Pioneer X problems

[Mercury]

I put mine on ebay.  The backwards nail nick just ain't gonna work for me. It didn't bother me at all until I actually got the knife.  I'm so used to opening the scissors a certain way and it just doesn't feel right.  No worries though, I can still build myself a custom one day.  I'm planning on a single layer Alox Vic-scissor. 

[dks]

Why do I feel like we are beta testing swiza all over again......   

[shibafu]

I disassembled a Pioneer X today and it also had a bent centre pin.  It was brand new and there were no noticeable problems with the action prior to disassembly.

[zoidberg]

+1

[Syph007]

I disassembled a Pioneer X today and it also had a bent centre pin.  It was brand new and there were no noticeable problems with the action prior to disassembly.

Ah so it must be the rivet forming process for sure then.  Pivots too long or being pushed with too much force.

[GigaHz]

Looks OK to me. I took the center pin out last so there was no stress on it when I tapped it out with a 2mm punch.

[Singh]

*bump*

Any news on this?

[tattoosteve99]

Last I heard it was being looked in to. I will ask and see what if anything has happened

[Omar Rapace]

Last I heard it was being looked in to. I will ask and see what if anything has happened

I am also anxious to hear about the issue. I have been using my Pioneer X on a daily basis for the last 2 months with no issue but since I have 3 other never used ones (including an expensive 2016 damascus one) I would like to know if I made a mistake buying all these. Please keep us posted.

[tattoosteve99]

I haven't heard anything lately. In reality they do not owe me a explanation but would be nice if they let us know. If I hear anything at all I will update

[Syph007]

I got in 4 for mod work, but haven't taken them apart yet.  If I notice anything I'll take pics.

[Syph007]

I did take apart one today and was super careful with the middle pin so I could examine it.  And it was indeed bent.  Not much maybe 5 degrees. 

The reason the middle pin bends and not the outer ones is the middle one bears most of the force of the backsprings.  So picture a force trying to bow out that pin while the pin is been compressed and formed... makes it curve inside.

So a fix would be to have a machine that holds the springs to relieve the strain while the rivet is being rivetted.

Note that this SAK worked fine, but maybe if it was bend more it could interfere.

[tattoosteve99]

I did take apart one today and was super careful with the middle pin so I could examine it.  And it was indeed bent.  Not much maybe 5 degrees. 

The reason the middle pin bends and not the outer ones is the middle one bears most of the force of the backsprings.  So picture a force trying to bow out that pin while the pin is been compressed and formed... makes it curve inside.

So a fix would be to have a machine that holds the springs to relieve the strain while the rivet is being rivetted.

Note that this SAK worked fine, but maybe if it was bend more it could interfere.

My thoughts also. The only thing I worry about is after time the pin may continue bending and will eventually be so far out tool start loosing snap.

[Singh]

hmm, so it seems the Pioneer X is a lemon due to a design flaw in the center pin? That's disappointing.

[Syph007]

hmm, so it seems the Pioneer X is a lemon due to a design flaw in the center pin? That's disappointing.

I forgot to also mention that the snap of it is somewhat dependent on the bent pin to be the right level of snap.  When I convert to rigid pivots OMG the snap is way too much like a guillotine.  In future I will probably modify the backspring to lessen that.

[MadPlumbarian]

So it all depends on what you get? Whether it's pre bent or straight on what you get? Or does it not matter, it's going to bend and be a crap snapper?
JR

[tattoosteve99]

So it all depends on what you get? Whether it's pre bent or straight on what you get? Or does it not matter, it's going to bend and be a crap snapper?
JR

More than likely. However I have noticed that it's getting better. Less than before. Like Syph said, it depends on where the bend is. If it's bent towards the tool=more snap, away=less snap.

[MadPlumbarian]

So it all depends on what you get? Whether it's pre bent or straight on what you get? Or does it not matter, it's going to bend and be a crap snapper?
JR

More than likely. However I have noticed that it's getting better. Less than before. Like Syph said, it depends on where the bend is. If it's bent towards the tool=more snap, away=less snap.

Ok, knowing my luck if I got one the bend would be so bad the tool would just hang rather then snap.. I'd like to get a new sak, and I've been thinking this one or the EvoGrip thingy, I think a 16 cause it pretty much a tool for tool as my custom, just smaller and not a alox , so in one case perfect but in others sucks.. Can't win..
JR

[SAK Guy]

hmm, so it seems the Pioneer X is a lemon due to a design flaw in the center pin? That's disappointing.

   Sounds more like an implementation problem, not a design flaw. When are these likely to fail...1 month, 6 months, a year, 5 years, 10 years?  Whenever they do fail, won't the Vic warranty will take care of it?

Not a lemon, I think the design is sound IMO.

[SteveC]

hmm, so it seems the Pioneer X is a lemon due to a design flaw in the center pin? That's disappointing.

   Sounds more like an implementation problem, not a design flaw. When are these likely to fail...1 month, 6 months, a year, 5 years, 10 years?  Whenever they do fail, won't the Vic warranty will take care of it?

Not a lemon, I think the design is sound IMO.

[tattoosteve99]

hmm, so it seems the Pioneer X is a lemon due to a design flaw in the center pin? That's disappointing.

   Sounds more like an implementation problem, not a design flaw. When are these likely to fail...1 month, 6 months, a year, 5 years, 10 years?  Whenever they do fail, won't the Vic warranty will take care of it?

Not a lemon, I think the design is sound IMO.

Really depends on where the bend is initially. At the top would be best, because as it would wear it would still have plenty of snap. I think switching to 3mm pins in all would correct this easily. Relatively speaking, less modifications to the tooling at Vic. 

[SAK Guy]

hmm, so it seems the Pioneer X is a lemon due to a design flaw in the center pin? That's disappointing.

   Sounds more like an implementation problem, not a design flaw. When are these likely to fail...1 month, 6 months, a year, 5 years, 10 years?  Whenever they do fail, won't the Vic warranty will take care of it?

Not a lemon, I think the design is sound IMO.

Really depends on where the bend is initially. At the top would be best, because as it would wear it would still have plenty of snap. I think switching to 3mm pins in all would correct this easily. Relatively speaking, less modifications to the tooling at Vic.

   I think I speak for us all when I say thanks to all you engineering guys that mod and research these problems for us. 

[cali-SAK-attack]

hmm, so it seems the Pioneer X is a lemon due to a design flaw in the center pin? That's disappointing.

   Sounds more like an implementation problem, not a design flaw. When are these likely to fail...1 month, 6 months, a year, 5 years, 10 years?  Whenever they do fail, won't the Vic warranty will take care of it?

Not a lemon, I think the design is sound IMO.

Really depends on where the bend is initially. At the top would be best, because as it would wear it would still have plenty of snap. I think switching to 3mm pins in all would correct this easily. Relatively speaking, less modifications to the tooling at Vic.

   I think I speak for us all when I say thanks to all you engineering guys that mod and research these problems for us. 

  AGREED

[JamesJ]

So...let's say I wanted to add scissors to my Farmer...as long as I'm using hardened pivots with screws, worst case scenario would be the snap would be too strong? And to reduce snap I would slightly grind the flat surface that mates with the flat sides of the tang on the scissors? Hmmmmm....I may wait and just always carry a compact along with the Alox.

Hopefully Victorinox will address this concern and then triumphantly release the Farmer X with perfect snap and we can all go and buy it in every color!

[shibafu]

I think this whole issue is overblown.  I bought 2 Pioneer Xs and they both had perfect snap.  When I disassembled one of them, it did have a bent pin.  I wouldn't have even known if I hadn't disassembled it.  There have been reports of poor snap, so I guess there were a few that were so bad the snap was affected, but they must be a rarity.  It's something that happens during assembly, and I don't feel there's any reason to believe it will get worse over time or fail.

[Singh]

It's disappointing. This should not be a problem, and it needs to be fixed. I'm a super fan and all, but I won't sugarcoat the fact that Vic got the design of the Pioneer X wrong.

I don't do mods, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think there's a design flaw with the backspring and center pin combo they're using because that center pin gets bent. Either the backspring is too strong or center pin is too weak, I don't know. That's something they'll have to figure out.

[redneckbear]

Any update on this problem, please? 

[GoatDragon]

One more try, any updates on this problem? 

[AimlessWanderer]

I've just been directed tho this thread, and I wonder if the pins are bending on disassembly, rather than assembly. The reason I say this, is that nobody seem to be mentioning any spraining of the liners, also when GigaHz dismantled his, he left the centre pin till last, so that it was fully supported until all stresses were removed. It does sound like the spring is a little over-tensioned though, unless of course there has been further development at the factory since this was highlighted to them .

[Syph007]

Yes spring is too strong.  When I do a conversion with one I have to weaken it.   The pin isn't a super tight fit in the spring pivot hole and it definitely bows.  Without the bowing the speing would be too strong on stock models too.  You could demonstrate but usnf rod stock of stock size but a steel or something that won't bend easy and assmble with that.  It will turn into a nail breaker.  The first conversion I did the customer sent it back for me to weaken the spring so now I always do.