Total Members Voted: 55
[...]but I never say insults to anybody or other things like that.
Let's return to a more constructive discussion.Being a SAK is like a title of honor, an Olympic Gold medal. Not every athlete automatically gets that Olympic Gold medal, he needs to earn it or else the title is without value.To me Swiza is like a new athlete, still trying to qualify for the Olympics after all its very new and we have very few reviews on it, it is also still in a very basic form (no saw, no scissors etc.). So, first it has to proof it is good enough for the Olympics and then it takes years of hard work to win that gold.Anyway, that is how I feel.
Quote from: Etherealicer on December 04, 2015, 10:31:56 PMLet's return to a more constructive discussion.Being a SAK is like a title of honor, an Olympic Gold medal. Not every athlete automatically gets that Olympic Gold medal, he needs to earn it or else the title is without value.To me Swiza is like a new athlete, still trying to qualify for the Olympics after all its very new and we have very few reviews on it, it is also still in a very basic form (no saw, no scissors etc.). So, first it has to proof it is good enough for the Olympics and then it takes years of hard work to win that gold.Anyway, that is how I feel.Being a SAK is being... Victorinox ? What a big choice !!!Oh sorry I think it's also an insult ?
The REAL BIG dilemma will come if the Swiss Army places an order for some knives that are made outside of Switzerland! All bets will be off then
Quote from: 50ft-trad on December 04, 2015, 10:41:19 PMThe REAL BIG dilemma will come if the Swiss Army places an order for some knives that are made outside of Switzerland! All bets will be off then As the Swiss law has changed, now Swiss Army could order knives outside of Switzerland.Even it's not probable, it's could be possible...In this case the argument " the title of SAK is reserved for the manufacturer who makes knives for the army " will not be valid any more...
Switzerland has a new knife! The legendary Swiss Knife has been given a redesign for the first time in decades.
In August 2002, Victorinox acquired the American company Swiss Army Brands, Inc (SABI), to unify and gain control of the Victorinox and Swiss Army watch brands. Previously Swiss Army Brands, Inc (SABI) had sold the Swiss Army branded watch in North America and under license had sold the Victorinox branded watch outside North America. But after Victorinox AG acquired Swiss Army Brands, Inc (SABI), a combined Victorinox Swiss Army brand was created and has been marketed worldwide....Victorinox has licensed the Swiss Army brand and shield logo to companies producing watches, writing tools, luggage and clothing.
Quote from: jcfiguet on December 04, 2015, 10:37:34 PMQuote from: Etherealicer on December 04, 2015, 10:31:56 PMLet's return to a more constructive discussion.Being a SAK is like a title of honor, an Olympic Gold medal. Not every athlete automatically gets that Olympic Gold medal, he needs to earn it or else the title is without value.To me Swiza is like a new athlete, still trying to qualify for the Olympics after all its very new and we have very few reviews on it, it is also still in a very basic form (no saw, no scissors etc.). So, first it has to proof it is good enough for the Olympics and then it takes years of hard work to win that gold.Anyway, that is how I feel.Being a SAK is being... Victorinox ? What a big choice !!!Oh sorry I think it's also an insult ?Yes, mostly Victorinox. They put a lot of work into that reputation. Swiss Army Knifes are known and liked in the whole world. Also Wenger.Böker makes great pocket multi function knives with the City Tool line, but I would not consider them SAK. Böker is probably OK with that, they probably want to stay on their own feet, build something on their own.
Quote from: jcfiguet on December 04, 2015, 10:50:40 PMQuote from: 50ft-trad on December 04, 2015, 10:41:19 PMThe REAL BIG dilemma will come if the Swiss Army places an order for some knives that are made outside of Switzerland! All bets will be off then As the Swiss law has changed, now Swiss Army could order knives outside of Switzerland.Even it's not probable, it's could be possible...In this case the argument " the title of SAK is reserved for the manufacturer who makes knives for the army " will not be valid any more...The ties of Switzerland with European Union require that all large purchase are open to international competition. That is one of the reasons the Swiss Army now has a large, locking OHO knife, as this is considered a weapon and therefore not subjected to the rule above (weapon deals can always be restricted to national companies).But essentially yes, the Swiss Army has the right to purchase knifes from any company in the world.
When making a translation, translators can be faced with the dilemma of having to choose between using the correct term/syntaxis instead of what is being (wrongly) used by the native speakers of the language in which they are translating. Writting down what is lexically, grammatically or syntactically correct could be seen as wrong!I gather that in the USA the name Leatherman has come to mean a pliers-based multitool in general. Does this mean every pliers-based multitool is a Leatherman? No. So why should Swiza knives be considered SAKs?In any case, on their website http://www.swiza.com/en/Brand/News/Press-Center/A-legend-reborn-SWIZA-reinvents-the-Swiss-Knife.html they speak of "Swiss knife" not Swiss army knifeQuoteSwitzerland has a new knife! The legendary Swiss Knife has been given a redesign for the first time in decades.I guess people at Swiza don't see their product as a SAK after all. Maybe they forgot to put the word "army" in their bulletin? Edit: Corrected some errors.
Victorinox owns the license on "Swiss Army" branded goods in general, not just "Swiss Army Knife". (In fact, if I remember correctly, this is quite controversial. Basically a transfer of public brand name to a private company.) Anyways, I think if Swiza said "Swiss Army", they'd be in legal trouble in the USA and EU.Edit: From WikipediaQuoteIn August 2002, Victorinox acquired the American company Swiss Army Brands, Inc (SABI), to unify and gain control of the Victorinox and Swiss Army watch brands. Previously Swiss Army Brands, Inc (SABI) had sold the Swiss Army branded watch in North America and under license had sold the Victorinox branded watch outside North America. But after Victorinox AG acquired Swiss Army Brands, Inc (SABI), a combined Victorinox Swiss Army brand was created and has been marketed worldwide....Victorinox has licensed the Swiss Army brand and shield logo to companies producing watches, writing tools, luggage and clothing.The Swiss Defense Ministry has given Victorinox permission to brand products as "Swiss Army". Swiza has no such concession.
Jean Claude, please receive these comments with the respect I send them with 1) you say we are closed minded, but you seem to struggle that people think differently, and cannot accept their views as their (harmless) opinions.2) I think the big issue here with people, is not the fact that you classify SAKs differently to most of us, but that you wish to "correct" us. There is no official classification, just popular belief and hearsay. If you had just said "I consider the Swiza knives as SAKs, but I understand if others don't", none of this upset would have happened.3) The thread got locked, and this thread deteriorated, when you started accusing people of being like historical figures you consider to be atrocious monsters, because of their views on A POCKET KNIFE!!!It is important that you realise that others have had opinions and have been prepared to accept yours UNTIL you got offensive with them (or at least appeared to). Can we accept that we have different opinions and move on? If not, then it is not "us" that are being closed minded. Again, very importantly, I mean no offense by these comments, I just wish for us to stop looking at our differences and instead to focus on what matters......... embracing the diversity of our needs and carries, blaming Kirky, and establishing that the LM Signal is poo! We are still awaiting third-party verification on the last item, but a Kiwi will hopefully be verifying that for us very soon. OK, he's not technically third party, but he is foreign and very strange, which is the best we could manage under the circumstances
You're right, "Swiss Army" was quite controversial for Victorinox, but now I think disputes are gone. "Swiss Army" was never used by Wenger, I think because it's a commercial brand with something like a patent but without real link with the army of Switzerland... If I remember it was the subject of a dispute with other cutlers and supplier of the Swiss Army. It's an old and vague story...I'm not sure that now the Swiss Defense Ministry has given Victorinox permission to brand products as "Swiss Army". I would like to see the official documents ! But I'm sure Swiza has no concession for "Swiss Army" !The same confusion exists with "Officier Suisse" stamped on civilian knives of Victorinox. Everybody knows this knives were never made for Swiss officiers in the Swiss Army !Do not forget that, for a long time, Victorinox profited from the benevolence of the army and the government which probably wanted to protect a famous Swiss brand. It explains probably the use of terms as "Swiss Army" or "Officier Suisse" without real rights...
Technically, the Swiza knife is not a Swiss Army knife. The term “Swiss Army” is a registered trademark owned by Victorinox AG and its subsidiary, Wenger SA.
Victorinox Intellectual PropertyVictorinox or its licensors are the exclusive owners of all designs, products, information and all copyrights, trademarks and other intellectual property or proprietary rights contained on or used in connection with the Website. Except as set forth herein or authorized by Victorinox, you agree not to copy, distribute, modify or make derivative works of any materials without the prior written consent of the owner of such materials or a legal right to do so. The Victorinox Cross & Shield, Victorinox® and Swiss Army® are separate trademarks owned and registered by Victorinox AG, Ibach, Switzerland and its related companies. All rights not granted under these Terms of Use are reserved by Victorinox.
A broader diversification began in earnest after Forschner registered the Swiss Army name as a trademark in the 1980s....The granting of the trademark provoked some public questioning since the Swiss Military Department did not require royalty payments in return. It did stipulate, however, that such products be made in Switzerland and be of "exceptional quality." In 1996, Forschner, then known as Swiss Army Brands, did agree to pay royalties, however.
Switzerland has a new knife! The legendary Swiss Knife has been given a redesign for the first time in decades. The result is a unique creation manufactured and assembled in the Jura, restoring the status of the local cutlery industry. It is unveiled today as a world exclusive in Lausanne and Zurich by SWIZA, a brand with a history spanning over 110 years and an established reputation in watchmaking circles.
Quote from: jcfiguet on December 05, 2015, 12:11:30 AMYou're right, "Swiss Army" was quite controversial for Victorinox, but now I think disputes are gone. "Swiss Army" was never used by Wenger, I think because it's a commercial brand with something like a patent but without real link with the army of Switzerland... If I remember it was the subject of a dispute with other cutlers and supplier of the Swiss Army. It's an old and vague story...I'm not sure that now the Swiss Defense Ministry has given Victorinox permission to brand products as "Swiss Army". I would like to see the official documents ! But I'm sure Swiza has no concession for "Swiss Army" !The same confusion exists with "Officier Suisse" stamped on civilian knives of Victorinox. Everybody knows this knives were never made for Swiss officiers in the Swiss Army !Do not forget that, for a long time, Victorinox profited from the benevolence of the army and the government which probably wanted to protect a famous Swiss brand. It explains probably the use of terms as "Swiss Army" or "Officier Suisse" without real rights...Wenger absolutely used the Swiss Army brand. Remember, Wenger was the "Genuine Swiss Army Knife", and Victorinox was the "Original Swiss Army Knife". This was the agreement the firms came to. No other knife could be marketed as a Swiss Army Knife. Also, of course Wenger has a link to the Swiss Army. They and Victorinox both supplied the Swiss Army with regulation Swiss Army knives.As for Victorinox owning Swiss Army,
Quote from: Le NewsTechnically, the Swiza knife is not a Swiss Army knife. The term “Swiss Army” is a registered trademark owned by Victorinox AG and its subsidiary, Wenger SA.Swiss Army is a registered trademark of Victorinox:Quote from: VictorinoxVictorinox Intellectual PropertyVictorinox or its licensors are the exclusive owners of all designs, products, information and all copyrights, trademarks and other intellectual property or proprietary rights contained on or used in connection with the Website. Except as set forth herein or authorized by Victorinox, you agree not to copy, distribute, modify or make derivative works of any materials without the prior written consent of the owner of such materials or a legal right to do so. The Victorinox Cross & Shield, Victorinox® and Swiss Army® are separate trademarks owned and registered by Victorinox AG, Ibach, Switzerland and its related companies. All rights not granted under these Terms of Use are reserved by Victorinox.Quote from: Encyclopedia.comA broader diversification began in earnest after Forschner registered the Swiss Army name as a trademark in the 1980s....The granting of the trademark provoked some public questioning since the Swiss Military Department did not require royalty payments in return. It did stipulate, however, that such products be made in Switzerland and be of "exceptional quality." In 1996, Forschner, then known as Swiss Army Brands, did agree to pay royalties, however.So in a precise sense, Swiza knives just aren't Swiss Army knives. Now you can disagree that the legal/trademark definition of Swiss Army Knife (according to European and US Law) is bad one, but it is still a reasonable definition.--
I think the Swiza's look nice, though some early reviews looked troubling. I want to get one when the prices drop in the second hand market. But I think some of the opposition comes from a degree of chutzpah in their advertising. QuoteSwitzerland has a new knife! The legendary Swiss Knife has been given a redesign for the first time in decades. The result is a unique creation manufactured and assembled in the Jura, restoring the status of the local cutlery industry. It is unveiled today as a world exclusive in Lausanne and Zurich by SWIZA, a brand with a history spanning over 110 years and an established reputation in watchmaking circles.Restoring the status of the local cutlery industry? I thought the Victorinox Delemont collection is still made in Jura? What, are those knives chopped liver? "Reinventing" the legendary Swiss Knife? That is a tall claim. I wish Swiza the best of luck and look forward to their future offerings. But I just think the digs at Victorinox are kind of classless.
"Swiss Army knives" is the generic term since 1944 given by American GIs to all folding knives made in Switzerland. This name of "Swiss Army knives" is not an exact definition but it's the name used, as generic term, by all english speaking people in the world, without references to trademarks or law.
Quote from: jcfiguet"Swiss Army knives" is the generic term since 1944 given by American GIs to all folding knives made in Switzerland. This name of "Swiss Army knives" is not an exact definition but it's the name used, as generic term, by all english speaking people in the world, without references to trademarks or law.If you ask 99% of Americans if this is a Swiss Army Knife, they will say yes. No one here would consider it a Swiss Army Knife. If we are using the commonly held definition of Swiss Army Knife used by most people, there is no requirement that it be made in Switzerland. To the vast majority of people, any folding knife in the Victorinox "style" is a Swiss Army Knife.(Image removed from quote.)
Quote from: NetsNJ on December 05, 2015, 03:46:17 AMQuote from: jcfiguet"Swiss Army knives" is the generic term since 1944 given by American GIs to all folding knives made in Switzerland. This name of "Swiss Army knives" is not an exact definition but it's the name used, as generic term, by all english speaking people in the world, without references to trademarks or law.If you ask 99% of Americans if this is a Swiss Army Knife, they will say yes. No one here would consider it a Swiss Army Knife. If we are using the commonly held definition of Swiss Army Knife used by most people, there is no requirement that it be made in Switzerland. To the vast majority of people, any folding knife in the Victorinox "style" is a Swiss Army Knife.(Image removed from quote.)Is it a SAK or a SK ? LOL !!!
The "title" of SAK is not a like the title of "Champion of the World", with only 1 champion for 1 year, with new competition and generally a new champion every years... So SAK is not a title.If the word SAK is reserved only for Victorinox, so we don't need to keek this word, all knives made in Switzerland could to become simply Swiss Knives.And Victorinox ? Victorinox stay the bigest and historical manufacturer of Swiss knives.Why a special name like SAK or like a title only for 1 manufacturer of knives ? In that case, the value of a special name like SAK is no longer justified.
Who cares...??
Your English is much better than my French, although I think you may still be misunderstanding some of the context, even though you understand all the words. Saying that a knife is not SAK does not belittle of mean anything bad to the brand. Swiza have yet to establish themselves and win the hearts of many, but that does not mean they are being prejudiced. Give them time to develop, and give the people time to accept them. [...]Do not be upset that we all think differently. That is why this forum is so good, not why it is bad. To be heard, first you must listen. The fact that we think differently, makes us all wiser. Embrace the differences, do not fight them. Yes, some threads will get very emotive. That is only because people care, not because people hate. Even when people do hate (or seem to hate) it is because they care about something else. The truth is not always on the surface.
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