Are SWIZA knives SAKs?

[Grathr]

I have been thinking a bit about this. Are SWIZA knives SAKs?
It looks like one, its Swiss made, but it has no connection with the swiss army. The counter argument would be that neither does most of the Vic models. If I have understood it right,(feel free to correct me)  only the Soldier/standard issue knives has been issued to the Swiss Army. So all the other models are really not Swiss "Army" Knives.
I know there might be some emotions regarding this issue, so please keep the discussion civilised and friendly

Oh! And dont forget to vote in the poll

[shark_za]

They are SKs not SAKs

[dks]

I just posted a similar poll.... 

I did not see yours..

[Smashie]

They are SKs not SAKs

I would agree, they don't have the 'Army' heritage

[AimlessWanderer]

The Swiza knives are multipurpose knives which happen to be made in Switzerland. They haven't supplied knives to the Swiss Army, and so cannot claim the honour of being producers of Swiss Army Knives.

However, whilst Victorinox can claim that honour, many of the knives they have produced are not SAKs, even though we call them that. So we have actual Swiss Army Knives, knives made by makers of Swiss Army Knives, and then we have other Swiss knife makers who haven't yet made anything for the Swiss or maybe any other army.

Swiza Should in my mind be collated with the multipurpose knives made in Solingen or elsewhere. The Boker Plus Tech Tools would be another example. Oh, and I don't consider them "sak-alikes" either. Multipurpose pocket knives have been around for centuries, way before the internet bourne misconception that SAKs are where it all started

[Grathr]

They are SKs not SAKs

I would agree, they don't have the 'Army' heritage

So to be able to call it Swiss Army Knives they must first supply the swiss army with a batch of knives?

[Grathr]

The Swiza knives are multipurpose knives which happen to be made in Switzerland. They haven't supplied knives to the Swiss Army, and so cannot claim the honour of being producers of Swiss Army Knives.

However, whilst Victorinox can claim that honour, many of the knives they have produced are not SAKs, even though we call them that. So we have actual Swiss Army Knives, knives made by makers of Swiss Army Knives, and then we have other Swiss knife makers who haven't yet made anything for the Swiss or maybe any other army.

Swiza Should in my mind be collated with the multipurpose knives made in Solingen or elsewhere. The Boker Plus Tech Tools would be another example. Oh, and I don't consider them "sak-alikes" either. Multipurpose pocket knives have been around for centuries, way before the internet bourne misconception that SAKs are where it all started

You have a point there. I have been a little unsure of where to post threads about the Boker, Sanrenmu and other multipurpose pocket knives (MPK's ?) they are not exactly cheap and cheerful either.
Maybe there should be a separate subforum for multipurpose pocket knives where Swiza belongs?

[Smashie]

They are SKs not SAKs

I would agree, they don't have the 'Army' heritage

So to be able to call it Swiss Army Knives they must first supply the swiss army with a batch of knives?

I would say so, although that is not the origin of the name iirc

[Smashie]

The Swiza knives are multipurpose knives which happen to be made in Switzerland. They haven't supplied knives to the Swiss Army, and so cannot claim the honour of being producers of Swiss Army Knives.

However, whilst Victorinox can claim that honour, many of the knives they have produced are not SAKs, even though we call them that. So we have actual Swiss Army Knives, knives made by makers of Swiss Army Knives, and then we have other Swiss knife makers who haven't yet made anything for the Swiss or maybe any other army.

Swiza Should in my mind be collated with the multipurpose knives made in Solingen or elsewhere. The Boker Plus Tech Tools would be another example. Oh, and I don't consider them "sak-alikes" either. Multipurpose pocket knives have been around for centuries, way before the internet bourne misconception that SAKs are where it all started

What Al said 

[styx]

I agree with Al. I see them more like the Case Scout (and other similar knives)

[dks]

the cross, in red, the country of origin, the makers, the corkscrew, the tweezers, they all hint/point/show that it is closer to a SAK, than to  a scout knife

[SAK Guy]

The Swiza knives are multipurpose knives which happen to be made in Switzerland. They haven't supplied knives to the Swiss Army, and so cannot claim the honour of being producers of Swiss Army Knives.

However, whilst Victorinox can claim that honour, many of the knives they have produced are not SAKs, even though we call them that. So we have actual Swiss Army Knives, knives made by makers of Swiss Army Knives, and then we have other Swiss knife makers who haven't yet made anything for the Swiss or maybe any other army.

Swiza Should in my mind be collated with the multipurpose knives made in Solingen or elsewhere. The Boker Plus Tech Tools would be another example. Oh, and I don't consider them "sak-alikes" either. Multipurpose pocket knives have been around for centuries, way before the internet bourne misconception that SAKs are where it all started

What Al said 

+100!!!!

[AimlessWanderer]

I agree with Al. I see them more like the Case Scout (and other similar knives)

Another good example 

the cross, in red, the country of origin, the makers, the corkscrew, the tweezers, they all hint/point/show that it is closer to a SAK, than to  a scout knife

I'm not sure I can agree with that. Similarities in geography and styling don't make it into something it's not, even if some of the people there started their cutlery career under the SAK banner. It's obviously more Swiss than a Solingen knife, or the Nontron multipurpose knife, or a Sheffield knife, but it's no more a Swiss ARMY knife.

Several companies can claim to be GAK or DAK makers, but as of this moments, there's only only company can claim to make SAK. If we don't make this distinction, do we start calling all multipurpose knives from Solingen GAKs? No, of course we don't. It's just another knife based multitool maker that has to stand or fall on it's own merits/products.

Maybe there should be a separate subforum for multipurpose pocket knives where Swiza belongs?

Maybe that's long overdue, and maybe we should be putting the Buck X-Tracts, Kershaw Select Fire and other stuff in there too 

[cody6268]

If your'e a stickler, the only real Swiss Army Knives (those actually issued to the Swiss Army) only number less than a dozen--Model 2008, Model 1961, Model 1891, etc. But to me, a Swiss Army Knife is only made by Victorinox and Wenger, since they were the makers of the knives actually issued to the Swiss Army.

So, no.  To me, the Swiza is a an attempt to fix what isn't broken by former Wenger employees. 

[Etherealicer]

I think Swiss Army Knife is an idea / a mystical power promoted by Victorinox and a bit of help by MacGyver. And I think it takes more than delivering a couple of knifes to the Swiss Army.

Its more like a Nobel price... before you get the honor you have to proof that your work can stand in time.

As for the forum, it sorta makes sense to put it in the Swiss Army Knights Forum, they are Swiss and by design similar to the offerings from Victorinox, I even think the Böker City Tool is right here... after all we give out Swiss Army Knights title to people who are neither Swiss nor have served in the Swiss military

Personally, I'd call it SACK-messer anyway (means pocket-knife, got that confused in the beginning).

[Etherealicer]

If your'e a stickler, the only real Swiss Army Knives (those actually issued to the Swiss Army) only number less than a dozen--Model 2008, Model 1961, Model 1891, etc. But to me, a Swiss Army Knife is only made by Victorinox and Wenger, since they were the makers of the knives actually issued to the Swiss Army.

So, no.  To me, the Swiza is a an attempt to fix what isn't broken by former Wenger employees.

Technically we could even go further:

Victorinox  - Original Swiss Army Knife
while
Wenger - Genuine Swiss Army Knife

these are legally protected terms

[SAK Guy]

If your'e a stickler, the only real Swiss Army Knives (those actually issued to the Swiss Army) only number less than a dozen--Model 2008, Model 1961, Model 1891, etc. But to me, a Swiss Army Knife is only made by Victorinox and Wenger, since they were the makers of the knives actually issued to the Swiss Army.

So, no.  To me, the Swiza is a an attempt to fix what isn't broken by former Wenger employees.

Technically we could even go further:

Victorinox  - Original Swiss Army Knife
while
Wenger - Genuine Swiss Army Knife

these are legally protected terms

So could one go further......

Swiza - Wannabe Swiss Army Knife

 

[WWW]

Don't get me wrong, I hope I don't sound too rude or stupid, but I don't really care. They look like an nice option and as pointed above they're very close to a vic (some are going  with this statement). For the sake of finding swiss things on the swiss forum keep it simple and don't overthink. Apologize in advance in case I offended someone or something, blah blah blah...

[dks]

I showed one to someone involved for decades with SAKs, who even knew swiza from their other products and he said it looked pretty good.

[Alan K.]

I've always interpreted "Swiss army knife" as referring to the generic type, or classification.

If I entered "Swiss army knife" into a search engine it's going to take me to information about Victorinox, and Karl or Carl Elsener.  Actual issued knives will barely be mentioned.

If I needed to find information about an actual, military issued, model of Swiss army knife I would look up "knives issued to the Swiss Army," or something like that.

The word, "issued" makes a difference in the search parameters, so it should also make a difference in whats in your pocket.  Or, you could just say that I have OCD and leave it at that.

[Corwyn]

Personally, I'd call it SACK-messer anyway

True. SUCK-messer is a perfectly suitable name. 

[comis]

The Swiza knives are multipurpose knives which happen to be made in Switzerland. They haven't supplied knives to the Swiss Army, and so cannot claim the honour of being producers of Swiss Army Knives.

However, whilst Victorinox can claim that honour, many of the knives they have produced are not SAKs, even though we call them that. So we have actual Swiss Army Knives, knives made by makers of Swiss Army Knives, and then we have other Swiss knife makers who haven't yet made anything for the Swiss or maybe any other army.

Swiza Should in my mind be collated with the multipurpose knives made in Solingen or elsewhere. The Boker Plus Tech Tools would be another example. Oh, and I don't consider them "sak-alikes" either. Multipurpose pocket knives have been around for centuries, way before the internet bourne misconception that SAKs are where it all started

What Al said 

+100!!!!

+1 

IRC, the name "SAK" was termed by US soldiers referring to Victorinox products made for Swiss Army back in the war time, before the brand name Victorinox was used.  So one way or another, I associated this term 'SAK' more like a brand name, than a genre.

Meanwhile, it probably is unfair to call every other knife-based MT as a SAK wanna-be(though it is the holy grail, due to their unparalleled knife/MT market domination).  In fact, I love to see more variation and innovation from other brands, so we'll get to see more interesting products than just mere reiteration of the same product.

[kkokkolis]

I agree with Grant.

What? He didn't say his opinion yet? Never mind, whatever he will say, I'll agree.

[Grass]

So I'm thinking this is already sorted with the technical perspective of a multitool with a knife supplied to the swiss army but...

If you have a soldier model, how much can it change and still be a sak? Can a Pioneer, essentially the old soldier, still be the sak? Can my One Handed Trekker, a 2008 Soldier without the serration and with different scales, be a sak?

"Go home Grass."

[twiliter]

My definition of Swiss Army Knife does not include anything not made by either Victorinox or Wenger and their historical predecessors, so my vote is no. fwiw

[SAK Guy]

So I'm thinking this is already sorted with the technical perspective of a multitool with a knife supplied to the swiss army but...

If you have a soldier model, how much can it change and still be a sak? Can a Pioneer, essentially the old soldier, still be the sak? Can my One Handed Trekker, a 2008 Soldier without the serration and with different scales, be a sak?

"Go home Grass."

Think of it as a family....

I still carry my grandfather's name and although I'm very different from him in every aspect, that name, history and experience still qualifies me for a place in the family. It's up to me if I live up to my family's expectations.

 

[dks]

So, if your surname was "butcher" or "major" what would that require.   

[twiliter]

Also, I don't call knockoffs Swiss Army Knives, no matter where they come from, just like I don't call my Spirit a Leatherman. A matter of definition. 

[kirk13]

For the record,no I don't think SWIZAs are SAKs.

But,by definition,neither is the 108mm Victorinox built to German spec for the German army,yet it is covered by our Swiss sub forum,and has its honoured place in the sakwiki.

By the same logical progression,Delemonts can't really claim to be SAKs either,except that they're made by Victorinox

[dks]

well, we all know who is to blame for Wengers downfall .....