you 5-10 years from now. :cheers:
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us Offline sLaughterMed

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #6 on: October 03, 2015, 03:22:17 PM
First off, I enjoyed your essay.

As for LM, it's a shame where they're going, but at least we still have Gerber and Victorinox :tu:
Im going to have to disagree with  statement on Gerber. While the MP600 & MP400 are excellent tools, their design comes from the same era as the PST II (same tooling since 1992!). Can you imagine how inexpensive a Super Tool would be if it was still in production? Most of the tools that have come out of Gerber recently have been fairly poor (AutoPlier anyone?).

I think I may be one of the only ones who prefers LMs new tools over the (very) old ones (still trying to find some Pulse era tools to compare to).

I think that the refinments and tweaks have done a good job at keeping LM relevant. The new wirecutters, while pushing some cost onto consumers, also addressed a longstanding weak point in all their tools (they still repair replacable cutters under warranty, just like old ones). The skeletool, while totally different, stays true to LM tradition for quality (and bad ergos :D).

Having said that, im not sure 2015 was their best year
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us Offline BASguy

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #7 on: October 03, 2015, 03:51:29 PM
Leatherman is following suit with Craftsman.  Sears had a premium line with the Craftsman brand and they were able to offset that with a low end offering from their "Sears" brand.  Unfortunately they gambled on name reputation of their premium product and ultimately destroyed it to drive sales.   Leatherman could easily compete by outsourcing 90% of its production and pulling the Wave, ST, and Rebar models into a premium brand line. 



Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #8 on: October 03, 2015, 04:44:38 PM
I think 50ft-trad's question posed to us is a false dichotomy. It doesn't have to be one or the other, and it doesn't seem like Leatherman thinks so either.

It seems like they're doing both: Making high end expensive tools (like the MUT, Charge, and arguably even the Wave) AND making bargain tools (Sidekick/Wingman/Rev).

Will this strategy work? I don't know. I DO know that Leatherman's Sidekick/Wingman/Rev tools are the best new MT you can get at their price-point.

The best answer I can find as to the original price for a PST is $39.95. That was 1983 dollars. That'd be $95.59 in today's dollars. But Lowes' carries the Rev at $20. I'd take the Rev at $20 over any other plier-based tool at the same price point. I think I could also make a reasonable case that the Rev is a better tool than the PST (and i bet I'm going to get hate for that).

On the high end... You're dealing with a more niche market. At the over-$100 price point, Leatherman has offerings like the Charge, which is essentially the Wave with upgraded materials. If you WANT more premium materials, you can get a tool that matches your desire, for a price. There's the fairly function-specific MUT. For people who want that function, and will pay the price, the tool is available.

I may not like one piece tools, and sport-specific offerings, and I may not be their target audience for the Tread or Leap, but they are trying a degree of diversification that is between Victorinox's NO NEW THINGS strategy, and Gerber's TRY EVERY STUPID NEW THING strategy.

As for moving production overseas... I wonder why they moved production to Japan, then moved it back. If it was to keep 'made in america' as a selling point, they've lost that. Maybe it was rising production costs in Japan. I dunno. But it seems they have at least dabbled in overseas production, and decided against it. Of course, that was 30ish years ago, and market forces will change over time.

There may come a time when they move production of their less expensive models overseas, and retain production of their 'premium' lines in the U.S. It's possible that low-cost crap tools from other manufacturers will eventually kill the Leatherman company altogether. AND it's possible that an overseas manufacturer will start making really good tools, and compete with Leatherman in quality, and simply push Leatherman out of the market by actually making better products.

My feeling right now is that Leatherman is doing it about right. That said, while they might be doing about the best they can, it still doesn't mean they'll survive.


us Offline SteveC

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #9 on: October 03, 2015, 05:43:00 PM
Well said Lynn and I agree with most of what you said.  :tu:

  PST is better than the Rev  :pok:



gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #10 on: October 03, 2015, 06:04:20 PM
Lynne, with respect you have a slightly different take on their present from what I can see, but my question was based more to the future.

Yes, they have the ultra cheap line, and I would rather take up a Gerber Suspension than one of those, but that's just a personal perspective.

Yes, they are still producing the higher end tools, which I acknowledged and then applauded their efforts thus far to prevent prices increasing. However I feel this has reached a point where this has reached a point where the only further savings are likely to result in a compromise of the tool as eluded to in the OP

Yes, they are trying different angles, but these are neither high end quality, nor are they budget offerings. They seem adrift in the market, hoping the name will be enough to carry the (in my opinion), poor designs, horrendous ergonomics, and compromised functionality.

The question still remains of where next.

They could maintain a low budget line, and with a bit of design forethought the tools don't need to be as awful to use as the ones they're offering now without bumping the price too much. They could maintain the upper line, but do they continue to cheapen the tools and compromise them or let the sales costs escalate? As to the "speSmurfpillst offerings", should they be cost biased, or quality biased?

We will all have varying opinions as to where they are right now, but it's beyond question that they seem to be facing more dismay in their designs and quality now than was apparent in the past. Some still adore them, some have drifted away, and some are teetering. The same question goes out to everyone, what next? What should be their focus for the future, cost at the expense of quality, or quality at the expense of cost. It seems the ones where neither is the focus (Signal being the prime example at the moment), are the ones suffering the most scrutiny


The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #11 on: October 03, 2015, 06:15:24 PM
So, let me repeat, but greatly boil down my point. There is no NEED to pick either high end/high quality OR budget lines. They can (and IMO, should) continue both.

If market demands force it, I'd say move the budget line to overseas manufacture, and keep high-end line in the U.S.

In fact, I think they should bite the bullet, and bring manufacturing of ALL parts of the high-end stuff back to the U.S. and use that as a selling point on the high-end tools.

Hope that clarifies.

As for preferring the Suspension over Sidekick/Wingman/Rev... I guess that's why there are lots of MT options. We can all get something we're (at least marginally) happy with.  :salute:



gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #12 on: October 03, 2015, 06:36:22 PM
Much clearer, thanks Lynn  :cheers:

That would certainly draw a clearer separation between the budget line and the pro tools, and I don't see that as a bad thing if they were clearly marketted as such. I wonder how much of a price impact if would have to bring the pro line back in-house 100%. I wouldn't be surprised if that doubled the costs in some areas, not taking into account future cost movement. Would there still be the demand for such tools at those prices, or would the consumer feel the cost exceeds the value?

I know this is all hypothetical, but this is what I'm trying to get a perspective of from our members. If we acknowledge the very real situation underlying the prices we have to pay, how far are we prepared to let the prices rise to attain the quality we expect, and do we think there's enough people out there who feel the same for the company to continue to thrive in years and decades to come.

I know some folks here want they very best and are prepared to pay premiums to get that, whereas others would draw the line at a specific price point and resent going over that, and this will be reflected in the wider market.

To simplify the discussion, let's assume that they will continue to offer a budget line, cost focussed, and making whatever they can for the price set. Let's focus more on the pro tools and whether the costs should rise to maintain/improve quality, or compromises made to maintain the price point, and where in the spectrum the speciality offerings should fall, favouring the quality of the pro tools, or the low costs of the budget tools


The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad


00 Offline kirk13

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #13 on: October 03, 2015, 07:17:23 PM
From my position,behind the portcullis of Blamington Hall,I've stashed a number of PST+ PST2, a Pulse,two Sideclips,and two ST200s.

I don't give a hoot what Leatherman do next.
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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #14 on: October 03, 2015, 07:25:13 PM
 :rofl:


The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad


us Offline BASguy

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #15 on: October 03, 2015, 07:55:19 PM
High end tools deserve a premium price, and it's excepted by the buyers.  Leatherman's problem is they are clearly producing both high and low end offerings, but are jeopardizing their reputation by not distinguishing the lines and by shoving crap out the door in epic QC fails across the board.  No.....I disagree that this is doing it just about right. 


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun


us Offline Obi1shinobee

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #16 on: October 03, 2015, 08:11:39 PM
High end tools deserve a premium price, and it's excepted by the buyers.  Leatherman's problem is they are clearly producing both high and low end offerings, but are jeopardizing their reputation by not distinguishing the lines and by shoving crap out the door in epic QC fails across the board.  No.....I disagree that this is doing it just about right. 


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

 :tu:


us Offline rdub934

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #17 on: October 03, 2015, 08:17:03 PM
Lynn summed up my opinions on this issue pretty well spot on. They should just maintain the Hi/Lo approach to cover as many bases as they can.

If prices need to rise in order to maintain quality levels, so be it. Personally speaking though, I couldn't see paying $150 for a new Wave, regardless of quality, when I have been served so well by my Wingman for the past 3+ years. So, at least in some peoples minds, they would be undermining themselves by offering the budget line (which is still so good) and the high-end line.
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gb Offline Zed

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #18 on: October 03, 2015, 08:45:22 PM
I remember my dad saying that my wave he got me back in 98 cost £100 so more expensive than now  :think: have too say that i still prefer the original wave  :salute:


us Offline Kampfer

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #19 on: October 03, 2015, 09:29:07 PM
I been pretty disappointed with Leatherman for sometime now, now I feel even worst after the Signal. :-\
EDC: Black Talon, Black Cat, Spirit, LD02


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #20 on: October 03, 2015, 10:18:50 PM
I been pretty disappointed with Leatherman for sometime now, now I feel even worst after the Signal. :-\


So which direction would you prefer they go in from here?  :pok:


The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad


us Offline Kampfer

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #21 on: October 03, 2015, 10:28:18 PM
I been pretty disappointed with Leatherman for sometime now, now I feel even worst after the Signal. :-\

So which direction would you prefer they go in from here?  :pok:
In recent years, seen like Leatherman been focusing on special interest groups like military, paramedic, snowboarder, skateboarder, surfers, kids now survivalist. To me, a multitool should be general purpose and multipurpose.
They are really on the wrong track.

I know they try to make money, who doesn't? But....
I know a lot of people serving / served  in military, but none of them willing to shell out that kind of money for a MUT or OHT.
Two of the paramedics I know refuse to use Raptor because it is impossible to clean after use. Plus they like to use free stuff.
Snowboarders, I don't know many of them but I am under the impression that after paying for lift ticket, pizza and beer they won't have much money left.
All the skateboarders I know are flat broke.
Surfers, they wear shorts how to carry any tools?
Kids, a squirt would be more than enough for them.
EDC: Black Talon, Black Cat, Spirit, LD02


gb Offline Zed

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #22 on: October 03, 2015, 10:51:53 PM
I think they need too concentrate on there CQ a bit more  ::)


us Offline BASguy

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #23 on: October 03, 2015, 10:56:21 PM

I remember my dad saying that my wave he got me back in 98 cost £100 so more expensive than now  :think: have too say that i still prefer the original wave  :salute:

The OG Wave was their finest hour.  It was pretty much downhill after that IMO


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun


us Offline BASguy

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #24 on: October 03, 2015, 10:59:07 PM

I think they need too concentrate on there CQ a bit more  ::)

+1


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gb Offline Zed

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #25 on: October 03, 2015, 10:59:39 PM

I remember my dad saying that my wave he got me back in 98 cost £100 so more expensive than now  :think: have too say that i still prefer the original wave  :salute:

The OG Wave was their finest hour.  It was pretty much downhill after that IMO


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

 :tu: its not without its downfalls,ie i wish it had the same locking as the old super tool had, for its inside tools,but for me its still the mt i judge others by  :salute:


us Offline BASguy

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #26 on: October 03, 2015, 11:03:22 PM

I been pretty disappointed with Leatherman for sometime now, now I feel even worst after the Signal. :-\

So which direction would you prefer they go in from here?  :pok:
In recent years, seen like Leatherman been focusing on special interest groups like military, paramedic, snowboarder, skateboarder, surfers, kids now survivalist. To me, a multitool should be general purpose and multipurpose.
They are really on the wrong track.

I know they try to make money, who doesn't? But....
I know a lot of people serving / served  in military, but none of them willing to shell out that kind of money for a MUT or OHT.
Two of the paramedics I know refuse to use Raptor because it is impossible to clean after use. Plus they like to use free stuff.
Snowboarders, I don't know many of them but I am under the impression that after paying for lift ticket, pizza and beer they won't have much money left.
All the skateboarders I know are flat broke.
Surfers, they wear shorts how to carry any tools?
Kids, a squirt would be more than enough for them.

This is an area I think Leatherman has done well in.  In general, I wish they wouldn't put so much branding focus on it, but I do think specialty tools  are a good idea.  At the very least they've made nice gifts for family members.


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun


us Offline BASguy

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #27 on: October 03, 2015, 11:03:36 PM


I been pretty disappointed with Leatherman for sometime now, now I feel even worst after the Signal. :-\

So which direction would you prefer they go in from here?  :pok:
In recent years, seen like Leatherman been focusing on special interest groups like military, paramedic, snowboarder, skateboarder, surfers, kids now survivalist. To me, a multitool should be general purpose and multipurpose.
They are really on the wrong track.

I know they try to make money, who doesn't? But....
I know a lot of people serving / served  in military, but none of them willing to shell out that kind of money for a MUT or OHT.
Two of the paramedics I know refuse to use Raptor because it is impossible to clean after use. Plus they like to use free stuff.
Snowboarders, I don't know many of them but I am under the impression that after paying for lift ticket, pizza and beer they won't have much money left.
All the skateboarders I know are flat broke.
Surfers, they wear shorts how to carry any tools?
Kids, a squirt would be more than enough for them.


This is an area I think Leatherman has done well in.  In general, I wish they wouldn't put so much branding focus on it, but I do think specialty tools  are a good idea.  At the very least they've made nice gifts for family members.


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun


us Offline Aloha

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #28 on: October 03, 2015, 11:48:58 PM
My take is they need to watch what goes out the door with their name on it!  Quality, quality, and more quality.  I dont care if its a skateboard tool or a fricken skydiving tool just make sure you are sending out tools that are ready to do their jobs.

On the subject of older tools vs newer ones, while I love my Gen1 Wave it is no match to my new version Wave.  Those nubs that prevent the outside tools from rotating on the old Wave have failed on tools that I've seen and had.  The notch on the new version is IMO a much better design. 

I can nit pick a few other things back and forth its not really that important.  Also it really doesn't matter because I like the new Wave period. 

I have no issues with the Siekick/Wingman line as for some these tools were "lures" to get people in the Leatherman door.  In some cases it worked,  while in others those "lures" became these buyers go to tools.  I see this as win/win in my book.

As far as specialized tools or niche tools, don't buy them if they don't pertain to you.  Just because LM decides to produce these tools in my mind doesn't mean they have forgotten the larger audience.  So they ventured out? 

I get confused when I hear on one hand groups calling for "out the box" thinking yet scowl when it happens.  The MUT is the MUT regardless if the Tread exisits or not.  In no way does the Tread for those who dislike it take away from the Crunch for those who like it.

Lets reel it back in for a sec, these are Multipupose tools not task specific tools y'all.  They are gonna lack in one area or several for that matter.  They will also produce in a many circumstance as well. 

Preference is a huge component when MTO talks MTs not to mention the specifics of what one does to earn their living.  So you had a bad LM tool and it didn't fit your needs?  We saw even the beloved Spirit in "Wobble Gate".  So what?  I remember a post about a tool not performing due to it making a clicking noise  :think:.  The tool mind you never once saw a nut/screw/bolt it was clicking grabbing AIR  :twak:

Alright yes Leatherman needs to tighten up and not let tools leave their facility flawed.  My friend last year got me a ST300 and Surge from the LM factory and both were without issue.  Yes my Wave ( not BO one ) had sharp edges and some of the grinds were off on the blades.  For all intent and purpose these tools WORK regardless.  Agreed it should be better and they should be producing tools that are consistently higher fit and finish.

I am not saying they get a pass because I prefer Leatherman, not at all.  I dont feel they are in anyway "on the way out" either.       

 

Esse Quam Videri


us Offline BASguy

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #29 on: October 04, 2015, 12:13:10 AM


I am not saying they get a pass because I prefer Leatherman, not at all.  I dont feel they are in anyway "on the way out" either.     

What's on the way out is their reputation for quality.  That is not really in dispute anymore. 


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun


 

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