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Questions about SAK history

ReamerPunch · 8 · 1660
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au Offline ReamerPunch

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Questions about SAK history
on: April 24, 2016, 12:48:22 PM
In 1891 Karl Elsener won the contract to manufacture SAKs in Switzerland.
Up until then, they were manufactured in Germany.

1. What happened to the original German manufacturer? Why is Victorinox contracted to make GAKs now? Is the German manufacturer Solingen? They've got some multi-function knives on ebay.

2. About the Swiss contract. Which companies participated? Do any companies make knives now?
I've seen Amefa and Fosco knives on ebay, how did they make knives? Victorinox had the monopoly.  :think:

3. Swiza makes SAKs now. Did the SAK patent expire? Victorinox owns the "Swiss Army" trademark. Why is Swiza allowed to make SAKs? Can anyone make SAKs now? (or just "Army Knives", like Boker did).
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 12:51:55 PM by ReamerPunch »
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us Offline SAK Guy

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Re: Questions about SAK history
Reply #1 on: April 24, 2016, 03:55:39 PM
#3- Swiza makes "Swiss Knives" not "Swiss ARMY Knives." They have never had a military contract.  The comparison to SAKs in their advertising is just marketing.
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au Offline ReamerPunch

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Re: Questions about SAK history
Reply #2 on: April 24, 2016, 04:01:03 PM
Quote from: SAK Guy on April 24, 2016, 03:55:39 PM
#3- Swiza makes "Swiss Knives" not "Swiss ARMY Knives." They have never had a military contract.  The comparison to SAKs in their advertising is just marketing.

So, as long as you don't call it a SAK, then it's okay?
That's not fair.  :think:
Doesn't Victorinox have a patent on the design? Or is it just the name?
Merit Badges Participate in a Challenge thread and post a photo of a tool made in a specific country for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in the Challenge thread and post a photo of a Flashlight for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge, carry a fire-starting item and post a picture daily  (in use if possible) for 30 days. Lighters, matches, ferro rods, fire pistons, Signal, candles, sparkers, tinder, stoves, bowdrill sets. Carry an orange item and post a picture of it everyday for 30 days.  Carry tools with single functions only. No multi-tools, no multi-layer Swiss Army Knives, no combo one-piece tools and post a photo for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread and post a photo of a SAK-alike, aka multi-layered, knife-based pocket tools for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread and post a photo of  a Bladeless Multitool for 30 days For each of the 30 days, or for as many as you are able to, post a picture of: Progress- Meals- Activities- Gear and participate in the thread and encourage each other. Participate and contribute in Challenge thread and post a photo of either an Axe, MT/Folding knife or Fixed blade (picked at the beginning of challenge) for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread, carry at least one black edc item, and post a photo every day for 30 consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread, carry at least one red edc item, and post a photo every day for 30 consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread, carry at least one green edc item, and post a photo every day for 30 consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread, carry a SAK, duct tape, and paperclip, and post a photo every day for 30 consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread, carry a ratcheting tool, and post a photo every day for 30 consecutive days. ? Create and post MTO-oriented and tool-based memes in the main meme thread. Participate in a Challenge thread, carry a modular tool, and post a photo every day for 30 consecutive days. Find him!

us Offline SAK Guy

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Re: Questions about SAK history
Reply #3 on: April 24, 2016, 05:42:38 PM
Quote from: ReamerPunch on April 24, 2016, 04:01:03 PM
Quote from: SAK Guy on April 24, 2016, 03:55:39 PM
#3- Swiza makes "Swiss Knives" not "Swiss ARMY Knives." They have never had a military contract.  The comparison to SAKs in their advertising is just marketing.

So, as long as you don't call it a SAK, then it's okay?
That's not fair.  :think:
Doesn't Victorinox have a patent on the design? Or is it just the name?

Vic has patents on the name and their designs. Swiza doesn't infringe on either....their only ties to Vic/Wenger are the president used to head Wenger, they are made in Switzerland, they have multiple tools/blades and they billed themselves as the new improved evolution of the SAK. People call them SAKs out of convention, convenience and marketing.

This has been hashed out over many pages here on the forum....search Swiza to find reviews, evaluations and arguments.    :cheers:
- Robert




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"It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues." - Ten Bears
Merit Badges Start a new thread showing photos of your outdoor cooking Start a new thread and post a photo of a flashlight as part of your EDC Start a new thread demonstrating paracord knot tying Must start new thread with photos of multitools (Magazine/Catalogue type photos) Must buy something on EDCSource Start a new thread and post a picture of fire making kit or fire with a multitool Start a new thread with a photo of custom or non standard SAK scales in your collection Must put something in order and provide link to the post. Participate in a challenge by carrying  a GEC knife and post a photo of it  for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread with photos of at least 8 different 130mm models in your collection Must start a thread with a photo of your birth year SAK Start a new thread with photos of at least 12 different 111mm models in your collection Start a new thread with photos of your titanium gear with a multitool or sak Start a new thread with photos of your Mora knives in use Start a new thread and post a photo of a traditional folder for thirty (30) consecutive days. Post your pocket dump photos then challenge two more members who must post their pocket dump photos within 24hrs for you to get the badge. Start a thread with photos of at least twelve different colored ALOX models in your collection Start a new thread with photos of your astronomy gear with a multitool

us Offline Spork, Lord of Lime Jello!

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Re: Questions about SAK history
Reply #4 on: April 24, 2016, 06:38:42 PM
Quote from: ReamerPunch on April 24, 2016, 12:48:22 PM
In 1891 Karl Elsener won the contract to manufacture SAKs in Switzerland.
Up until then, they were manufactured in Germany.

1. What happened to the original German manufacturer? Why is Victorinox contracted to make GAKs now? Is the German manufacturer Solingen? They've got some multi-function knives on ebay.


"At that time no Swiss company had the necessary production capacity, so the initial order for 15,000 knives was placed with the German knife manufacturer Wester & Co. from Solingen, Germany" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Army_knife

ro Offline Corwyn

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Re: Questions about SAK history
Reply #5 on: April 25, 2016, 07:07:38 AM
1. Wester & Co. from Solingen, Germany. I don't think they exist anymore. Hubertus took over some of their patents. Why shouldn't Victorinox be allowed to make GAKs? They are a private company, the biggest cutlery in the world and they probably came up with a design better, cheaper and more suited for the German needs... the market is free nowadays - there was an auction for the project and Vic won it. Solingen is not a manufacturer - it's an area in Germany where there a lot of cutlery companies. A bit like Seki-City Japan or Toledo, Spain or Sheffield UK, only far bigger and far, far more of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solingen,_Germany

2. Victorinox and Wenger. Nowadays Victorinox took over Wenger so it's just them. Are you sure you saw Amefa and Fosco SAKs? GAKs and DAKs use the army design patents, but I never heard about SAKs not made in Switzerland in the last hundred years...

Point 3 was very well explained by SAK Guy... plus the Swiza is not a pure knock-off of Victorinox... as long as they made enough tweaks to the design they can get away easily... Vic doesn't have the time and money to go after every cutler that does something similar (more or less to a sak) - if so, half of Solingen, Toledo and Guangzhou would be in courtrooms...
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 07:08:54 AM by Corwyn »
Corwyn of Multitool, the First of His name, King of Victorinox, King of Leatherman, Gerber and the First Generation SOG, Lord of the Seven Wrenches, Protector of the Forum, Khal of the Bushes, called Corwyn Toolborn, the Unsharpened, Father of SAKs.
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au Offline ReamerPunch

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Re: Questions about SAK history
Reply #6 on: April 25, 2016, 07:17:41 AM
Quote from: Corwyn on April 25, 2016, 07:07:38 AM
1. Why shouldn't Victorinox be allowed to make GAKs?

Of course they're allowed, I was just wondering why Germany didn't seek a local manufacturer.

Quote from: Corwyn on April 25, 2016, 07:07:38 AM

2. Are you sure you saw Amefa and Fosco SAKs? GAKs and DAKs use the army design patents, but I never heard about SAKs not made in Switzerland in the last hundred years...

Well, they apparently were rivals of Victorinox, but for DAKs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amefa-Victorinoxs-rival-Alox-Soldier-DAK-KL-81-Koninklijke-Landmacht-/351711042553?hash=item51e39c9bf9:g:DboAAOSwP~tW5YyI

From the description:
Amefa along with Victorinox used to make army pocket knives for various armies through the years.
This one is from year 1981 and it's made for Dutch Royal Land Army therefore KL Koninklijke Landmacht (Royal Land Army)
Scales are made with aluminium hence name Alox, model of this knife is called Soldier (guess why ;)).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOSCO-Victorinoxs-rival-Alox-Soldier-DAK-KL-95-Koninklijke-Landmacht-RARE-/351711043588?hash=item51e39ca004:g:pEMAAOSwmmxW5ZKL

From the description:
About Fosco: this company got contract once in 1995 to make pocket knives for Dutch land army, needles to say the contract was not renewed, quality of Fosco knives was not good enough, now Fosco from 1995 is incredibly rare collectible pocket knife, you can discover it on bay once maybe two times per year or not at all. Fosco is desired, legendary pocket knife which every DAK collector is dreaming to lay his hands on ;) This one is from year 1995 and it's made for Dutch Royal Land Army therefore KL Koninklijke Landmacht (Royal Land Army)
Scales are made with aluminium hence name Alox, model of this knife is called Soldier (guess why ;)).
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 07:23:02 AM by ReamerPunch »
Merit Badges Participate in a Challenge thread and post a photo of a tool made in a specific country for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in the Challenge thread and post a photo of a Flashlight for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge, carry a fire-starting item and post a picture daily  (in use if possible) for 30 days. Lighters, matches, ferro rods, fire pistons, Signal, candles, sparkers, tinder, stoves, bowdrill sets. Carry an orange item and post a picture of it everyday for 30 days.  Carry tools with single functions only. No multi-tools, no multi-layer Swiss Army Knives, no combo one-piece tools and post a photo for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread and post a photo of a SAK-alike, aka multi-layered, knife-based pocket tools for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread and post a photo of  a Bladeless Multitool for 30 days For each of the 30 days, or for as many as you are able to, post a picture of: Progress- Meals- Activities- Gear and participate in the thread and encourage each other. Participate and contribute in Challenge thread and post a photo of either an Axe, MT/Folding knife or Fixed blade (picked at the beginning of challenge) for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread, carry at least one black edc item, and post a photo every day for 30 consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread, carry at least one red edc item, and post a photo every day for 30 consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread, carry at least one green edc item, and post a photo every day for 30 consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread, carry a SAK, duct tape, and paperclip, and post a photo every day for 30 consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread, carry a ratcheting tool, and post a photo every day for 30 consecutive days. ? Create and post MTO-oriented and tool-based memes in the main meme thread. Participate in a Challenge thread, carry a modular tool, and post a photo every day for 30 consecutive days. Find him!

ro Offline Corwyn

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Re: Questions about SAK history
Reply #7 on: April 25, 2016, 07:28:57 AM
What I said... the DAK/Alox Soldier Design is owned by the army so they can hire several suppliers to make it on the same specs (see Vic SI vs Wenger Soldier).
It's the same thing with the old 108 GAK Design... there were at least a dozen manufacturers apart from Victorinox that made them.

Well.. as said it's a free market and the best bid won... I might be mistaking, but I think Vic has more fans in Germany than any German brand.

Caveat here... in 2008 the Swiss Army almost gave the contract to a Chinese company, but there was a public outcry... making the Swiss Army Knives outside of Switzerland so the government intervened and they went on quality instead on price and the Military OHT won the contract...
Corwyn of Multitool, the First of His name, King of Victorinox, King of Leatherman, Gerber and the First Generation SOG, Lord of the Seven Wrenches, Protector of the Forum, Khal of the Bushes, called Corwyn Toolborn, the Unsharpened, Father of SAKs.
Merit Badges Start a new thread with a photo of custom or non standard SAK scales in your collection Start a new thread and post a photo of a flashlight as part of your EDC Post your pocket dump photos then challenge two more members who must post their pocket dump photos within 24hrs for you to get the badge. Start a new thread showing photos of at least 3 different sporks in use Start a new thread and post a photo of the leatherman (blast, wave or charge) for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in a challenge thread and post a photo of a SAK Cybertool (any variant), Swisschamp, Champion or Toolchest for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread with photos of your hobo knives in use Must start a thread with a photo of at least five (5) of your watches Must start a thread showing a photo of at least eight BO tools Start a thread with photos of at least five different colored ALOX models in your collection Start a thread with a photo of a repair you made with duct tape Start a new thread with a photo of a modded knife or multitool with your EDC Start a new thread and post a picture of fire making kit or fire with a multitool Must put something in order and provide link to the post. Must buy something on EDCSource Must start new thread with photos of multitools (Magazine/Catalogue type photos) Start a new thread with a photo showing the Hook in use

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