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Police Need Smaller Surge

Rico-2 · 146 · 11042

00 Offline Rico-2

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Police Need Smaller Surge
on: May 06, 2016, 07:51:57 PM
Police Need Smaller Versions Of Surge

I suggest that Leatherman develops two smaller versions of the Surge for police officers, that weigh 5 ounce and 7 ounce. The lightest version of those would fit smaller police officers, like female and Asian officers, and older officers that may have decreased muscle power. And it would also fit police detectives wearing civilian clothes.

I call these two lightweight versions the Surge Mini and Surge Micro. They would be appropriate multi tools for frequent police use, since they would have several replaceable tools. Like replaceable screw bits, replaceable wood saw, replaceable metal file, and replaceable 154CM hard wire cutters.

The current Surge is way to heavy (12.5 ounce / 335 grams) for police officers, to carry permanently on their duty belt or utility vest. That would be too heavy for climbing and running in pursuit of often young and athletic criminals.

The blades of the above mentioned Surge Mini and Micro, should allow easy opening with winter gloves. A lanyard eye is also needed.

The short serrated blade of these small Surge versions needs a sheepfoot point for cutting seat belts and clothing on wounded victims.

The short plain-edged blade should have a clip-point for last resort self-defence against an attacking dog. This might ever be necessary, if the hand-gun and expandable police baton would both fail, or are out of reach.
 
The scissors in the Surge can be omitted, to save weight. Police officers could choose to carry small separate light-weight trauma scissors for cutting thick clothes on broken limbs. Scissors that fit in a multi tool are often too small for that task anyway.

The electrical crimper and bottle opener can also be omitted for police use. Bottles can be opened with the integrated can opener. And electrical repairs can be done with different tools in the patrol car.

The fixed screw-drivers can be omitted, since there is a bit-driver, for flat screw bits.

All the tools can be very short, to save weight.

The wood saw and awl with thread loop are useful in various disaster situations, for which police officers world-wide should be prepared. Because it may take days or weeks that military help arrives at a remote disaster scene, esp. if the disaster would be wide-spread. Remember for example, the Fukushima tsunami in Japan or hurricane Katrina in the New Orleans region. And remember the severe floodings and earth-quakes in Asia. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_T%C5%8Dhoku_earthquake_and_tsunami

The full-size and heavy weighing Surge can be additionally carried in the glove compartment of police vehicles, while the Surge Mini or Surge Micro sits in the police utility vest or belt pouch.

The above mentioned Surge Mini and Surge Micro can also become popular for soldiers, mountain climbers, campers and engineers. And for survival kits and bug out bags. And for emergency kits in cars, motorbikes and boats.

Leatherman could develop these Surge Mini and Surge Micro in close cooperation with specialized police equipment experts around the globe. That cooperation and consultation can be easily organised via internet communication, without travel cost.

If the Surge Mini and Surge Micro thus would become the prefered choice for police equipment world-wide, that would  also probably improve their reputation on the market of  private consumers.

It is important that police officers have multi tools, that are optimally suited to their tasks, and to their individual hand size and muscle power. That will probably help them to improve their quality and efficiency in serving the public, and reducing crime. Multi tool manufacturers can attribute significantly to those important missions, to support vulnerable victims.

Specs of the current full-size Surge:

http://www.leatherman.com/surge-830278.html

21 tools:

1 Needlenose Pliers

2 Regular Pliers

3 154CM Replaceable Wire Cutters

4 154CM Replaceable Hard-wire Cutters

5 Stranded-wire Cutters

6 Electrical Crimper

7 Wire Stripper

8 420HC Knife. Primary Blade Length:  3.1 in | 7.87 cm 

9 420HC Serrated Knife

10 Saw

11 Spring-action Scissors

12 Awl w/ Thread Loop

13 Ruler (8 in | 19 cm)

14 Can Opener

15 Bottle Opener

16 Wood/Metal File

17 Diamond-coated File

18 Blade Exchanger®

19 Large Bit Driver

20 Large Screwdriver

21 Small Screwdriver

This video below shows a smaller version of the Surge, that is hand-made as a single item, without Leatherman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FhmkdxznqI
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 08:44:47 PM by Rico-2 »


00 Offline Rico-2

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #1 on: May 06, 2016, 08:36:24 PM
An added advantage for Leatherman of the smaller Surge versions would be the following: Consumers will probably less often claim warranty repairs, if they can replace worn tools themselves, which the Surge concept enables.

These are the replaceable hard wire cutters, metal saw, metal file, and flat screw-bits. These repairs can be excluded by Leatherman from warranty repair. So this concept seems to offer a win-win situation IMO for both customers as manufacturer. 


The following forum topics are related:

Juice KF4 Appropriate For Police

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,66070.0.html


I Seek Experts On Police Multi Tools
 
http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,66096.0.html


Police Need Multi Tool Training

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,66097.0.html


us Offline Barry Rowland

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #2 on: May 07, 2016, 01:00:38 AM
I packed one in my pocket on duty, loved the tool, but agree that a duty friendly version would sure be nice! 
Barry


us Offline yud

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #3 on: May 07, 2016, 01:29:56 AM
I think you are still running up against two basic walls.

1). Leatherman does not want the user to meddling with the tools they make.

2). Leatherman does not seem interested in this market.

Given how long it took victorinox to give us Alox scissors, I don't think that the tool companies are interested in what we say or do on here.  So, what is your deal why are you interested.


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us Offline ironraven

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #4 on: May 07, 2016, 01:44:52 AM
Other than the blade exchanger, sounds like you're talking about a Wave with the Re-Wave mod for the pliers head.

And as a Surge owner, the fact that the Surge does NOT take a standard thickness tshank blade is a serious short coming. The only advantage I'd see to what you're describing to a Re-Wave is the hacksaw, and having tried to cut through metal with a leatherman file, I bought a couple of these and one lives in my pack with my bit driver. But it is slim enough you could pocket it without trouble. You can kill one, but it takes a bit of doing.
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00 Offline Rico-2

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #5 on: May 07, 2016, 12:55:10 PM
Leatherman does not seem interested in this market.

Given how long it took victorinox to give us Alox scissors, I don't think that the tool companies are interested in what we say or do on here.  So, what is your deal why are you interested.

I find it hard to believe that Leatherman would not be interested in police organisations, esp. since the stiff competition from cheap Chinese brands, and since tighter knife bans at airports world-wide, since the 911 incident in New York. Wenger payed the price for that.

And I guess manufacturers do secretly read this forum, but their opinions may differ widely from ours, about the demands and market chances of certain models and configurations of multi-tools.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 12:56:24 PM by Rico-2 »


00 Offline Rico-2

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #6 on: May 07, 2016, 12:58:33 PM
having tried to cut through metal with a leatherman file, I bought a couple of these and one lives in my pack with my bit driver. But it is slim enough you could pocket it without trouble. You can kill one, but it takes a bit of doing.
Good idea. Thanks!


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #7 on: May 07, 2016, 03:02:22 PM
Wouldn't a smaller Surge be a Wave?   :think:

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #8 on: May 07, 2016, 03:12:50 PM
Wouldn't a smaller Surge be a Wave?   :think:

Def

I thought the Surge was a bigger Wave all this time :ahhh


00 Offline Rico-2

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #9 on: May 07, 2016, 03:23:11 PM
Wouldn't a smaller Surge be a Wave?

IMO the Wave is too heavy for officers, at 8.5 ounce, and does not have replaceable hard wire cutters, replaceable saw blade and replaceable metal file. And all these tools tend to wear out quickly through frequent use. And some officers will mistreat their multitool, causing extra wear, broken saw and file etc.

http://www.leatherman.com/wave-10.html#start=2
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 03:50:13 PM by Rico-2 »


us Offline NKlamerus

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #10 on: May 07, 2016, 04:06:39 PM
I don't understand the concern with weight.

Realistically, all the officers I have met in the last year, which is more than usual do to circumstances, carry a knife and keep an MT in the Patrol Car. My EMT friends don't even carry an MT other than medical shears.

My Grandfather was Bill Meyers, who lost his life in the line of duty last year, the funeral service included more than 2 officers per county in the state of Florida, I had a lot of time to talk to most of them over the course of a few weeks. Most agreed the added weight of any MT isn't worth it. They would rather carry a blade.

Met some really cool people, and I will always owe all of them for the time and respect they gave my family and I during those weeks.


us Offline chrono

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #11 on: May 07, 2016, 04:31:24 PM
Quick and dirty way to shave off some weight on the Surge is disassemble the tool and drill or mill away a couple non-essential spots on the handle. The four sheet metal areas covering the 4 blades and the inside walls of the channel are good places to start. Really, Leatherman can make a lighter version Surge right now just by skeletonizing the handle. Same concept can be applied for the Wave.

However, there is no way to bring a Surge size tool to under 11 oz. Multitools are compact. In its closed form, the Surge is almost a solid block of steel. Its dimension is 4.3" x 1.5" x 0.8", whereas the steel density is 4.48 and 4.65 oz/cu in. Its official weight is 12.5 oz. So, you see, if you want Surge capability at half the weight, you will have to cut everything about the Surge in half.

Update: did not see a couple omission suggested.  :oops:
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 06:25:39 PM by chrono »


00 Offline Rico-2

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #12 on: May 07, 2016, 10:03:10 PM
Quick and dirty way to shave off some weight on the Surge is disassemble the tool and drill or mill away a couple non-essential spots on the handle. (...)

if you want Surge capability at half the weight, you will have to cut everything about the Surge in half.

About forty percent of the original size, that is my idea. I like your milling and drilling idea. Consumers could do that with many multi-tools, loosing their warranty though.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 10:06:08 PM by Rico-2 »


00 Offline Rico-2

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #13 on: May 07, 2016, 10:22:05 PM
Realistically, all the officers I have met in the last year, which is more than usual do to circumstances, carry a knife and keep an MT in the Patrol Car. My EMT friends don't even carry an MT other than medical shears.

My Grandfather was Bill Meyers, who lost his life in the line of duty last year, the funeral service included more than 2 officers per county in the state of Florida, I had a lot of time to talk to most of them over the course of a few weeks. Most agreed the added weight of any MT isn't worth it. They would rather carry a blade.

I am sorry for your loss.

Why would a police officer prefer a folding blade over a multi-tool, if he already carries a handgun, spare mags, pepperspray, taser and expandable baton?

The simple folding blade should be retained from snatching by a suspect, and does hardly offer options for improvised solutions and repairs on the streets.

Why would EMT personel not carry a full size multi tool, since they hardly have to run or climb?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 10:24:50 PM by Rico-2 »


us Offline yud

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #14 on: May 07, 2016, 11:11:27 PM
Realistically, all the officers I have met in the last year, which is more than usual do to circumstances, carry a knife and keep an MT in the Patrol Car. My EMT friends don't even carry an MT other than medical shears.

My Grandfather was Bill Meyers, who lost his life in the line of duty last year, the funeral service included more than 2 officers per county in the state of Florida, I had a lot of time to talk to most of them over the course of a few weeks. Most agreed the added weight of any MT isn't worth it. They would rather carry a blade.

I am sorry for your loss.

Why would a police officer prefer a folding blade over a multi-tool, if he already carries a handgun, spare mags, pepperspray, taser and expandable baton?

The simple folding blade should be retained from snatching by a suspect, and does hardly offer options for improvised solutions and repairs on the streets.

Why would EMT personel not carry a full size multi tool, since they hardly have to run or climb?

A folder feels better in the hand and multitools can be clucky to use as a knife.  And I would guess that most of the standard MT tool (the openers and verious screwdrivers) just aren't worth it.

A soldier might make a nice police folder.


Just another weirdo with a beard :B:

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us Offline Barry Rowland

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #15 on: May 08, 2016, 04:56:11 AM
I'm sorry for your loss too.

I don't understand the concern with weight.

Realistically, all the officers I have met in the last year, which is more than usual do to circumstances, carry a knife and keep an MT in the Patrol Car. My EMT friends don't even carry an MT other than medical shears.

My Grandfather was Bill Meyers, who lost his life in the line of duty last year, the funeral service included more than 2 officers per county in the state of Florida, I had a lot of time to talk to most of them over the course of a few weeks. Most agreed the added weight of any MT isn't worth it. They would rather carry a blade.

Met some really cool people, and I will always owe all of them for the time and respect they gave my family and I during those weeks.
Barry


us Offline Barry Rowland

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #16 on: May 08, 2016, 05:00:14 AM
Besides the can opener at the range, I've used (or lent) my m/t's pliers more than any other tool on duty.  Usually I lend it to the guys that left their's in their duty bag in the car.  I carried my PST for years as a duty tool due to its size and weight, and have since taken to using my Rebar.  It's a little more hefty in the pocket but my PST is just plain worn out.  I disagree that Leatherman is disinterested in the LEO market entirely, especially with the OHT out there.  I think Gerber probably has more of a vested interest, but Leatherman has always seemed to be open to ideas.
Barry


us Offline NKlamerus

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #17 on: May 08, 2016, 05:46:43 AM
Realistically, all the officers I have met in the last year, which is more than usual do to circumstances, carry a knife and keep an MT in the Patrol Car. My EMT friends don't even carry an MT other than medical shears.

My Grandfather was Bill Meyers, who lost his life in the line of duty last year, the funeral service included more than 2 officers per county in the state of Florida, I had a lot of time to talk to most of them over the course of a few weeks. Most agreed the added weight of any MT isn't worth it. They would rather carry a blade.

I am sorry for your loss.

Why would a police officer prefer a folding blade over a multi-tool, if he already carries a handgun, spare mags, pepperspray, taser and expandable baton?

The simple folding blade should be retained from snatching by a suspect, and does hardly offer options for improvised solutions and repairs on the streets.

Why would EMT personel not carry a full size multi tool, since they hardly have to run or climb?
Oh I absolutely agree with you, it makes no sense. But thats just they way they roll.

Most had Cryo's, Leeks, Bucks, and Gerbers. Slim pocket carry type knives that could be lost and didn't take space on a belt.

All the officers i met off duty still carried the same knife and/or a concealed weapon. Just to keep it simple i suppose.


se Offline Fortytwo

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #18 on: May 09, 2016, 02:18:36 PM
I've been giving this some thinking and I think I have a couple of points.

  • The most used tool will probably be the blade.
  • The blade needs to be an outside opening tool or the officers are not going to bother with it (possibly using another knife instead).
  • If the blade is good enough (length/handle/steel/lock/etc.) it might replace any another knife the officer will be carrying (thus allowing for more total weight of the multitool).

In another topic I mentioned the (now) Victorinox RangerGrip. I still think it's a good tool for the job with a good OHO-blade and an unusually good handle for a multitool. It surely has the potential to make an officer think twice about whether it's worth bringing another knife. The problem with it is that when you start adding the pliers to it the handle starts getting really thick and the whole package gets very heavy.

The Skeletool was mentioned here and especially with the new RX model they are really showing that they want to be in on this market.

But how about the Signal? I've said before that I think the Signal is a good frame that I hope Leatherman will make more out of (something not marketed at the survival crowd). This might be a good place to start. While the carabiner might seem a bit silly it does allow an officer to quickly get his hands free without loosing the tool.

  • Replace the small file with an extra bit.
  • Add a glass breaker to the hammer.
  • Replace the whistle/ferrocerium rod with a fold out strap cutter.
  • Replace the saw with a blade exchanger.



00 Offline Rico-2

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #19 on: May 09, 2016, 05:07:55 PM
The Skeletool was mentioned here and especially with the new RX model they are really showing that they want to be in on this market.

Leatherman cannot afford loosing the police market IMO, since they are facing strong competition from improving cheap Chinese brands and e-commerce.

But how about the Signal? I've said before that I think the Signal is a good frame that I hope Leatherman will make more out of (something not marketed at the survival crowd). This might be a good place to start. While the carabiner might seem a bit silly it does allow an officer to quickly get his hands free without loosing the tool.

  • Replace the small file with an extra bit.
  • Add a glass breaker to the hammer.
  • Replace the whistle/ferrocerium rod with a fold out strap cutter.
  • Replace the saw with a blade exchanger.

Interesting suggestions. The metal file is useful though. Extra screw-bits can be added in the pouch by each officer, if needed.The Signal has a very useful large bit-driver, but is too heavy at 7.5 ounce IMO.

http://www.leatherman.com/signal-439.html#q=signal&start=1


se Offline Fortytwo

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #20 on: May 09, 2016, 09:59:56 PM
The Skeletool was mentioned here and especially with the new RX model they are really showing that they want to be in on this market.

Leatherman cannot afford loosing the police market IMO, since they are facing strong competition from improving cheap Chinese brands and e-commerce.

But how about the Signal? I've said before that I think the Signal is a good frame that I hope Leatherman will make more out of (something not marketed at the survival crowd). This might be a good place to start. While the carabiner might seem a bit silly it does allow an officer to quickly get his hands free without loosing the tool.

  • Replace the small file with an extra bit.
  • Add a glass breaker to the hammer.
  • Replace the whistle/ferrocerium rod with a fold out strap cutter.
  • Replace the saw with a blade exchanger.

Interesting suggestions. The metal file is useful though. Extra screw-bits can be added in the pouch by each officer, if needed.The Signal has a very useful large bit-driver, but is too heavy at 7.5 ounce IMO.

http://www.leatherman.com/signal-439.html#q=signal&start=1

Not the one on the Signal though, it's a super small one and seems to be extremely fiddly. Adding the T-shank blade exchanger would allow for the file included with the Surge. No, it's not going to sharpen serrations but that's probably the only drawback.

As for the weight it seems like you would be super hard pressed to get what you want at the weight you want it. If we look at Leathermans offerings the ones down in the 5 oz range are the Skeletool, the Juice line and the PST.

I'll start by saying that while the Juices are really nice for what they are they are certainly fiddly. I wouldn't want to face the kinds of disaster situations you are mentioning with one of them. They lack some of the basic qualities I outlined before such as the OHO-locking blade but also qualities mentioned by others like being extremely unfriendly to gloved hands. Add to this that the pliers are fairly small and you end up with a tool that just don't cut it (IMHO).

The PST is way old and it shows, you lack tool-locks, outside blades, ergonomics, etc. (things that will add weight).

Lastly the Skeletool, extremely scaled down including a skeletonised frame and extremely limited toolset and still it weighs 5 oz.

A multitool will always be a trade-off but I think that you need those extra ounces to have a tool that will stand up to the task. If not, then you'll have to start removing some of the other factors. I just don't think the OHO-blade is a factor you should compromise here.

If you'd rather have a saw and lose the pliers you might start looking at e.g. SWISS SOLDIER'S KNIFE 08.


ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #21 on: May 11, 2016, 10:53:39 AM
Why would a police officer prefer a folding blade over a multi-tool, if he already carries a handgun, spare mags, pepperspray, taser and expandable baton?
A blade is not just another weapon, it is an extremely versatile tool.
It can be used as screwdriver, lever, pry-bar, opening a can etc., especially in an emergency where damage to the tool (blade) is secondary.
It wouldn't be the internet without people complaining.


00 Offline Rico-2

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #22 on: May 11, 2016, 02:37:32 PM
Lastly the Skeletool, extremely scaled down including a skeletonised frame and extremely limited toolset and still it weighs 5 oz.

A multitool will always be a trade-off but I think that you need those extra ounces to have a tool that will stand up to the task. If not, then you'll have to start removing some of the other factors. I just don't think the OHO-blade is a factor you should compromise here.

If you'd rather have a saw and lose the pliers you might start looking at e.g. SWISS SOLDIER'S KNIFE 08.

Police officers need decent hard wire cutters and pliers. The Skeletool RX is interesting, since the blade offers a last resort self-defence option, if the other police weapons would not be available or appropriate.

For example an officer cannot shoot his hand-gun in a crowd, without the risk of killing innocent bystanders. And bullets can only be carried in limited numbers.

Pepperspray may not work, if the suspect is on drugs, etc. The taser may fail. And the baton may be sometimes too heavy to carry, or can be forgotten to carry, or can be snatched away. And the Skeletool blade could seldom be used to kill an aggressive dog, as a last resort weapon.

And the orange Skeletool RX can be easily found, if it fell in high grass or water. Its blade has a safe sheep-foot point for rescue purposes, to cut clothing and seat belts.

The Skeletool RX can be combined with a seperate micro metal file and micro wood-saw like the Derma-Safe, which can be cheaply replaced, if worn out.

And the Skeletool RX can be combined with as many different screw-bits, as the officer can and needs to carry in a specific situation. Also a separate micro can opener can be carried, and a thick needle with a large thread eye. Plus separate micro scissors or mini trauma-scissors.

The carabiner of the Skeletool RX may be useful in a disaster situation for quick deployment, or for quick attachment of other equipment to a utility vest, or to attach a bag to a vehicle, etc.

The Skeletool RX can also be combined with the Leatheman Bit Extender with 1/4" screw-bits in all profiles and sizes.

So this set-up would be extremely versatile and flexible, allowing large weight reduction, if needed.

But there is a rumour, that the blade liner lock of the Skeletool series is not 100 percent safe, because it can be unlocked by pressing it accidently. This problem could be adressed by Leatherman though.

The high price of the Skeletool RX may be acceptable, since it has a 25 year warranty, which is quite impressive. And police agencies can negotiate the price and conditions with Leatherman in mega orders.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 03:44:56 PM by Rico-2 »


nz Offline zoidberg

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #23 on: May 11, 2016, 02:58:52 PM
Officers need decent hard wire cutters and pliers.

That rules the Skele RX out then.   ::)

The Skeletool RX is interesting, since the blade offers a last resort self-defence option, if the other police weapons would not be available or appropriate. For example one cannot shoot in a crowd, without the risk of killing innocent bystanders.

I don't know where you're from but around here police don't go stabbing into crowds, or depend on blades as a self defense option.

Micro files, mini trauma scissors.   :facepalm:   Micro can opener.   :rofl:


00 Offline Rico-2

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #24 on: May 11, 2016, 03:12:44 PM
The Leatherman website states that the Skeletool RX has hard wire cutters. The blade and wire cutters are made of 154CM steel:

http://www.leatherman.com/skeletool-rx-464.html#q=RX&start=1
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 03:19:00 PM by Rico-2 »


nz Offline zoidberg

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #25 on: May 11, 2016, 03:27:20 PM
Perhaps it was the translation.

Quote
This steel is used on some premium Leatherman tool features, such as knife blades and wire cutters.

With the Skele RX it's only the blade in 154CM.


us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #26 on: May 11, 2016, 03:58:46 PM
Perhaps it was the translation.

Quote
This steel is used on some premium Leatherman tool features, such as knife blades and wire cutters.

With the Skele RX it's only the blade in 154CM.

That is correct :tu: I would say the cutters and plier head are 420HC :D


pt Offline pfrsantos

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #27 on: May 11, 2016, 07:55:15 PM

The Skeletool RX is interesting, since the blade offers a last resort self-defence option, if the other police weapons would not be available or appropriate. For example one cannot shoot in a crowd, without the risk of killing innocent bystanders.

I don't know where you're from but around here police don't go stabbing into crowds, or depend on blades as a self defense option.

Micro files, mini trauma scissors.   :facepalm:   Micro can opener.   :rofl:

Yes, not many places where that happens...

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Also not many places where we have to consider asian LEOs and not hispanic ones...

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Slowly and surely, we're getting there...

 8) 8)

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us Offline yud

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #28 on: May 12, 2016, 12:56:29 AM

The Skeletool RX is interesting, since the blade offers a last resort self-defence option, if the other police weapons would not be available or appropriate. For example one cannot shoot in a crowd, without the risk of killing innocent bystanders.

I don't know where you're from but around here police don't go stabbing into crowds, or depend on blades as a self defense option.

Micro files, mini trauma scissors.   :facepalm:   Micro can opener.   :rofl:

Yes, not many places where that happens...

Show content
Also not many places where we have to consider asian LEOs and not hispanic ones...

Show content
Slowly and surely, we're getting there...

 8) 8)


In fairness I have never known Hispanics to be that much smaller on  average then say white people but then again we may just grow them bigger in Ohio.  Also are you insinuating that there is an area of the world that the police are accomplish knife fighters?


Just another weirdo with a beard :B:

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00 Offline Rico-2

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Re: Police Need Smaller Surge
Reply #29 on: May 12, 2016, 01:51:35 AM
micro can opener:



small trauma scissors:



 

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