Now, my wife wants a canoe/kayak!

[kkokkolis]

Yes, indeed.
The idea was mine, but she was fascinated and she is searching the web right now.
Since we have at least one kayaker here, I thought I might ask.


Specifications:


The canoe/kayak will be for sea trips. Perhaps some lakes too, but not for river kayaking. My wife as done that in Ladon river, but whit a teacher and a rafting boat. This time we want serene trips round the sea near our summer house, for leisure and fun and a bit of exercise for us who reach our 50's.


It should be for 2 persons, plus some load for food and some items. 200kg is what I think (I am slightly over 100, my son is taller and weights more, my wife and daughter are lighter -thankfully-, so it will be for one guy and one girl or two girls, unless it can handle 250kgr).


It should be sit on top. Because we might dive and swim at any time


Now, I don't know about three things.


1. Inflatable or rigid?
2. What brand? We have here a few, intex, Seastar, Kayak, Bestway, Aqua Marina etc.
3. How serious should I be with money/specifications? I mean, this is for fun, but it should be safe and long lasting. I would give up to 600 euros. I can't justify more, since it will be of limited use and we have many expences.


I've seen these:


http://www.cosmomarket.gr/index.php?p=4&item_id=102310









http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/eval/product-23586-460524.html





https://www.wetsuitoutlet.co.uk/2016-pro-tango-man-kayak-ta200-blue-free-paddles-pump-p-8408.html





And other similars.


What's your opinion?

[kirk13]

You need a Grant Lamontagne Signature model,in its signature screaming pink

[Whoey]

don't get pink, that's a manly colour 

[Grant Lamontagne]

I don't know what prices are like in your neck of the woods so I'm not sure how to answer that part.

For kayaks I prefer singles to tandem and my first thought would be to get two singles, and if you prefer to be both in the same boat, go for a canoe.

But, canoes aren't the best in the ocean, so if you have your heart set on a tandem kayak, there are lots of options.   That having been said, a two person kayak is only good for two people, while a similar sized canoe will carry more people if for some reason you want to bring others along.  Canoes are also better for cargo.

Kayaks however are more efficient and, with a lower center of gravity, more stable.  You will be slightly higher on a sit on top than you would be in a standard kayak, but not as high as you would be in a canoe.

I would also prefer a rigid hull to an inflatable as they are much more streamlined and efficient, you don't have to worry about rupturing it on rocks. One other problem with inflatables is that you inflate them as much as you can on land, but then they soften as the air inside condenses and shrinks.  That makes it even less efficient.

There are lots of two person, rigid hull sit on top kayaks on the market.  If I had to recommend a brand I'd suggest Hobie Cat because it gives you the option of adding the Marine Drive system, which allows you to pedal instead of paddling.  They aren't cheap, but they do give you options when your arms get tired.

Def

[Gerhard Gerber]

I've heard those called divorce boats on more than one occasion...... 

My only experience is with a fishing buddy in a tandem canoe, and I never liked it....

SOT kayaks are the best, but my experience is limited to dams.
 
I assume we're talking about calm and warm sea here?

[pfrsantos]

[kkokkolis]

Thank you all.


Yes, we are talking about a calm and warm sea. Leisure trips near the shore, exploring the rock cliffs, swimming and then back again, such things.
Nothing could lead us to divorce. And why would that be? The tasks will be distributed equitably. She will be the captain and I will be the paddler, cabin boy and sailor.


So, we go for a rigid hull. We would much prefer a tandem, because we can't have a paddler in one hull and a captain on the other, we need both. About the canoe, I don't know. We could have a surfboard and kayak paddles and we would have a similar setup, for wet trips around. A kayak looks beetter for our needs.


We have Hobbie Cats here but I found small sailing hulls, windsurfs and such,  no kayaks.


Santos, a Cork tree log would be just fine, but you have them all in Portugal.

[Sea Monster]

I'm not an enthusiast or expert, but in my few tandem outings - it's a bit of a nightmare.
I advise 2 singles.

I also have no problem swimming out of, and climbing back into my enclosed kayak, and the separate sealed area keeps all my gear and snacks quite dry in any conditions.


Here's a linky to my Kayak (review not by me, but it gives you an idea of the thing, plus there's other kayak reviews, so you might enjoy the research)
http://thewildernessreview.com/azul-odyssey-kayak-review/
The specs that drove me to buy it at the point in time that I bought it was - I can lift 20kg over my head to get it on the roofracks, and 3m was shorter than my vehicle at the time, so I could transport it without fuss.

I'm not sure if either of those factors are relevant to you.

If I had my time again, I'd probably have got an Oldtown Loon. I think at the time it was more expensive or something.


There is something to be said for fibreglass kayaks, but they tend to cost more, need a bit more TLC (polish and stuff, avoid being left in the sun) and don't like being dropped much





EDIT: As you sound like you've got the roles and responsbilities sorted and are happy with a tandem - See if you can try a few before you buy - Considerations include - Captain Comfort, Positioning of Captain to avoid getting splashed/dripped on by paddler, stability for Captain to enjoy light snacks and beverages, or operate optics / photography equipment.

[Gerhard Gerber]

I think the top reason would be if the person with you has a wobbly moment and topples both of you in the drink.......happened to me twice.

No experience myself, I assume bigger kayaks all have steering so the paddlers simply provide propulsion, but if you're steering with the paddles that's also a point where conflict can erupt 

The specs that drove me to buy it at the point in time that I bought it was - I can lift 20kg over my head to get it on the roofracks, and 3m was shorter than my vehicle at the time, so I could transport it without fuss.

 

+1

[Grant Lamontagne]

Yes, they are commonly called divorce boats, and with very good reason.  Unless you and the Captain can paddle in time, whichever of you is in the stern will seriously wonder if a paddle blade is sharp enough for a lobotomy.  The person in the bow seat is rarely aware of how badly they throw off the timing and tend to spend most of the trip complaining about how the person in the stern isn't pulling their weight.  There have been very few people I have shared a tandem with and not thought about arranging an "accident" for them.

But, if that is what your decision is, it's not my place to dissuade you, so I'll do what I can to help.

For the most part, sit on top tandems don't vary too much.  I'd suggest something around the 15 foot mark would be ideal for just about any paddling, and try not to go too far over a 30 inch beam.  The thinner a boat is, the more efficient it is.  The wider it is, the more stable.  Neither tandems nor sit on tops are as thin as single enclosed boats so you probably won't find anything under 30 inches.

Keep an eye on max load for the boat, which includes the weight of passengers- a boat that has a capacity of 400 lbs won't have any cargo space if you have two 200 pound paddlers.  Get an idea of the kinds of things you want to bring, add up that weight, plus yours and the Mrs' plus your paddling gear (pfds and paddles) and make sure the capacity of your boat is at least that much. 

This is another reason why two singles are preferable though- a tandem and a single often have the same weight capacity but the single doesn't use it all up with paddlers!

I'd avoid fiberglass like the plague, but then I don't think many sit on tops are fiberglass so that's a moot point.

Ancillary costs can be a killer too.

I assume your Duster has a roof rack?  You may need to get cross bars ($150-200) and a set of J Racks per boat ($100-150/set) just to carry the boat.

Then you will need paddles ($100-150 per set, more on these later), pfd's (I suggest inflatable or paddling pfd's as regular boat pfd's will ride up around your ears) and a boating safety kit ($50ish, check local laws).

For paddles you don't need to spend a huge pile of money on carbon fiber etc, but I do suggest getting fiberglass shafts (aluminum gets heavy after a while) and plastic blades.  CF blades are too flexible and get dinged up on rocks when you push off of the beach, shoreline etc.  And, make sure the paddle blades are feathered or curved.  DO NOT buy straight paddle blades as these are IMHO very dangerous as they provide little to no resistance when you put them in the water and that increases the chance of you upsetting the boat.  Unfeathered blades are only available in the super cheap range of paddles so it's not so much a personal preference as a universally accepted concept.

Don't get roped into the "right paddle for your height" thing.  I was obsessed with it at first myself and it is complete and utter bullsmurf.

Shorter paddles require a higher angle stroke and thus tend to be faster.  Longer paddles encourage a lower angle paddle stroke which has less power but uses a lot less energy and is good for longer distances.  I'd suggest you get the same size as your wife and stick to around 230cm.

There's more but I'm on my phone so I'll end this now.

Def

[Fortytwo]

I have a little experience with a couple of single and tandem fibreglass kayaks that my parents have as well as some with a pair of plastic ones we hired before we got the fibreglass ones. My feeling was that the fibreglass, when kept waxed and taken care of (step out of it before it scratches on the bottom and so on) was much easier to paddle. But that might be because the plastic ones weren't cared for.

As for tandems I never found it to be that much of a problem, instead it allows for more speed since it goes almost as easily in the water but with doubled power. Add to that that they are usually more stable and as such easier to get unto/into. Consider a three man (or two man with middle storage compartment) and use the middle hole for storage (I've seen people who brought their dog in the middle hole) to avoid the problems with keeping the paddling timed.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I have a little experience with a couple of single and tandem fibreglass kayaks that my parents have as well as some with a pair of plastic ones we hired before we got the fibreglass ones. My feeling was that the fibreglass, when kept waxed and taken care of (step out of it before it scratches on the bottom and so on) was much easier to paddle. But that might be because the plastic ones weren't cared for.

As for tandems I never found it to be that much of a problem, instead it allows for more speed since it goes almost as easily in the water but with doubled power. Add to that that they are usually more stable and as such easier to get unto/into. Consider a three man (or two man with middle storage compartment) and use the middle hole for storage (I've seen people who brought their dog in the middle hole) to avoid the problems with keeping the paddling timed.

Fiberglass will usually rupture easier than plastic since it is more brittle.  Plastic will gouge easier, but as it is more resilient it's less of a concern.  Plastic will warp in the hot sun, fiberglass remains rigid no matter the temperature.

Thee person kayaks are a little more rare and generally are very expensive when you find them.  I agree with the statement that it does move faster and easier with two people paddling, but again I stress that only works when the two are similar in skill and power or at least well times to eachother.  It's not just about striking paddles, it's about controlling the boat.  if you can't get a rhythm going with the other person the trip will be very unenjoyable for both.

Def

[kkokkolis]

Thank you all.
We saw one, similar to the blue above. It is plastic, it looked very stable, the two (lightweight) girls had no problem moving it around. Stability weights more than velocity in our case. We aren't going to compete for the Olympics after all.
The season is almost over for us, I might buy it during springtime. I'll be back to this thread with news.

[Grant Lamontagne]

It will probably be cheaper in the fall if it's in stock. 

But yeah, we can talk about this and that for years- the best bet is to get one and get out and use it.  My first kayak was a beat up 17 foot fiberglass sea kayak and I've done everything with it from surfing ocan waves to shooting rapids.

Any boat will do what you want or need it to, and you'll have a lot more fun buying something "close enough" and putting it in the water than you will waiting for the perfect boat to come along.

Def

[Sea Monster]

waiting for the perfect boat to come along.

The perfect boat is one that belongs to someone else that they don't need for the summer. 

[Syncop8r]

On the paddling rhythm thing, the person in front can't see what the person in the back is doing, but obviously the person in the back can see what the person in front is doing. To me it makes sense that the back person matches the front person's rhythm.

[eamo]

 

Bookmarked . . . I've recently got into kayaking and hoping to get one next year

[Gareth]

On paddling with a partner; the bow seat needs to paddle with a strong and regular stroke.  The stern seat needs to worry about the steering and matching the stroke. 

As the guy who often sits in the stern seat I can't tell you how frustrating it is when the person up front constantly breaks the stroke that you are desperately trying to match.  Every single time they suddenly stop paddling to admire the view or whatever you inevitably make an extra stroke that knocks you off course and then, obviously, it's your job to steer so any deviation is your fault. 

In the bow seat you have to trust that the guy behind you is doing their job.  You're sitting there doing your damnedest to try and keep a good rhythm and all they have to do is work with it and do a bit of steering.  Yet somehow the boat hasn't gone in a straight line and, as far as you can tell, they've not dipped their paddle in the water even once.  So, given they're not steering you're going to have to do it.

WHAT IS THAT IDIOT DOING??? I'm the one trying to steer here and all he's doing is throwing me off and making my job harder!!  Just paddle the damned boat!

FOR SMURFS SAKE!!!  Can't that chump just match the stroke just ONCE??  I'm the only one doing any work here and we've still not gone in a straight line.

and so on and so on........

Have fun.

[kkokkolis]

So, the man sits at the bow and the woman at stern. The bowman gives visual signs "left, right" and at times vocal ones "stop, steer 2 o'clock etc". The sternwoman paddles when at full spead. At half speed she might not. She steers the boat with port paddle to go right, starboard paddle to go left.

[Sea Monster]

She steers the boat with port paddle to go right, starboard paddle to go left.

Or the other way around, to do "handbrakies" 

[kkokkolis]

She steers the boat with port paddle to go right, starboard paddle to go left.

Or the other way around, to do "handbrakies" 

It is the other way arpund, isn't it? I got confused I think. Trial and error will solve it.

[Sea Monster]

Depends on whether you want a tight or sweeping turn, I suppose.

[Grant Lamontagne]

On the paddling rhythm thing, the person in front can't see what the person in the back is doing, but obviously the person in the back can see what the person in front is doing. To me it makes sense that the back person matches the front person's rhythm.

Ideally yes, but....

On paddling with a partner; the bow seat needs to paddle with a strong and regular stroke.  The stern seat needs to worry about the steering and matching the stroke. 

As the guy who often sits in the stern seat I can't tell you how frustrating it is when the person up front constantly breaks the stroke that you are desperately trying to match.  Every single time they suddenly stop paddling to admire the view or whatever you inevitably make an extra stroke that knocks you off course and then, obviously, it's your job to steer so any deviation is your fault. 

In the bow seat you have to trust that the guy behind you is doing their job.  You're sitting there doing your damnedest to try and keep a good rhythm and all they have to do is work with it and do a bit of steering.  Yet somehow the boat hasn't gone in a straight line and, as far as you can tell, they've not dipped their paddle in the water even once.  So, given they're not steering you're going to have to do it.

WHAT IS THAT IDIOT DOING??? I'm the one trying to steer here and all he's doing is throwing me off and making my job harder!!  Just paddle the damned boat!

FOR SMURFS SAKE!!!  Can't that chump just match the stroke just ONCE??  I'm the only one doing any work here and we've still not gone in a straight line.

and so on and so on........

Have fun.

This is funny to those of you that haven't experienced it.  Those that have may smile, but they know that it is all too real in the boat.  The person in the front may set the pace since they can't see the person behind them, but unless they maintain that pace things go horribly wrong.  It's not so bad if they stop paddling entirely, and on many occasions that is what I have suggested they do- stop paddling and let me do it all.   

It is actually much more annoying in a kayak than a canoe- at least in a canoe they can only screw up on one side of the boat at a time, but kayak paddles are double ended and when the other person decides to start up again, you never really have any idea which side they are going to randomly start on.

This is very likely the view the front person could have if/when they turn around....



Def

[eamo]

(Image removed from quote.)

Def

 

[Gareth]

(Image removed from quote.)

Def

 

Scary, but also a real possibility. 

[Gareth]

So, the man sits at the bow and the woman at stern. The bowman gives visual signs "left, right" and at times vocal ones "stop, steer 2 o'clock etc". The sternwoman paddles when at full spead. At half speed she might not. She steers the boat with port paddle to go right, starboard paddle to go left.

Kind of. 

The bow seat is normally thought of as the power plant, so you'd normally be right about who sits where, but that's also assuming equal skill levels.  Most important I'd say is to make sure the bow seats stroke is steady and even on both sides.  If the bow is pulling harder on one side than the other then it's going to be a right pain in the arse for the stern to steer.

The stern seat doesn't normally need any additional information on open water; the view isn't as bad as you might be thinking, however the bow does need to keep an eye out for things in the water.  Always best to agree a point that you are aiming for before you start though.

My friend and I have slightly differing opinions as to whether the stern seat paddles all the time or not.   I say they should and just vary the effort they put in, depending on the circumstances.

The one thing that a lot of new paddlers don't realise is that the faster the boat is going, the easier it is to keep in a straight line.  The simple way to affect the direction of the boat is to paddle harder on one side than the other; so paddle hard on the left and the boat will turn to starboard and vice-versa.  This will make for quite small adjustments when travelling forward, which is a good thing. However, as Sea Monster suggests, you can also just stick the paddle in on one side and hold it there.  This makes a fixed point (ish) that the boat will pivot around.  So in this case hold the left end of your paddle in the water and the boat will turn sharply left.  The big downside to this though is that it slows you down as well.

All that said there's no way you can learn to paddle while sitting at a computer so it's really best to get out on a quiet, safe, flat piece of water and give it a go.  Just remember to drink lots of camomile tea (it's a mild sedative) and communicate calmly and politely.

[kkokkolis]

I have rowed a boat before. But it used two rows. They were adjusted amidships. I counterrowed to change direction sharply. The boat had a rudder, which would be fixed in the center when you were alone on the boat, or could be used by a second person, because the person who roared had his back to the bow. You could do it the other way around (the bench permits both directions) but you could put more force with all your body lookin astern.
But the tandem kayak is diferent. The paddlers are seated for and aft the center of gravity. So a port paddle of the bowman strafes starboardwise, but from the sternman portwise. That's the way I understand it and I hope the project goes right and I'll have the opportunity to try it. Ofcourse, we can hire a tandem kayak and try before we buy.

[Grant Lamontagne]

Rowing a boat and paddling a boat are two totally different things, as are paddling a canoe and paddling a kayak.

But, all are fun and well worth doing, so I suggest you take every chance you get to do it!  Even places you have been a hundred times before on foot seem very different when you paddle through them.

Def

[Syncop8r]

However, as Sea Monster suggests, you can also just stick the paddle in on one side and hold it there.  This makes a fixed point (ish) that the boat will pivot around.  So in this case hold the left end of your paddle in the water and the boat will turn sharply left.  The big downside to this though is that it slows you down as well.

Or even rear person paddles backwards on one side and front person paddles wide on the other for a really tight turn.

[eamo]

Yes, indeed.
The idea was mine, but she was fascinated and she is searching the web right now.
Since we have at least one kayaker here, I thought I might ask.


Specifications:


The canoe/kayak will be for sea trips. Perhaps some lakes too, but not for river kayaking. My wife as done that in Ladon river, but whit a teacher and a rafting boat. This time we want serene trips round the sea near our summer house, for leisure and fun and a bit of exercise for us who reach our 50's.


It should be for 2 persons, plus some load for food and some items. 200kg is what I think (I am slightly over 100, my son is taller and weights more, my wife and daughter are lighter -thankfully-, so it will be for one guy and one girl or two girls, unless it can handle 250kgr).


It should be sit on top. Because we might dive and swim at any time


Now, I don't know about three things.


1. Inflatable or rigid?
2. What brand? We have here a few, intex, Seastar, Kayak, Bestway, Aqua Marina etc.
3. How serious should I be with money/specifications? I mean, this is for fun, but it should be safe and long lasting. I would give up to 600 euros. I can't justify more, since it will be of limited use and we have many expences.


I've seen these:


http://www.cosmomarket.gr/index.php?p=4&item_id=102310




(Image removed from quote.)




http://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/eval/product-23586-460524.html


(Image removed from quote.)


https://www.wetsuitoutlet.co.uk/2016-pro-tango-man-kayak-ta200-blue-free-paddles-pump-p-8408.html


(Image removed from quote.)


And other similars.


What's your opinion?

so how did this work out in the end ?