Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....

[Aloha]

I am not saying they get a pass because I prefer Leatherman, not at all.  I dont feel they are in anyway "on the way out" either.     

What's on the way out is their reputation for quality.  That is not really in dispute anymore. 


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

For those with tools they feel are not up to snuff EH, for those with legitimate issues that have been documented here NO DOUBT.  I cannot say the quality issues apply to me, uneven grinds, sharp edges, lightly stamped dates in my book are silly gripes. 

This could be said about Chevy from my experience as they continue to produce poo IMO.   

[rishardh]

To answer 50ft's question and if I could only select either or I would say build quality tools at a higher price and not cheap tools to compete in the market.

That said, I believe they are trying to do both and failing because they decided not to make the cheaper tools overseas. If they did they could have kept the Wingman/Sidekick at $25 and not introduce the Rev which seem to be a mistake. Even the name seem odd. The signal could have been made to sell for $50 and everyone would be happy because we do not expect too much from the cheaper tools.

I am on board for diversifying their products and trying to build their customer base. If you do not grow you will get killed in the end. That said they should not forget their base customers. When are they going to give us the ST400 and Wave3?

[BASguy]

Leatherman could easily make inexpensive tools to compete in all market segments.  Their issues have not been in build material/options it's been in an across the board failure of QC.
The Signal really strikes me as good idea.  It's geared to a specific market segment, which I think is a smart play.  The screw up is the ridiculous price point and the crap output.  I've seen this tool, and I got to use it for a full day at work.  It's a joke.  Even if I was out in the bush..... The tool is an under performing overpriced turd. 
However, some minor design improvements, real QC, and cutting the price by 60% and they've got a winner. 


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

[Mextreme]

I really hope they keep production in the U.S. I think they still have the distinct American feel on most of their offerings that beg to be used. I fell in love with the no nonsense, no frills all business of the original PST and still regard Leatherman as an iconic company.
If Victorinox can produce in Switzerland, argubly most expensive country in the world, Leatherman can stay in the U.S. Clever production, standardisation and automation is key.
I belive they should build on what made them great and only add clever additions, less gimmicky, work more with direct input from users.
They should benefit from using the made in U.S.A. and Oregon fact more. it is important in many aspects.

[zoidberg]

Snowboarders, I don't know many of them but I am under the impression that after paying for lift ticket, pizza and beer they won't have much money left.
All the skateboarders I know are flat broke.
Surfers, they wear shorts how to carry any tools?

Great stereotype of board riders. 

[zoidberg]

My take is they need to watch what goes out the door with their name on it!  Quality, quality, and more quality.  I dont care if its a skateboard tool or a fricken skydiving tool just make sure you are sending out tools that are ready to do their jobs.

 

[pingu]

....I've stashed a number of PST+ PST2, a Pulse,two Sideclips,and two ST200s.

I don't give a hoot what Leatherman do next.

Unfortunately I was late into MTs and don't have any of the heritage products.  Putting my own spin on the quoted sentiment I say that LM are architects of their potential demise with their almost no questions asked warranty.  Break a tool, get a new one or at least a factory refurbished one.   As an engineer I'm troubled at reports of basically sound and well engineered tools getting broken.  Wrong tool for the job methinks.

Plus on MTs I'm almost bought up.  I suspect that applies to most of us.  In the last year I've more or less only bought flashlights. Next year maybe something else.   Car (auto) makers know that a new for old warranty isn't needed.  Or affordable.  Make an adequately good product and users will buy new a few years down the line.

So my suggestion for LM is strip out the warranty cost and make it affordable for users to renew like they would their vehicles.  And as far as product innovation is concerned, what's the big problem with Rebar II, Rebar III etc.  Or non-locking blades.  China has banned locking folder carry and now produces some brilliant value non-locking folders.  LM beware that they crack the secret of MT design which up to now has eluded them.

[Mextreme]

....I've stashed a number of PST+ PST2, a Pulse,two Sideclips,and two ST200s.

I don't give a hoot what Leatherman do next.

Unfortunately I was late into MTs and don't have any of the heritage products.  Putting my own spin on the quoted sentiment I say that LM are architects of their potential demise with their almost no questions asked warranty.  Break a tool, get a new one or at least a factory refurbished one.   As an engineer I'm troubled at reports of basically sound and well engineered tools getting broken.  Wrong tool for the job methinks.

Plus on MTs I'm almost bought up.  I suspect that applies to most of us.  In the last year I've more or less only bought flashlights. Next year maybe something else.   Car (auto) makers know that a new for old warranty isn't needed.  Or affordable.  Make an adequately good product and users will buy new a few years down the line.

So my suggestion for LM is strip out the warranty cost and make it affordable for users to renew like they would their vehicles.  And as far as product innovation is concerned, what's the big problem with Rebar II, Rebar III etc.  Or non-locking blades.  China has banned locking folders and now produces some brilliant value folders.  LM beware that they crack the secret of MT design which up to now has eluded them.

I agree on the warranty. I don't want to pay for idiots getting substituted for grinding their blades on high speed wheels and other obvious misuses.

[gregozedobe]

..... I say that LM are architects of their potential demise with their almost no questions asked warranty.  Break a tool, get a new one or at least a factory refurbished one.   As an engineer I'm troubled at reports of basically sound and well engineered tools getting broken.  Wrong tool for the job methinks.

Plus on MTs I'm almost bought up.  I suspect that applies to most of us.  In the last year I've more or less only bought flashlights. Next year maybe something else.   Car (auto) makers know that a new for old warranty isn't needed.  Or affordable.  Make an adequately good product and users will buy new a few years down the line.

So my suggestion for LM is strip out the warranty cost and make it affordable for users to renew like they would their vehicles. 

It troubles me that people can buy a broken LM MT cheaply, then send it in to LM for a free repair or replacement when the tool was obviously abused.  It must cost LM quite a lot, thus driving up prices for the tools they are currently selling.

[in_sympathy]

The only solution seems to be to move all production to China, Indonesia, India etc. Mexico or eastern Europe, whilst maintaining the same standards, through proper QA. Buck, Spuderco, Casio, Cree, Canon, VW  and various others have been able to produce quality products cheaper, this way.

If they made LM in Europe, even in an expensive country, the taxes and thus the final product price will be less.

A lot of people seem to miss the rise of the dollar - As I have been pointing out for donkeys the dollar is very strong and thus all US products, even if they appear cheap to the US citizens, are expensive for users of other currencies.


EDIT - spelling 

Welcome to Ukraine, Leatherman, we've got all you need here - ore, chemicals, labor and we are cheap enough. Just as a comparison Ukraine is a #1 country in Eastern Europe in software development outsourcing


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Dream. Wish. Leave nothing undone. Repeat.

[in_sympathy]

So, let me repeat, but greatly boil down my point. There is no NEED to pick either high end/high quality OR budget lines. They can (and IMO, should) continue both.

If market demands force it, I'd say move the budget line to overseas manufacture, and keep high-end line in the U.S.

In fact, I think they should bite the bullet, and bring manufacturing of ALL parts of the high-end stuff back to the U.S. and use that as a selling point on the high-end tools.

Hope that clarifies.

As for preferring the Suspension over Sidekick/Wingman/Rev... I guess that's why there are lots of MT options. We can all get something we're (at least marginally) happy with. 

+1


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Dream. Wish. Leave nothing undone. Repeat.

[in_sympathy]

I been pretty disappointed with Leatherman for sometime now, now I feel even worst after the Signal.

So which direction would you prefer they go in from here? 

In recent years, seen like Leatherman been focusing on special interest groups like military, paramedic, snowboarder, skateboarder, surfers, kids now survivalist. To me, a multitool should be general purpose and multipurpose.
They are really on the wrong track.

I know they try to make money, who doesn't? But....
I know a lot of people serving / served  in military, but none of them willing to shell out that kind of money for a MUT or OHT.
Two of the paramedics I know refuse to use Raptor because it is impossible to clean after use. Plus they like to use free stuff.
Snowboarders, I don't know many of them but I am under the impression that after paying for lift ticket, pizza and beer they won't have much money left.
All the skateboarders I know are flat broke.
Surfers, they wear shorts how to carry any tools?
Kids, a squirt would be more than enough for them.

This is an area I think Leatherman has done well in.  In general, I wish they wouldn't put so much branding focus on it, but I do think specialty tools  are a good idea.  At the very least they've made nice gifts for family members.


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

They probably should learn a few tricks from Apple of 1997. When Steve returned he only kept two main directions - portable and desktop, both of those also had a pro and consumer line. Other cryptic and stupid projects were immediately shut down. Maybe that's the way. And also look at other American manufacturers like Gibson and Fender, both still making guitars in the US, but having Epiphone and Squier lines built in China, Indonesia, Malaysia and so on.


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Dream. Wish. Leave nothing undone. Repeat.

[BASguy]

They probably should learn a few tricks from Apple of 1997. When Steve returned he only kept two main directions - portable and desktop, both of those also had a pro and consumer line. Other cryptic and stupid projects were immediately shut down. Maybe that's the way. And also look at other American manufacturers like Gibson and Fender, both still making guitars in the US, but having Epiphone and Squier lines built in China, Indonesia, Malaysia and so on.


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Dream. Wish. Leave nothing undone. Repeat.
[/quote]

+1


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

[BASguy]

I think the Sears/Craftsman model works well as an example.  It was a successful business format that was destroyed by greed and failure to understand their core customers.


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

[Etherealicer]

[...]
They probably should learn a few tricks from Apple of 1997. When Steve returned he only kept two main directions - portable and desktop, both of those also had a pro and consumer line. Other cryptic and stupid projects were immediately shut down. Maybe that's the way. And also look at other American manufacturers like Gibson and Fender, both still making guitars in the US, but having Epiphone and Squier lines built in China, Indonesia, Malaysia and so on.

Apple / Steve Jobs is also famous for not listening to his customers as "Customers don’t know what they want"

I think LM is trying to diversify. Fulfilling the needs of different groups
Wave, Surge, ST300, Rebar for hard, everyday use
Cheaper Sidekick, Wingman, Rev, SkeleFool for the more occasional / light use
OPTs (easy to produce) for more specific needs (also helps carry the name to younger users).
Anniversary, special editions for collectors and fans
Signal, Thread for couch survivalists.

I see the Signal and especially the Thread similar to the Perfume Victorinox produces. If that is what it takes to keep the company profitable, why would/should I complain. Expecting a company to only produce stuff for me I find a bit egoistic and I think we have no right to complain as long as they produce the good stuff too.

Also, post #6000

[in_sympathy]

[...]
They probably should learn a few tricks from Apple of 1997. When Steve returned he only kept two main directions - portable and desktop, both of those also had a pro and consumer line. Other cryptic and stupid projects were immediately shut down. Maybe that's the way. And also look at other American manufacturers like Gibson and Fender, both still making guitars in the US, but having Epiphone and Squier lines built in China, Indonesia, Malaysia and so on.

Apple / Steve Jobs is also famous for not listening to his customers as "Customers don’t know what they want"

I think LM is trying to diversify. Fulfilling the needs of different groups
Wave, Surge, ST300, Rebar for hard, everyday use
Cheaper Sidekick, Wingman, Rev, SkeleFool for the more occasional / light use
OPTs (easy to produce) for more specific needs (also helps carry the name to younger users).
Anniversary, special editions for collectors and fans
Signal, Thread for couch survivalists.

I see the Signal and especially the Thread similar to the Perfume Victorinox produces. If that is what it takes to keep the company profitable, why would/should I complain. Expecting a company to only produce stuff for me I find a bit egoistic and I think we have no right to complain as long as they produce the good stuff too.

Also, post #6000

Good point


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Dream. Wish. Leave nothing undone. Repeat.

[BASguy]

[...]
They probably should learn a few tricks from Apple of 1997. When Steve returned he only kept two main directions - portable and desktop, both of those also had a pro and consumer line. Other cryptic and stupid projects were immediately shut down. Maybe that's the way. And also look at other American manufacturers like Gibson and Fender, both still making guitars in the US, but having Epiphone and Squier lines built in China, Indonesia, Malaysia and so on.

Apple / Steve Jobs is also famous for not listening to his customers as "Customers don’t know what they want"

I think LM is trying to diversify. Fulfilling the needs of different groups
Wave, Surge, ST300, Rebar for hard, everyday use
Cheaper Sidekick, Wingman, Rev, SkeleFool for the more occasional / light use
OPTs (easy to produce) for more specific needs (also helps carry the name to younger users).
Anniversary, special editions for collectors and fans
Signal, Thread for couch survivalists.

I see the Signal and especially the Thread similar to the Perfume Victorinox produces. If that is what it takes to keep the company profitable, why would/should I complain. Expecting a company to only produce stuff for me I find a bit egoistic and I think we have no right to complain as long as they produce the good stuff too.

Also, post #6000

Good point


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Dream. Wish. Leave nothing undone. Repeat.

Analysis seems spot on.  I don't really have an issue with their offerings, though I think they would do well to clearly separate the brand offerings.  This would allow them to outsource the low end tools and protect the brand integrity.  ***However, NONE of this matters if they can't get a handle on QC. 
Bad designs (Signal) can be overcome with engineering modifications, but it's all irrelevant if you keep shoving out the door


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

[Top-Gear-24]

...
Should they offer the best tools available, at significantly higher prices than anywhere else, knowing that this will lose a huge part of sales? Or should they offer cheaper tools to compete, knowing that this means their tools won't be as good as they used to be, buy at least folks might be more prepared to buy them than the "proper" tools at "proper" prices?

Be honest, which way would you prefer them to go? After all, it's your money they're trying to get you to part with

I'll be honest  .

I think over here, we already pay enough for any Leatherman tool to expect a quality tool.  At the local shop, a Leatherman Wave costs 150 Euro ($168), while I bought my Victorinox Spirit in the same store for 94 Euro ($105).  A Leatherman Surge costs 190 Euro ($213) while a Victorinox Swisstool costs 130 Euro ($146).  I mean, how much higher could these prices be before people would stop buying them, I know they are reaching my limits, and I'm a "multitool collector", not somebody who would just like to get one of these multitool thingies because somebody at work had one of those ...

For example, I would really like Leatherman to make a new version of the Wave (or a ST400  ), but if they would sell this "new Wave" at 170 Euro ($190) instead of the 150 Euro ($168) that the current Wave costs, I would probably let it pass ... 

Come to think of it, I already reached my point, because I will not buy any Leatherman at a local dealer anymore.  I used to prefere buying my tools at one of the local shops, and I didn't mind paying a bit more there than I would if I bought online, but these days the price difference is just ridiculous.

I read here that you can find the Leatherman Rev for $20 in the U.S., over here the Rev costs 50 Euro ($56), I wonder if anyone in The States would buy a Rev at that price ... And I know that we have to pay import taxes and stuff like that over here, but at some point, too much is too much if you know what I mean ...

I don't want to be a cheapskate, but life is becoming more and more expensive, and sadly enough my paycheck isn't following this evolution, so at some point a choice will have to be made ...  .

Just my humble opinion, as always ...  .

[AimlessWanderer]

[...]
They probably should learn a few tricks from Apple of 1997. When Steve returned he only kept two main directions - portable and desktop, both of those also had a pro and consumer line. Other cryptic and stupid projects were immediately shut down. Maybe that's the way. And also look at other American manufacturers like Gibson and Fender, both still making guitars in the US, but having Epiphone and Squier lines built in China, Indonesia, Malaysia and so on.

Apple / Steve Jobs is also famous for not listening to his customers as "Customers don’t know what they want"

I think LM is trying to diversify. Fulfilling the needs of different groups
Wave, Surge, ST300, Rebar for hard, everyday use
Cheaper Sidekick, Wingman, Rev, SkeleFool for the more occasional / light use
OPTs (easy to produce) for more specific needs (also helps carry the name to younger users).
Anniversary, special editions for collectors and fans
Signal, Thread for couch survivalists.

I see the Signal and especially the Thread similar to the Perfume Victorinox produces. If that is what it takes to keep the company profitable, why would/should I complain. Expecting a company to only produce stuff for me I find a bit egoistic and I think we have no right to complain as long as they produce the good stuff too.

Also, post #6000

Good point


------------
Dream. Wish. Leave nothing undone. Repeat.

Analysis seems spot on.  I don't really have an issue with their offerings, though I think they would do well to clearly separate the brand offerings.  This would allow them to outsource the low end tools and protect the brand integrity.  ***However, NONE of this matters if they can't get a handle on QC. 
Bad designs (Signal) can be overcome with engineering modifications, but it's all irrelevant if you keep shoving out the door


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun

I agree. We know our multitools pretty well I'd say, and as such we have a distinct collective advantage over the standard tool buying public. Those guys out there who don't have our insights, and who haven't stumbled across the wealth of knowledge here yet, have no real way to discern the good tools from the total lemons!

Firstly, all Leatherman tools should have their ergonomics reviewed and adjusted as required. (along with any other design faux pas)

Sedondly, they need to ensure consistency and quality conformance.

Thirdly, it needs to be clear to the buyer if they are buying a "hobby" level tool, or a premium tool. Yes, the price is an indicator, but someone wanting heavy duty knives and pliers who buys a Rebar, is likely to feel very let down by the knife blades. I don't think the Rebar is to the ST300 what the Wave is to the Surge.

This of course is not taking into account allowing price hikes or implementing further cost reduction stategies etc etc

[AimlessWanderer]

...
Should they offer the best tools available, at significantly higher prices than anywhere else, knowing that this will lose a huge part of sales? Or should they offer cheaper tools to compete, knowing that this means their tools won't be as good as they used to be, buy at least folks might be more prepared to buy them than the "proper" tools at "proper" prices?

Be honest, which way would you prefer them to go? After all, it's your money they're trying to get you to part with

I'll be honest  .

I think over here, we already pay enough for any Leatherman tool to expect a quality tool.  At the local shop, a Leatherman Wave costs 150 Euro ($168), while I bought my Victorinox Spirit in the same store for 94 Euro ($105).  A Leatherman Surge costs 190 Euro ($213) while a Victorinox Swisstool costs 130 Euro ($146).  I mean, how much higher could these prices be before people would stop buying them, I know they are reaching my limits, and I'm a "multitool collector", not somebody who would just like to get one of these multitool thingies because somebody at work had one of those ...

For example, I would really like Leatherman to make a new version of the Wave (or a ST400  ), but if they would sell this "new Wave" at 170 Euro ($190) instead of the 150 Euro ($168) that the current Wave costs, I would probably let it pass ... 

Come to think of it, I already reached my point, because I will not buy any Leatherman at a local dealer anymore.  I used to prefere buying my tools at one of the local shops, and I didn't mind paying a bit more there than I would if I bought online, but these days the price difference is just ridiculous.

I read here that you can find the Leatherman Rev for $20 in the U.S., over here the Rev costs 50 Euro ($56), I wonder if anyone in The States would buy a Rev at that price ... And I know that we have to pay import taxes and stuff like that over here, but at some point, too much is too much if you know what I mean ...

I don't want to be a cheapskate, but life is becoming more and more expensive, and sadly enough my paycheck isn't following this evolution, so at some point a choice will have to be made ...  .

Just my humble opinion, as always ...  .

Good call, Eric 

[SteveC]

Question on pricing, why are Leathermans so expensive over in Europe ? Is it because of LM or Euro taxes / customs tax ?

[AimlessWanderer]

Leatherman price + importers mark up + extra shipping + import duties + retailers mark up + sales tax

Basically lots of stages where an extra lump of percentage gets added on. It's not the manufacturers fault, but they need to be aware of their effective prices elsewhere in the global marketplace to avoid losing a lot of potential overseas sales

[dks]

and strength of the dollar, because they can, gadgets are always more expensive (talked about it in the signal thread)

[Top-Gear-24]

Leatherman price + importers mark up + extra shipping + import duties + retailers mark up + sales tax

Basically lots of stages where an extra lump of percentage gets added on. It's not the manufacturers fault, but they need to be aware of their effective prices elsewhere in the global marketplace to avoid losing a lot of potential overseas sales

That was one of the points I was trying to make, but I needed like 15 lines and about 30 minutes to type it down ... 

 

[comis]

@Lynn
Well said, I am totally agree.

@Etherealicer
Congrats on 6000!

@50ft-trad
Such interesting topic, and clearly it's a delicate question that needs their immediate and long term attention.

I think essentially we are talking about the long term sustainability of LM as a company, and I think they do need to take a closer look at each of their competitors, and to analysis what is LM's competitive advantage over others.

1) Increase quality, regardless of location. 
I can't argue there is benefit to provide jobs and possibly better QC if everything is brought back in US to produce.  But how to offer cheap but great quality pliers-based MT is the ultimate question.

2) Diversify but stay focus
In lieu of LM recent releases, as Kampfer said earlier, they have gone the route of 'specialized' tools.  Maybe this is the way LM like to diversify and explore, but I am just not entirely sure how well it will all pan out in the end.  Victorinox may have too many different names to all their 91mm that one cares to remember, but essentially they are pretty much just building variations on the same platform. 

3) Unique feature
I love the idea of Crunch.  It really is a unique tool that often is neglected and it's a little marvel of engineering.  I would love to see more unique features to be incorporated into product, which will be either irreplaceable or of great utility.  For example, how about a disposable cutter blade instead of serrated blade on wave?

[SteveC]

Leatherman price + importers mark up + extra shipping + import duties + retailers mark up + sales tax

Basically lots of stages where an extra lump of percentage gets added on. It's not the manufacturers fault, but they need to be aware of their effective prices elsewhere in the global marketplace to avoid losing a lot of potential overseas sales

\

It seems to be out of their control then what the prices are that you guy's have to pay.

[dks]

and yet SAKs are not noticeably more expensive in the states.... 

[AimlessWanderer]

and strength of the dollar, because they can, gadgets are always more expensive (talked about it in the signal thread)

 

I didn't list that as it's more of a variable than the numerous "and add a bit on for me" stages, but yes it is a dynamic factor in the equation 

[AimlessWanderer]

Leatherman price + importers mark up + extra shipping + import duties + retailers mark up + sales tax

Basically lots of stages where an extra lump of percentage gets added on. It's not the manufacturers fault, but they need to be aware of their effective prices elsewhere in the global marketplace to avoid losing a lot of potential overseas sales

\

It seems to be out of their control then what the prices are that you guy's have to pay.

It can never be as low as in the US, but having regional importers who may for example slap lets say 30-40% mark up on top of the sum of wholesale cost, shipping and duties (before it enters the local retail infrastructure) is something that Leatherman could minimise by taking direct control of regional activities.

NOTE: I have no idea what actual percentages may apply, but as regional importers have the monopoly of that area, I'd assume the margins and therefore increase of regional sales costs are significant

[SteveC]

Leatherman price + importers mark up + extra shipping + import duties + retailers mark up + sales tax

Basically lots of stages where an extra lump of percentage gets added on. It's not the manufacturers fault, but they need to be aware of their effective prices elsewhere in the global marketplace to avoid losing a lot of potential overseas sales

\

It seems to be out of their control then what the prices are that you guy's have to pay.

It can never be as low as in the US, but having regional importers who may for example slap lets say 30-40% mark up on top of the sum of wholesale cost, shipping and duties (before it enters the local retail infrastructure) is something that Leatherman could minimise by taking direct control of regional activities.

NOTE: I have no idea what actual percentages may apply, but as regional importers have the monopoly of that area, I'd assume the margins and therefore increase of regional sales costs are significant

If that is true I wonder why they wouldn't do that if it's in their best interests sales wise