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Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....

gb Offline pingu

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #60 on: October 04, 2015, 09:13:33 PM

If that is true I wonder why they wouldn't do that if it's in their best interests sales wise ???

Well I buy Photon Lights direct from Photon Light.  Hey isn't that a LM group company?

Sales Tax (VAT here) and Duty is at the buyer's risk and liability not the sellers risk so no great administrative on-cost.   Often not collected on postal packets.  Sure the Photon Lights are small and light :D compared with MTs but that only impacts postage.

I buy Sanrenmu (other brands are available) folders direct from China/Hong Kong.  Similar weight to a MT but usually FOC postage or airmail tracked for a very small ad-on.

LM could do this if there was a will.  They could ask Photon Light how.

Another angle here is that because eBay won't trade items containing blades, or even knifeless MTs  :ahhh, there is no market price to counter excessive mark-up.




« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 09:21:45 PM by pingu »


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #61 on: October 04, 2015, 09:45:39 PM
@50ft-trad
Such interesting topic, and clearly it's a delicate question that needs their immediate and long term attention.

I think essentially we are talking about the long term sustainability of LM as a company, and I think they do need to take a closer look at each of their competitors, and to analysis what is LM's competitive advantage over others.


I think you're right, it's a very delicate question, and there isn't really any right or wrong answers :salute:

I think right at the very heart of the matter, Leatherman need to ask themselves why would the consumer want to buy a Leatherman product instead of one from their competitors. This is kind of the purpose of the thread I suppose, to find out what it is that people need the company to do in order to keep spending money with them. Reputation was what worked for them in the past, but I don't think this is as strong as it once was. For me personally the designs are a bigger obstacle than the quality aspects, in as much as even if the price was right and the quality was right, a great many of the tools don't suit me for various reasons. However, I don't actually want that to be a primary focus for the thread....

We all have different priorities for our tools, and a thread asking how you want them to change their designs would veer off in too many different directions. A thread asking if you'd prefer them to pursue quality or affordability is far more challenging, and makes you think - because what we want as individuals is not what's necessarily best for the company.

We need to consider the sustainability of the company in order for them to be able to give us what we want in the future, and I think it's interesting to hear the consumers perspective of how that balancing act of price vs quality should be played out in order for us to keep sending money their way


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us Offline BASguy

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #62 on: October 04, 2015, 10:31:26 PM
I for one hope they get this figured out.  When they are on their game, they are the best and most innovative in the industry.  The pliers based MT is a must in the mechanical trades industry.  It would be a shame for them to lose what they've built in the last 30+ years


Sent from 9 miles from the face of the sun


00 Offline kirk13

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #63 on: October 05, 2015, 06:23:13 PM
I for one hope they get this figured out.  When they are on their game, they are the best and most innovative in the industry.  The pliers based MT is a must in the mechanical trades industry.  It would be a shame for them to lose what they've built in the last 30+ years


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nl Offline anditsgone

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #64 on: October 05, 2015, 06:37:12 PM
I would like to see better quality in the future and ditch the design flaws and some poorly designed tools.
I agree that the average consumer is not willing to pay a lot of money.
For me multitools are the only thing i dont cut corners on if they are really good.

But on the other hand, victorinox can deliver excellent tools, high quality, extremely well designed, no design flaws, and made in switzerland. This is the only manufactuer i know that can deliver top notch products for almost chinese prices.

I personaly think that leatherman has gone from a non-profit company to a multi milion dollar company that wants to make profit for their ceo's and all their manager loans. which is logical, but loyal customers will only take a certain amount of hits before they also leave their beloved brand. I used to swear by leatherman. but those times are long gone, overall the concept is good for their tools. But the small details ruin it, details that should not be possible from a manufactuer like leatherman.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 06:48:26 PM by anditsgone »


us Offline ducttapetech

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #65 on: October 05, 2015, 07:04:05 PM
and yet SAKs are not noticeably more expensive in the states....  :D
The two layers, not so much. The larger ones, yes. Also, we have NAFTA and GATT.

That's us mobile.
Nate
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 07:07:31 PM by ducttapetech »
Nate

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cy Offline dks

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #66 on: October 05, 2015, 07:13:42 PM
This is the cheapest I can get SAKs.

Starting from the most expensive.
Going back a few pages you will see that the swisstool has a similar price to a LM wave (about 160 euro) and that cybertools are about 100Euro.
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nl Offline anditsgone

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #67 on: October 05, 2015, 07:21:50 PM
This is the cheapest I can get SAKs.

Starting from the most expensive.
Going back a few pages you will see that the swisstool has a similar price to a LM wave (about 160 euro) and that cybertools are about 100Euro.

In the netherlands a swisstool costs 99 euros. the same as a wave. but quality wise you can not compare them.
A sak explorer is so cheap because they have a production line setup for it that makes thousends of perfect tools. If only Victorinox made a Juice like tool.


us Offline anon

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #68 on: October 05, 2015, 09:46:46 PM
Another angle here is that because eBay won't trade items containing blades, or even knifeless MTs  :ahhh, there is no market price to counter excessive mark-up.

Why is that?


gb Offline pingu

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #69 on: October 05, 2015, 09:49:14 PM
Another angle here is that because eBay won't trade items containing blades, or even knifeless MTs  :ahhh, there is no market price to counter excessive mark-up.

Why is that?

Why is what? Sorry don't understand  :think:


us Offline anon

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #70 on: October 05, 2015, 09:54:37 PM
>eBay won't trade items containing blades, or even knifeless MTs


gb Offline pingu

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #71 on: October 05, 2015, 10:00:12 PM
>eBay won't trade items containing blades, or even knifeless MTs

eBay doesn't permit UK purchases of the above from the States.  We get teased with the pricing then get rejected at the shipping stage.  If you are asking why eBay has this policy, no idea.    Possibly a mistaken view on legality. 


wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #72 on: October 05, 2015, 10:01:26 PM
Because everybody in the UK is a stab-happy psychopath. Or that our irresponsible and frankly idiotic tabloid press turned the ability to purchase knives online (instead of, say, walking into a kitchen shop or supermarket) into a political issue and smurfed it up for everyone.


us Offline anon

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #73 on: October 05, 2015, 10:02:07 PM
>eBay won't trade items containing blades, or even knifeless MTs

eBay doesn't permit UK purchases of the above from the States.  We get teased with the pricing then get rejected at the shipping stage.  If you are asking why eBay has this policy, no idea.    Possibly a mistaken view on legality.

That is unfortunate.


gr Offline firiki

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #74 on: October 06, 2015, 03:30:23 PM
Good thread :tu:


There's not much I can add that hasn't already been said. In a few words, I'd like to see LM improve their quality while lowering their prices.


The way things are now I have exactly zero incentive to buy a LM MT; I might very well be paying 1/4th of my salary for a clunky tool that comes with flaws straight from the factory and that isn't all too well designed IMO*. I think that offering good or even great quality at an affordable price is more likely to keep a company afloat rather than cheaping out on everything in every conceivable manner.  :whistle:


The way I see it, proper QC (quality control) should be including every stage of the production process, from designing with cost in mind, to choosing specs and materials to match the needs of the design (rather than making the desing meet the needs of cheap production costs) to making sure everything is being made as it should and that practically nothing leaves the factory with flaws. LEATHERMAN has a lot to learn on how not to waste resources.


I feel they should focus on reality rather than on market analyses that may not be very sound after all... Make a few tools in different sizes, with some variation between them -e.g. bluntnose or needle nose pliers-  to cover most people's needs instead of churning out whatever monstrosity they have available at the moment of making decisions. I'm trying to say that instead of investing in all the hype they have going on for them they should try to deliver pure, self-evident functionality, otherwise the market forces may not be favourable for LM for long.


One last thing, about warranty. It's good to stand behind your product but they should discourage warranty abuse somehow and also do something about older tools; if I send in a Flair I want a Flair back not a Blast.


*Still working on that review of the OHT. Stay tuned  >:D
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 03:34:57 PM by firiki »
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gr Offline firiki

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #75 on: October 06, 2015, 03:38:54 PM
These two posts sum my thoughts up pretty well  :drink:


Firstly, all Leatherman tools should have their ergonomics reviewed and adjusted as required. (along with any other design faux pas)

Sedondly, they need to ensure consistency and quality conformance.

Thirdly, it needs to be clear to the buyer if they are buying a "hobby" level tool, or a premium tool. Yes, the price is an indicator, but someone wanting heavy duty knives and pliers who buys a Rebar, is likely to feel very let down by the knife blades. I don't think the Rebar is to the ST300 what the Wave is to the Surge.

This of course is not taking into account allowing price hikes or implementing further cost reduction stategies etc etc


and yet SAKs are not noticeably more expensive in the states....  :D
Omnia vincit amor. Vae victis.


gr Offline firiki

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #76 on: October 06, 2015, 03:42:13 PM
Also, we have NAFTA and GATT.

That's us mobile.
Nate

Soon to have TTIP in vigor, too :rant:
Omnia vincit amor. Vae victis.


cy Offline dks

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #77 on: October 06, 2015, 03:44:58 PM
This is the cheapest I can get SAKs.

Starting from the most expensive.
Going back a few pages you will see that the swisstool has a similar price to a LM wave (about 160 euro) and that cybertools are about 100Euro.

I left the link out  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

http://www.eshopcy.com.cy/search_main.phtml?offset=360&table=TLS&category=%CC%C9%CA%D1%CF%C5%D1%C3%C1%CB%C5%C9%C1+%CA%CF%D0%C7%D3&filter-9106=1
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nl Offline anditsgone

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #78 on: October 06, 2015, 06:09:10 PM
Good thread :tu:

The way things are now I have exactly zero incentive to buy a LM MT; I might very well be paying 1/4th of my salary for a clunky tool that comes with flaws straight from the factory and that isn't all too well designed IMO*.

Agree, only because it says leatherman they sell, if it said gerber people would say those tools are full with flaws, poorly designed and bad quality.
But because it says leatherman it must be good, it is the holy grail of mt's no matter how bad it is. it will always be better than gerber if it says leatherman. If your'e saying leatherman is poorly designed it is like your'e peeing on the holy grail. :think:

I now have a juice s2, i like the tool package, screw drivers are good but a pain to get out due to stiffness, scissors look great, but had a horrible grind when new. i have spent half an hour to regrind it. The scissors dont pass each other far enough so the last 3mm of the cutting part doesn't cut paper.  Like the sheepsfoot blade and its semi polished look but when it was new it had a dent in the cutting part, probably happend at the factory.
The springs that keep the pliers open work great and are much better than the regular friction used on the wave, but..... the leatherman designers forgot to add a small notch to the other side of the pliers so the springs also keep the tool closed in my pocket. now it has 1cm of free play to open. such a small detail can make a huge difference. This will bother me for the 25 years i will have this tool.

Why do i see this as an average man and did the expert designers at leatherman miss this detail?

Is it hard to add a notch to keep the tool closed? No, they only have to add an small bump in the casting mold.
Does that cost a lot of money? No it only uses about 1 gram extra on material which will probably cost leatherman about 0,0001 dollar a tool.

I advise leatherman to buy a swisstool and copy their design. The only reason i dont edc a Swiss mt is because victorinox refuses to make a juice style tool.
Two saks with a plier in between.

Some times i think i should start my own mt company. But it is not as easy as it looks.


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #79 on: October 06, 2015, 06:35:36 PM
I feel they should focus on reality rather than on market analyses that may not be very sound after all... Make a few tools in different sizes, with some variation between them -e.g. bluntnose or needle nose pliers-  to cover most people's needs instead of churning out whatever monstrosity they have available at the moment of making decisions. I'm trying to say that instead of investing in all the hype they have going on for them they should try to deliver pure, self-evident functionality, otherwise the market forces may not be favourable for LM for long.

I was going to save this while later in the discussion, but now might actually be a relevant time.....

Another thing I would like to see from them, is replications of the tool in different sizes and price brackets. For example...

A) a 4.1/2" Surge
B) a 4" Surge ***
C) a low budget Surge alternative
D) as above for ST300, MUT, OHT.....

*** but with tools as robust as the larger one, not wimped out like they did when they scaled down the ST300 for the Rebar

I don't buy into the arguement that the 4.1/2" tools should be considered heavier duty than the 4" tools. It's nonsense, and I referred to this in my handle ergos thread. I can achieve more with a Wave than I could with a Surge, because it suits my hands better. I can get more gripping or wire cutting force with a Wave, I can saw more efficiently, and so on, and so on. If I wear a size 9 shoe, I shouldn't have to buy a pair of size 11s if I want them to be hard wearing.  :twak: People with average or below sized hands, often still have real work to do too.  ::)

As for the budget offering, if people need a Surge type tool set why not offer them something entry level to get them intrigued and saving up for a "real one". It seems bizarre to me that they don't offer the same tool sets when they have a large and small version of very similar tools


The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #80 on: October 06, 2015, 06:44:54 PM
@ anditsgone,

I feel very similar about the Juice. On paper it is a fantastic Urban EDC for those people who don't need heavier duty tools, however in practice, the execution of those tools is pathetic. I've had issues with scissors, issues with saw, issues with the drivers, issues with the awl, issues with the combo bottle opener thingummy .... often several avoidable issues on one tool. All for high prices, even when compared to other tools made in the same factory.

If they'd spent more time betting this right from the start, they could have severely displaced SAKs in the market place, but all they did was make SAKs look even better


The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad


cy Offline dks

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #81 on: October 06, 2015, 06:50:57 PM
..at least you learned from your 1st juice experience and never bought another one again   :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute:
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us Offline rishardh

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #82 on: October 06, 2015, 07:03:37 PM
Another thing I would like to see from them, is replications of the tool in different sizes and price brackets. For example...

A) a 4.1/2" Surge
B) a 4" Surge ***
C) a low budget Surge alternative


A surge in 3 sizes, that will be awesome.

A) Surge Talla Larga aka Mega Surge(4.5")
B) Surge Talla Mediana aka Mini Surge(4")
C) Surge Talla Pequeña aka Surge Buddy(3.3")

The Mini Surge could be their Wave3 and the Surge Buddy could be a Wingman/Sidekick combo  :gimme:




gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #83 on: October 06, 2015, 07:06:28 PM
..at least you learned from your 1st juice experience and never bought another one again   :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute:


Me?

In total I have owned six  :facepalm:

Of those six, I still currently own three.

Of those three, I have carried two.

They do work, just not as well as they could/should, and it's those little irritations that mean I'm more likely to pocket a Sideclip and a SAK, or a Balance, or a knifeless mod, or a .....


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cy Offline dks

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #84 on: October 06, 2015, 07:09:42 PM
...at least you never bought a juice model you did not like again...   :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute:
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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #85 on: October 06, 2015, 07:13:36 PM
Yeah, well.... actually..... about that....  :whistle:


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cy Offline dks

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #86 on: October 06, 2015, 07:15:58 PM
 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Leatherman Past, Present, and Future....
Reply #87 on: October 06, 2015, 07:34:00 PM
I bought a CS4 and thought it was horrendous

I gifted it to my brother, and he loves it

I bought a used XE6 and it was better

I bought a NIB KF4 ... and it stayed in the box

I sold the XE6

I bought a "user" KF4 and sold the NIB one

I bought a replacement CS4 as I became the original was a fluke, and sure enough the new one wasn't quite as dreadful as the first one

I never really used the user KF4, but regretted selling the XE6, and so bought another

I have carried both the XE6 and CS4 occasionally, and considering selling one or both, but probably not selling the user KF4 that I don't use, with the intention of using it ....

I should probably use the proceeds of any sale towards some form of psychological evaluation, before I spend them on something I'm going to put in a drawer and moan about.....

.... at least I can't be accuse about not being prepared to give them a chance  :P
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 07:37:00 PM by 50ft-trad »


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