John's Shameless Discontinued Challenge Thread

[jalind]

You know that movie Outbreak in which a remote army outpost is bombed to bits to prevent the spread of a virulent disease?
For some reason I'm hoping the same fate awaits the Awl thread.... it won't die and it's certainly not doing humanity any favours...

I'm digging the Wenger. It's one of those SAKs I should want...and I kind of do - but then I remember 25% of the payload is an awl and another 25% is a tin-opener - another tool I never use. What you're left with is a cap lifter/screwdriver and a blade - so effectively it's just a glorified Bantam!
I am sure I will see the light, one day, and cave in....

The awl thread has a life of its own now. There's nothing you can do beyond holding prayer vigils and hoping for divine intervention. It is well on its way to becoming legendary, and will go into the annals of the SAK Forum as such alongside the "Ignore" thread. Must have been a while since you've seen Outbreak (1995) as it was released to cinema 21 years ago. The gov't wants to bomb a remote small town and are ultimately prevented from doing so.

If you have a Pioneer, you have, for all practical purposes, a Victorinox Soldier or a Wenger Soldier or a Wenger Standard Issue. Other than tang proof marks and a keyring on the Pioneer, and a bail on the Standard Issue, they're the same. I was photographing what I thought to be one of the two Victorinox Soldier, turned it over, saw the year stamp on the tang wasn't very deep, and realized it was the Wenger Soldier. If you've got one of the four, you've got the rest unless you want to start collecting them, and then it becomes pokemon, having to chase all the years down, and the changes from the old cross to the Vic shield on the Pioneer. They were designed as a soldier's utility knife, and they served that role superbly. They're very robust; built like a tank, and can take more abuse than a standard 91mm SAK. I've got what I want now and seriously doubt I will buy any more of them.

John

[jalind]

New Page Banana Man Dance:

 

[jalind]

Discontinued Challenge Day 20
Victorinox 111mm Dual Pro X

The Dual Pro X is directly related to the Dual Pro. The difference is a plain edge large blade and a Phillips on the back layer versus a serrated large blade and corkscrew on the back layer. Mine has the OD and black scales. The second serrated blade has been handy for cutting heavy nylon rope. Why Victorinox discontinued this still puzzles me; perhaps because the Dual Pro saw more sales volume. I got mine from existing retail store stock after it had been discontinued. Serrate the large blade and put Dutch coat of arms scales on it and you have the current Dutch Army utility knife. They apparently see greater utility in Phillips versus a corkscrew. Those of us who know how to get a wine bottle open without one, and without destroying the cork, don't need one.



Alas, no heavy rope or strap cutting today. There was use for the large, heavy duty combination bottle opener and flat tip. Unlike the 91mm Victorinox SAKs, it not only has the 90 degree stop, it also has a liner lock when fully open.

Mid-afternoon I made more beer bread. This time it's Hawaiian beer bread, with cubed ham, pineapple bits and shredded hard, sharp cheddar cheese. First I needed to get about 3 tablespoons (~15 ml) of butter. For baking I use unsalted butter as this prevents having to compensate by reducing any salt called for in the rest of the recipe. There's enough salt in the bread mix as it is. The large blade handles this magnificently well.



Here are all the ingredients gathered together with the stoneware bread pan and 2 quart (2 liter) Pyrex measuring bowl. I use this instead of a standard mixing bowl as it has a handle and a spout, albeit this bread dough is so thick it doesn't need much spout. The handle is perfect though for "pouring" the dough into the bread pan. Normal mixing bowls without handles require more scooping dough out of them than pouring.



Before mixing anything else in, the beer goes in right after the dry bread mix. This beer doesn't have a twist off cap, but it's no match for the Dual Pro X's heavy-duty cap lifter.



I spent enough time on the last beer bread with the mixing details. Suffice it that I put the ham in first, and save the cheese until it's nearly mixed, and then the pineapple until the very end. This maintains the cheese in mostly shredded form, and the pineapple bits would be nonexistent if put in early as they'd be shredded completely by the mixing process. Here it is in the bread pan, with some shredded cheddar sprinkled on top followed by drizzling the butter (now melted) on top of that. The butter helps brown the top.



Into the preheated oven for an hour and onto another task. It's that time of year again to change the change out the screen panel on the front door's screen door for the storm glass panel. Helps with insulation and loss of heat through the front door. In addition, if the screen panel were left on, blowing snow would get between the screen door and front door, which is a mess to clean out (been there, done that). The screen door frame has plastic U strips that hold the panels in place. To get the screen panel out I have to pry the strips out. The flat tip on the Dual Pro X is perfect for the task. Getting it started at the top is the hardest part.



Once started though, the rest of the strip comes out easily.



The screen panel and its aluminum frame is light, as you would expect. The glass panel, however, at the size of the entire door, is heavy in addition to being large, and must be handled with care. I've done this for 20 years now, but have always been just a little nervous about dropping it, or having its frame start to come off from around the glass. The latter started to once when I picked up the panel pulling on it too much. It was a royal PITA to get the U-shaped gasket back onto the edge of the glass, and then the U-shaped aluminum frame reseated on top of it. It's into the door and the strips are put back in using a small nylon mallet. That task is finished, the screen panel stored for the Winter.



That consumed most of the hour the bread was in the oven so there's not much longer to wait until it's done. With a stoneware pan I need to let it cool for an hour or so afterward. This compensates for the time it takes for the stoneware to heat up, which is significantly longer than a metal pan. Top looks great and the shredded cheddar sprinkled on top can be readily seen. Photo may not show it much, but a few pieces of diced ham can be seen near the top.



After a little over an hour with the bottom of the pan slightly warm, it goes onto a cooling rack for about a half-hour. It will also be releasing moisture. If put into a bread box now, that would condense on the inside of the bread boxThen it's time to slice it and put it into a bread box (has rack in bottom to keep bread elevated). This is just after slicing it in half before I cut each half into slices. The Dual Pro X blade isn't long enough for this, but I have a very nice long Forschner bread knife (owned/made by Victorinox). Even after sliced, I leave the bread box lid cracked open slightly for several hours as more moisture is released. The bread won't dry out as its kept pressed together as an entire loaf and the crust will prevent that.



Instead of a bagel with cream cheese or a trio of eggs tomorrow morning, I'll be having some Hawaiian beer bread! The cubed ham is most readily visible. Some of the shredded cheese strings are now visible as yellow "threads" in the bread, and some of the bits of pineapple can be seen, but don't show in the photo very well. I can smell the pineapple though!

John

[glenfiddich1983]

Nice thread! Nice to see not only the SAK but also the stuff you do with it and all the background info.
With some of the knives I was surprised to learn they are discontinued (alox bantam, alox solo, dual pro x).

 

[Thunderpants]

I always thought they should have called the Dual Pro X the Psycho Tinker...

[jalind]

Nice thread! Nice to see not only the SAK but also the stuff you do with it and all the background info.
With some of the knives I was surprised to learn they are discontinued (alox bantam, alox solo, dual pro x).

 

Thanks!

Regarding the discontinued, I checked the 2016 English language catalog with a list of all my Victorinox and crossed out everything I found there. Then I went back through a second time looking for the ones still on the list, and even did a search which you can do with that PDF. The Dual Pro and Dual Pro X were both gone. The only 84mm Alox now is the Cadet. The only 93mm Alox in the catalog are the Pioneer, Electrician and Farmer. I presume the Pioneer X is current with the catalog having been published before it was released. The Alox Bantam is all but impossible to find in North America with on-line retailers now, but the Cellidor Bantam is in the catalog and easily found on-line. The Alox Solo is still readily available from retailers. Retail stock can apparently last for a while. You can still buy a Champion Plus on Amazon U.S. although the price is creeping up now. It's been discontinued for how long now? I looked in the 2014 and 2015 catalogs and it's not in them either.

IIRC there was an announcement very early this year that there would be a consolidation and downsizing of the number of models being made, to get back to more of their core products. I interpreted that as meaning those with low sales volume would be eliminated absent a compelling reason to keep specific models. As an example, the Hunter and Hunter XT are in the catalog. They're a Dual Pro and Dual Pro X with third layer containing a wood saw. It's my best guess they were selling more of them than the Dual Pro [X] and the Hunter models survived while the Dual Pro models didn't. Even so, models like the Alox Bantam also surprised me. That's my take on it.

Thanks,
John

[jalind]

I always thought they should have called the Dual Pro X the Psycho Tinker...

 
Gave me visions of the famous shower scene from Hitchcock's movie! I'm still wondering why the Dutch Army selected a serrated large blade version of the Dual Pro X instead of the wood saw like all the other armies have. No trees in the Netherlands? Only heavy ropes, thick straps and windmills?

Thanks
John

[Ron Who]

Nice thread! Nice to see not only the SAK but also the stuff you do with it and all the background info.
With some of the knives I was surprised to learn they are discontinued (alox bantam, alox solo, dual pro x).

 

Thanks!

Regarding the discontinued, I checked the 2016 English language catalog with a list of all my Victorinox and crossed out everything I found there. Then I went back through a second time looking for the ones still on the list, and even did a search which you can do with that PDF. The Dual Pro and Dual Pro X were both gone. The only 84mm Alox now is the Cadet. The only 93mm Alox in the catalog are the Pioneer, Electrician and Farmer. I presume the Pioneer X is current with the catalog having been published before it was released. The Alox Bantam is all but impossible to find in North America with on-line retailers now, but the Cellidor Bantam is in the catalog and easily found on-line. The Alox Solo is still readily available from retailers. Retail stock can apparently last for a while. You can still buy a Champion Plus on Amazon U.S. although the price is creeping up now. It's been discontinued for how long now? I looked in the 2014 and 2015 catalogs and it's not in them either.

IIRC there was an announcement very early this year that there would be a consolidation and downsizing of the number of models being made, to get back to more of their core products. I interpreted that as meaning those with low sales volume would be eliminated absent a compelling reason to keep specific models. As an example, the Hunter and Hunter XT are in the catalog. They're a Dual Pro and Dual Pro X with third layer containing a wood saw. It's my best guess they were selling more of them than the Dual Pro [X] and the Hunter models survived while the Dual Pro models didn't. Even so, models like the Alox Bantam also surprised me. That's my take on it.

Thanks,
John

The Swiss Victorinox website still has the Alox Solo and Alox Bantam.

[magentus]

Fantastic thread John  Lots of superb info and pics, I look forward to it every day. 

[glenfiddich1983]

I always thought they should have called the Dual Pro X the Psycho Tinker...

 
Gave me visions of the famous shower scene from Hitchcock's movie! I'm still wondering why the Dutch Army selected a serrated large blade version of the Dual Pro X instead of the wood saw like all the other armies have. No trees in the Netherlands? Only heavy ropes, thick straps and windmills?

Thanks
John

We do have a lot of trees, but we Dutchies simply prefer to hug trees instead of cutting them down.

[jalind]

Nice thread! Nice to see not only the SAK but also the stuff you do with it and all the background info.
With some of the knives I was surprised to learn they are discontinued (alox bantam, alox solo, dual pro x).

 

Thanks!

Regarding the discontinued, I checked the 2016 English language catalog with a list of all my Victorinox and crossed out everything I found there. Then I went back through a second time looking for the ones still on the list, and even did a search which you can do with that PDF. The Dual Pro and Dual Pro X were both gone. The only 84mm Alox now is the Cadet. The only 93mm Alox in the catalog are the Pioneer, Electrician and Farmer. I presume the Pioneer X is current with the catalog having been published before it was released. The Alox Bantam is all but impossible to find in North America with on-line retailers now, but the Cellidor Bantam is in the catalog and easily found on-line. The Alox Solo is still readily available from retailers. Retail stock can apparently last for a while. You can still buy a Champion Plus on Amazon U.S. although the price is creeping up now. It's been discontinued for how long now? I looked in the 2014 and 2015 catalogs and it's not in them either.

IIRC there was an announcement very early this year that there would be a consolidation and downsizing of the number of models being made, to get back to more of their core products. I interpreted that as meaning those with low sales volume would be eliminated absent a compelling reason to keep specific models. As an example, the Hunter and Hunter XT are in the catalog. They're a Dual Pro and Dual Pro X with third layer containing a wood saw. It's my best guess they were selling more of them than the Dual Pro [X] and the Hunter models survived while the Dual Pro models didn't. Even so, models like the Alox Bantam also surprised me. That's my take on it.

Thanks,
John

The Swiss Victorinox website still has the Alox Solo and Alox Bantam.

For reasons that escape me, the catalog there is still the 2015, not the 2016. Doesn't matter what they're selling. That doesn't mean it's current product. It only means it's what they have on hand in stock. Note the year on the front of the catalog (2015):

https://www.victorinox.co...nox-Catalogs/cms/catalogs



Compare that with the 2016 PDF catalog found here, and it's the only 2016 knife catalog I've found:

http://assets.victorinox....Q2MDU1YjQxMTliZmFkYWFlOTc



The 2016 catalog was discussed here in January:

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=64390.0

That's the 2016 catalog I used. If it wasn't in there, other than the Pioneer X, I considered it discontinued.

Amazon's page for the Alox Bantam (unavailable and don't know if or when it will be in stock again; the usual verbage for discontinued items)

https://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Alox-Bantam-Silver-Vic0230026/dp/B000MLU5MU

Similar page for the Alox Solo . . .

https://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Swiss-Pocket-Silver-Ribbed/dp/B0007QCO7E/

John

[jalind]

Discontinued Challenge Day 21
Wenger 85mm Tradesman

The Tradesman is Wenger's version of the Victorinox Deluxe Tinker with an opener layer, blade layer, scissors, pliers and Phillips on the back layer in addition to the awl. Although it has four layers, it feels more compact. Some prefer the Wenger scissors as it uses a lever pushing on the layer spring instead of the thin leaf spring. There are also those that don't care for it as much as this moves the scissors up and down some relative to the knife body. The Wenger pliers are slip-joint with a second position that opens the jaws wider than the jaws can on a Victorinox's 91mm such as the Deluxe Tinker. Also has a wire cutter hole which helps hold a wire in place compared to simply shearing it in the short section next to the pivot on the Victorinox pliers. Spring is same scheme as for the scissors using a lever that pushes on the layer spring. The flat tip on the cap lifter also locks when pressed firmly against a screw head when used fully open. This keeps it from closing up when pressure is put on it. The movement is slight and some users don't notice it as once pressure is removed, it unlocks again and can be freely closed. Unlike the newer Victorinox (since the 1990's), there is no 90 degree stop and therefore should only be used fully open. I freely admit to having become spoilt by the Victorinox awl, can opener, toothpick and tweezers. Nevertheless, these are marvelously compact compared to the Victorinox 91mm size, making them more pocket friendly, especially for the hipsters with tight jeans.



Nothing that dramatic today. A package arrived with a set of translucent blue Wenger scales. These are the older v2 variety that snap on to buttons stamped into the exterior liners, versus the v1 and v3. They have the corkscrew/Phillips cutout and slots for a toothpick and tweezers. Aside from the attachment design, Wenger made 85mm models without a Phillips or corkscrew, and some didn't come with toothpick and tweezers. I have two fo these Commanders (no T&T) with Loctite marketing logos. I'm going to convert one of them into a Classic 10 with T&T that has just the standard Wenger logo.



As I showed previously in a comparison of a Wenger Evolution with a Victorinox Delemont Evolution, the Wenger scales wrap around the outer liners. This is the case with the classic oval/egg shape also. Using the Tradesman flat tip on the end of the cap lifter, I pry away the scale slightly to reveal the outer liner and slip under it. There is no T&T slot to use to slip under the scale on the Commander.



Once under it, the scales pop off without any difficulty and removing these v2 attachment design scales seems easier than removing Victorinox scales. Once the scales are off, it reveals very clearly how the v2 attachment scheme works.



To get the front side off (logo and awl side), I use the keyring lug to help get the flat tip under the edge of the scales to pry it up and slip it under them.



The front side comes off just as easily as the back side did. Note that the keyring split ring has been removed. This should be taken off before removing the scales and remain off until the new ones are on. It's important to note the v1, v2 and v3 scales are *not* interchangeable. The v3 is the same scheme as used by the Wenger Evolution and EvoGrip. When finding replacement scales, one needs to know which type of attachment scheme the knife uses. This scheme can be seen from the inside of the knife if the blade layer or opener layer is opened completely as these stamped buttons and holes in the outer liners are readily visible, with the scales plastic circular flanges pressed through the holes.

During the initial introduction of the v3 attachment scheme which rolled out with the introduction of the Evolution line, there were still stocks of outer liners with these holes stamped in them, but they were still flat with out their button centers being raised yet (in a different stamping operation to form them). Wenger used these on the v3 attachment scheme to consume existing stocks. As a result there are some v3 that have the holes in the outer liners, but are still flat, and the v2 scales will not mount to them as the scheme requires the center to be raised.



To install the new scales I use the same process as with a Victorinox. The corkscrew is opened out completely to 90 degrees to get it out of the way as it stands proud from the surface of the scales (as does a Phillips as well). This keeps it from being bent when pressing the new scales on. The first step is aligning the scales on both sides carefully with the attachment points on the outer liners. Then I put it on a surface padded by several layers of soft cotton (old T-shirts) and press on it with the heel of my hand.



Some of the attachment points will snap into place and this can be heard. Here I'm pressing across the entire width with the heel of my hand and using my weight on it.



Not all the attachment points snap on and this isn't unusual. I use a small bench vise with padded jaws. The corkscrew remains opened up to keep it out of the way, and the keyring split ring remains removed. The padding is high density foam.



Sometimes, if one end is completely on, it helps to shift the SAK slightly in the vise to press on the remaining attachment points. I don't recommend using the vise on the very end points and will shift it to press on at least half the knife. I tighten the vise slowly and gradually increase the pressure, watching the scales and outer liners carefully, applying only as much pressure as is needed to press the scales on.



Now that the scales are on, it's time to install the toothpick and tweezers and put the split ring back onto the keyring lug. The flat tip comes in handy again to open up the split ring enough to get it back onto the knife.



The same technique is used to put a short lanyard fob that came with a used SAK I bought some time ago onto the split ring. Completely finished, I now have a Classic 10 with (IMO) beautiful blue translucent scales and one "Loctite" imprinted Commander, instead of two of the latter. The blue paracord's color matches the scales perfectly!
 



The Tradesman wasn't used for anything beyond its clip point blade and scissors opening the mail followed by using its flat tip driver for this task today, but not every day is high drama.

EDIT (notes on Wenger scales swaps):

Had to be careful about finding the proper version of scales for this Commander as it used the older v2 raised outer liner buttons. The newer scales after circa 2007 (??) will not work and cannot be modified to fit the mounting buttons. Likewise these scales cannot be used on the newer knives made for v3 scales mounting. There are new old stock Wenger Evolution and EvoGrip replacement scales floating about on the Internet that use v3 mounting and you can convert some with standard v3 scales to Evolution or EvoGrip models. I've got a Highlander with the v3 mounting scheme and could do it if desired to make it an Evo 11. (Already have a Wenger EvoGrip 11 Blackout and a Vic Evolution S111; don't need another one.) That conversion cannot be done with this Commander as the Evolution and EvoGrip scales won't fit the v2 mounting points (already have a Wenger Evo S101 too). The bottom line when replacing Wenger scales is even on BNIB new old stock floating around is knowing which version of scales mounting the knife was made with. Some are v2 and some are v3. I've not had the scales off of a v3 but believe those use the rivets in a scheme similar to Victorinox and not the outer liners.

By comparison, the Victorinox knives since some point in the 1960's or so have used the same mounting scheme for their Cellidor scales on at least the 91mm, and I believe the 84mm as well. Would be surprised if this weren't the case with 74mm and 58mm also. I've never concerned myself with the age of the knife when replacing its scales with brand new ones. I've not had one dating to the 1960's with a bail and/or completely different awl shape and scales outline around it which would obviously not take current scales.

Additional note regarding Victorinox Delemont Evolution and EvoGrip:
Victorinox Evolution and EvoGrip scales will not fit on any Wenger knives as Victorinox redesigned the shape of the outer liners to match the kidney shape of the Evolution scales. Likewise, the Wenger won't fit on any Victorinox.

John

[Poncho65]

Excellent stuff in this thread Thanks for the scale swap bit of a Wenger as I don't believe I have ever saw one without it's scales

[jalind]

Excellent stuff in this thread Thanks for the scale swap bit of a Wenger as I don't believe I have ever saw one without it's scales

Thanks!

I should add a note - and will to that posting if I still can -

Had to be careful about finding the proper version of scales for this Commander as it used the older v2 raised outer liner buttons. The newer scales after circa 2007 (??) will not work and cannot be modified to fit the mounting buttons. Likewise these scales cannot be used on the newer knives made for v3 scales mounting. There are new old stock Wenger Evolution and EvoGrip replacement scales floating about on the Internet that use v3 mounting and you can convert some with standard v3 scales to Evolution or EvoGrip models. I've got a Highlander with the v3 mounting scheme and could do it if desired to make it an Evo 11. (Already have a Wenger EvoGrip 11 Blackout and a Vic Evolution S111; don't need another one.) That conversion cannot be done with this Commander as the Evolution and EvoGrip scales won't fit the v2 mounting points (already have a Wenger Evo S101 too). The bottom line when replacing Wenger scales is even on BNIB new old stock floating around is knowing which version of scales mounting the knife was made with. Some are v2 and some are v3.

By comparison, the Victorinox knives since some point in the 1960's or so have used the same mounting scheme for their Cellidor scales on at least the 91mm, and I believe the 84mm as well. Would be surprised if this weren't the case with 74mm and 58mm also. I've never concerned myself with the age of the knife when replacing its scales with brand new ones. I've not had one dating to the 1960's with a bail and/or completely different awl shape and scales outline around it which would obviously not take current scales.

Additional note regarding Victorinox Delemont Evolution and EvoGrip:
Victorinox Evolution and EvoGrip scales will not fit on any Wenger knives as Victorinox redesigned the shape of the outer liners to match the kidney shape of the Evolution scales. Likewise, the Wenger won't fit on any Victorinox.

John

[jalind]

Discontinued Challenge Day 22
Wenger 85mm Classic 10

The Classic 10 is part of a large family that includes the Classic 07 and Commander. Some have the keyring chain; some do not (the Commander is among them). Some have tootpick and tweezers; some do not (the Commander is among them). Most have a large plain edge spearpoint blade; a few have a serrated large blade. All of them have these seven tools in common:

• Large spearpoint blade (some models serrated)
• Nail file with nail cleaner tip
• Cap lifter with wire stripper and large flat-tip screwdriver
• Can opener
• Corkscrew
• Awl
• Keyring stud with split ring (some models with chain and some without)

It is the Wenger equivalent of the Victorinox 84mm Sportsman, although the variants without T&T might be closer to its cousin, the Assistant (a nylon economy scales Sportsman without T&T or keyring). These were one of the favorite full-size Wenger SAKs for companies and other organizations to have imprinted with corporate logos and marketing advertising. This example started as one of two Commanders I have with  Loctite marketing logos imprinted on its scales along with the Wenger logo. Changing its scales to translucent blue classic ones with the metal inlay Wenger logo and T&T slots quickly converted it in just a few minutes into a Classic 10 T&T smooth blade variant without the keyring chain, just the split ring. Its slim two-layer thickness and 85mm length in an oval profile make it very pocket friendly. Noticeably lighter and more compact than yesterday's four-layer Tradesman.



Not surprising it should have its maiden voyage after having been converted into a Classic 10 yesterday (see Day 21 Discontinued posting). It was relatively uneventful. The mail arrived with two packages I had been expecting for a while, both SAK related. The first was an envelope marked "NON-MACHINABLE" in large bold letters, undoubtedly stamped with this by the post office. It has a very stiff card inside that will not go around the corners in the high-speed automated letter handling equipment. As this knife was BNIB (old stock) when acquired and sat in storage until its conversion, the large blade sliced through the envelope fold as if it wasn't there.



Inside are sets of Wenger toothpicks and tweezers for the large knives that require angled ends as the slots for them are off-center. I had been expecting these. The ones in this conversion were borrowed from a second Evolution 63 I've had stored. These were delayed by a week and a T&T set will replace the borrowed ones. The rest will go into the bin of SAK spare and repair parts that includes split rings, scissors springs, T&T sets, etc. Losing a toothpick or tweezers hasn't happened in a long time, nor has a Victorinox scissors spring broken in quite a few years. T&T loss has almost occurred a number of times, the toothpick in particular.



The next one was anticipated as it was a registered parcel from Taiwan and I knew it would be delivered today (from on-line tracking). It's a sturdy vinyl envelope with an obviously padded lump inside. Like the paper envelope, the Classic 10's blade slices through it as if it's not there.



The contents are cocooned in several layers of bubble wrap. No machines are heavy parcels were going to damage this one!



Inside this is a Victorinox belt pouch of heavy leather. This size, made for the SwissChamp, isn't available any more in North America. Only the much wider ones for the SwissChamp XLT and XAVT. Had to do some searching to find a new one for the recently acquired SwissChamp. Found a seller in Taiwan that had one. These are impressive, having just received a seven layer Champion in one slightly narrower that was made for it (the pliers it doesn't have are almost two layers wide). IMHO they're more rugged and durable than the tooled leather Zermatt pouches, and they're lined.



Seeing how the SwissChamp with its new black plus scales fits cannot wait! It's snug without being unduly tight and would expect it to be with a new belt pouch. It will loosen up a little with time.



A view from the end shows how the sides are stitched onto the one-piece front/back/flap that wraps around the sides. The design will retain some snugness even as the leather becomes more supple, stretches a little and conforms to the knife shape over time. The SwissChamp has an excellent belt pouch now with a nice belt loop built into it on the back. Its color goes well with the SwissChamp's black scales. Like any well-dressed woman, the shoes, belt and purse match the dress. (I wonder if this photo qualifies for the "Pics of your SAKs INSIDE" thread?)



A a relatively uneventful day for the Wenger Classic 10 that underwent minor SAKs-change surgery yesterday, but nevertheless a very successful maiden voyage.

John

[Poncho65]

Excellent stuff in this thread Thanks for the scale swap bit of a Wenger as I don't believe I have ever saw one without it's scales

Thanks!

I should add a note - and will to that posting if I still can -

Had to be careful about finding the proper version of scales for this Commander as it used the older v2 raised outer liner buttons. The newer scales after circa 2007 (??) will not work and cannot be modified to fit the mounting buttons. Likewise these scales cannot be used on the newer knives made for v3 scales mounting. There are new old stock Wenger Evolution and EvoGrip replacement scales floating about on the Internet that use v3 mounting and you can convert some with standard v3 scales to Evolution or EvoGrip models. I've got a Highlander with the v3 mounting scheme and could do it if desired to make it an Evo 11. (Already have a Wenger EvoGrip 11 Blackout and a Vic Evolution S111; don't need another one.) That conversion cannot be done with this Commander as the Evolution and EvoGrip scales won't fit the v2 mounting points (already have a Wenger Evo S101 too). The bottom line when replacing Wenger scales is even on BNIB new old stock floating around is knowing which version of scales mounting the knife was made with. Some are v2 and some are v3.

By comparison, the Victorinox knives since some point in the 1960's or so have used the same mounting scheme for their Cellidor scales on at least the 91mm, and I believe the 84mm as well. Would be surprised if this weren't the case with 74mm and 58mm also. I've never concerned myself with the age of the knife when replacing its scales with brand new ones. I've not had one dating to the 1960's with a bail and/or completely different awl shape and scales outline around it which would obviously not take current scales.

Additional note regarding Victorinox Delemont Evolution and EvoGrip:
Victorinox Evolution and EvoGrip scales will not fit on any Wenger knives as Victorinox redesigned the shape of the outer liners to match the kidney shape of the Evolution scales. Likewise, the Wenger won't fit on any Victorinox.

John

I have heard that the Wenger scales are hit or miss whether they will fit or not Wonder why in the world they would make it so hard to change scales

[Poncho65]

Great pics today as well

 

[jalind]

Thanks!

I should add a note - and will to that posting if I still can -

Had to be careful about finding the proper version of scales for this Commander as it used the older v2 raised outer liner buttons. The newer scales after circa 2007 (??) will not work and cannot be modified to fit the mounting buttons. Likewise these scales cannot be used on the newer knives made for v3 scales mounting. There are new old stock Wenger Evolution and EvoGrip replacement scales floating about on the Internet that use v3 mounting and you can convert some with standard v3 scales to Evolution or EvoGrip models. I've got a Highlander with the v3 mounting scheme and could do it if desired to make it an Evo 11. (Already have a Wenger EvoGrip 11 Blackout and a Vic Evolution S111; don't need another one.) That conversion cannot be done with this Commander as the Evolution and EvoGrip scales won't fit the v2 mounting points (already have a Wenger Evo S101 too). The bottom line when replacing Wenger scales is even on BNIB new old stock floating around is knowing which version of scales mounting the knife was made with. Some are v2 and some are v3.

By comparison, the Victorinox knives since some point in the 1960's or so have used the same mounting scheme for their Cellidor scales on at least the 91mm, and I believe the 84mm as well. Would be surprised if this weren't the case with 74mm and 58mm also. I've never concerned myself with the age of the knife when replacing its scales with brand new ones. I've not had one dating to the 1960's with a bail and/or completely different awl shape and scales outline around it which would obviously not take current scales.

Additional note regarding Victorinox Delemont Evolution and EvoGrip:
Victorinox Evolution and EvoGrip scales will not fit on any Wenger knives as Victorinox redesigned the shape of the outer liners to match the kidney shape of the Evolution scales. Likewise, the Wenger won't fit on any Victorinox.

John

I have heard that the Wenger scales are hit or miss whether they will fit or not Wonder why in the world they would make it so hard to change scales

I don't believe there's a manufacturing variation issue in the scales or outer liners that would cause this. Such a situation would be intolerable on the factory manufacturing line. Replacement scales come from the same molds and manufacturing molding machines as the ones used in knife production. I'm wondering if what you heard - at least in large measure - is the result of people trying to put v2 traditional scales on v3 knife frames, or vice versa, trying to fit v3 scales onto v2 frames. Pictures of the two versions of scales and frames (outer liners) look like they might work, or could be made to work with minimal modification, but they won't. The two are not interchangeable, and cannot be modified to make them interchangeable. That I've gleaned from the remarks about the two mounting scheme versions elsewhere by folks who've tried it.

There had to be a compelling reason to change from the v2 mounting scheme to the v3 scheme. It incurred a cost in changing their manufacturing to implement it, not the least of which was new molds for the traditional flat, oval scales. They then had to test prototypes, including accelerated life testing, to ensure they weren't introducing any long-term reliability or durability issues, or creating any manufacturing problems. The v2 scheme had proven itself reliable, robust, and durable for some years with their traditional scales. My take on the design change - with the Evolution line introduction that apparently occurred in 2004 (not in 2007 as I had guessed earlier) - is that it was done to facilitate and accommodate the new evolution scales with their 3-D sculpted kidney outline. My best guess is the v2 scales mounting scheme was not mechanically feasible for the new evolution scales.

I've done reverse engineering of mechanical and electronics manufacturing processes used to build competitors' products, including the most likely sequence (completely legal to perform). They used at least three basic steps to make the v2 outer liners. Doing this in a single punch and die operation is not feasible:

• Punch and die stamp sheet aluminum (alloy) to punch the liners out of sheet metal stock, including the semi-circular mounting holes for the scales, but not the rivet holes (too small for punch and die).
• Drill four rivet holes (in one operation that drills all four holes simultaneously; relative hole locations are more precise). Easier to do this while the liners are still flat before the next step.
• Stamp the liners to raise the round centers between the semi-circular holes (sometimes called dimples, but these are large ones).

Consider conversion of this and the outer liners for a v3 scales mounting scheme that uses the rivet heads. Since the first operation creates the outer liner from sheet stock, it's logical they would have retained the portion of the punch and die cutting the semi-circular holes for v2 scales until they were ready with the v3 scales. They could eliminate that portion of the punch and die at their convenience later. As a result there would have some pile of them on hand (stockpiled) with v2 mounting holes when the v3 scales changeover occurred. The one step requiring coordination with changeover to v3 scales on the production line is elimination of the third one.

There's anecdotal evidence of this with some v3 scales knives having the semi-circular holes in the outer liners without raised centers (i.e. they're still flat). There's further anecdotal evidence of individuals trying to put v2 liners on them without success as the centers are not raised. In addition, interference from taller v3 rivet heads is likely but speculation. From what I've read about the change, the v3 scales mount to the rivet heads. It's my guess having seen the rivet heads on this one (a v2) that although cylindrical they don't stand tall enough to mount scales to them effectively. There are four rivets in Wenger's 85mm (with back layer tools) in the same general concept as Victorinox's 84mm and 91mm that have back layer tools. Three are blade and tool pivots and the fourth holds the springs.

Wenger's 2004 scales mounting design change makes sense to me. It allowed a common frame for the traditional flat oval scales or the new 3-D kidney shaped and sculpted evolution scales. In other words, the only difference between a post-2004 Classic 10 and Evolution 10 (or EvoGrip 10) is the scales. I don't believe it was possible (feasible) to make evolution scales with the v2 scales mounting scheme. Maintaining two different complete knife frames, one for evo and and the other for traditional scales introduces a parts fabrication and manufacturing build scheduling complexity that's difficult to manage well. It's much better design elegance and greatly simplifies manufacturing if the only difference is which scales are mounted on them at the end of the line.

I've not taken the scales off a v3 and won't do that just to look at them and the knife frame under them. Taking scales off and putting them back on again causes wear on the mounting points on the scales, and sometimes they don't go back on securely enough without using some adhesive to hold them on.

John

[jalind]

Great pics today as well

 

Thanks!

John

[Barry Rowland]

John, this is awesome!  I love your pics!!  Congrats on the new Woodsman....I'm going over and switching the Craftsman out for a day with mine today

[twiliter]

+1 Enjoying this thread John! 

 

[Poncho65]

Thanks!

I should add a note - and will to that posting if I still can -

Had to be careful about finding the proper version of scales for this Commander as it used the older v2 raised outer liner buttons. The newer scales after circa 2007 (??) will not work and cannot be modified to fit the mounting buttons. Likewise these scales cannot be used on the newer knives made for v3 scales mounting. There are new old stock Wenger Evolution and EvoGrip replacement scales floating about on the Internet that use v3 mounting and you can convert some with standard v3 scales to Evolution or EvoGrip models. I've got a Highlander with the v3 mounting scheme and could do it if desired to make it an Evo 11. (Already have a Wenger EvoGrip 11 Blackout and a Vic Evolution S111; don't need another one.) That conversion cannot be done with this Commander as the Evolution and EvoGrip scales won't fit the v2 mounting points (already have a Wenger Evo S101 too). The bottom line when replacing Wenger scales is even on BNIB new old stock floating around is knowing which version of scales mounting the knife was made with. Some are v2 and some are v3.

By comparison, the Victorinox knives since some point in the 1960's or so have used the same mounting scheme for their Cellidor scales on at least the 91mm, and I believe the 84mm as well. Would be surprised if this weren't the case with 74mm and 58mm also. I've never concerned myself with the age of the knife when replacing its scales with brand new ones. I've not had one dating to the 1960's with a bail and/or completely different awl shape and scales outline around it which would obviously not take current scales.

Additional note regarding Victorinox Delemont Evolution and EvoGrip:
Victorinox Evolution and EvoGrip scales will not fit on any Wenger knives as Victorinox redesigned the shape of the outer liners to match the kidney shape of the Evolution scales. Likewise, the Wenger won't fit on any Victorinox.

John

I have heard that the Wenger scales are hit or miss whether they will fit or not Wonder why in the world they would make it so hard to change scales

I don't believe there's a manufacturing variation issue in the scales or outer liners that would cause this. Such a situation would be intolerable on the factory manufacturing line. Replacement scales come from the same molds and manufacturing molding machines as the ones used in knife production. I'm wondering if what you heard - at least in large measure - is the result of people trying to put v2 traditional scales on v3 knife frames, or vice versa, trying to fit v3 scales onto v2 frames. Pictures of the two versions of scales and frames (outer liners) look like they might work, or could be made to work with minimal modification, but they won't. The two are not interchangeable, and cannot be modified to make them interchangeable. That I've gleaned from the remarks about the two mounting scheme versions elsewhere by folks who've tried it.

There had to be a compelling reason to change from the v2 mounting scheme to the v3 scheme. It incurred a cost in changing their manufacturing to implement it, not the least of which was new molds for the traditional flat, oval scales. They then had to test prototypes, including accelerated life testing, to ensure they weren't introducing any long-term reliability or durability issues, or creating any manufacturing problems. The v2 scheme had proven itself reliable, robust, and durable for some years with their traditional scales. My take on the design change - with the Evolution line introduction that apparently occurred in 2004 (not in 2007 as I had guessed earlier) - is that it was done to facilitate and accommodate the new evolution scales with their 3-D sculpted kidney outline. My best guess is the v2 scales mounting scheme was not mechanically feasible for the new evolution scales.

I've done reverse engineering of mechanical and electronics manufacturing processes used to build competitors' products, including the most likely sequence (completely legal to perform). They used at least three basic steps to make the v2 outer liners. Doing this in a single punch and die operation is not feasible:

• Punch and die stamp sheet aluminum (alloy) to punch the liners out of sheet metal stock, including the semi-circular mounting holes for the scales, but not the rivet holes (too small for punch and die).
• Drill four rivet holes (in one operation that drills all four holes simultaneously; relative hole locations are more precise). Easier to do this while the liners are still flat before the next step.
• Stamp the liners to raise the round centers between the semi-circular holes (sometimes called dimples, but these are large ones).

Consider conversion of this and the outer liners for a v3 scales mounting scheme that uses the rivet heads. Since the first operation creates the outer liner from sheet stock, it's logical they would have retained the portion of the punch and die cutting the semi-circular holes for v2 scales until they were ready with the v3 scales. They could eliminate that portion of the punch and die at their convenience later. As a result there would have some pile of them on hand (stockpiled) with v2 mounting holes when the v3 scales changeover occurred. The one step requiring coordination with changeover to v3 scales on the production line is elimination of the third one.

There's anecdotal evidence of this with some v3 scales knives having the semi-circular holes in the outer liners without raised centers (i.e. they're still flat). There's further anecdotal evidence of individuals trying to put v2 liners on them without success as the centers are not raised. In addition, interference from taller v3 rivet heads is likely but speculation. From what I've read about the change, the v3 scales mount to the rivet heads. It's my guess having seen the rivet heads on this one (a v2) that although cylindrical they don't stand tall enough to mount scales to them effectively. There are four rivets in Wenger's 85mm (with back layer tools) in the same general concept as Victorinox's 84mm and 91mm that have back layer tools. Three are blade and tool pivots and the fourth holds the springs.

Wenger's 2004 scales mounting design change makes sense to me. It allowed a common frame for the traditional flat oval scales or the new 3-D kidney shaped and sculpted evolution scales. In other words, the only difference between a post-2004 Classic 10 and Evolution 10 (or EvoGrip 10) is the scales. I don't believe it was possible (feasible) to make evolution scales with the v2 scales mounting scheme. Maintaining two different complete knife frames, one for evo and and the other for traditional scales introduces a parts fabrication and manufacturing build scheduling complexity that's difficult to manage well. It's much better design elegance and greatly simplifies manufacturing if the only difference is which scales are mounted on them at the end of the line.

I've not taken the scales off a v3 and won't do that just to look at them and the knife frame under them. Taking scales off and putting them back on again causes wear on the mounting points on the scales, and sometimes they don't go back on securely enough without using some adhesive to hold them on.

John

Good bit of info that I can see you have been doing some homework on the matter

[jalind]

Discontinued Challenge Day 23
Victorinox 91mm Can Key Deluxe Tinker

This one completes the family of all four Tinker models, all with a round Can Key Phillips driver. The Deluxe Tinker adds two layers to the Tinker with scissors and pliers, making it most versatile of the Tinker, albeit largest with four layers, the pliers layer being a little wider than the other layers. This one has the wider pliers handle, but not the crimper. Has a sewing eye in the awl and a 90 degree stop on the cap lifter. Doesn't have the hook under the scissors, which have a screw (versus a rivet) and no spring follower groove (the spring also has a flat end). Keyring is on the spacer in the blade layer, and the large blade has a 2.4mm tang thickness.



While there's a hint of the slot in the Phillips above, this photo clearly shows it. I replaced the original red scales instead of refurbishing them with these black ones.



 
In what would have been a very uneventful day for this SAK, USPS delivered a couple more packages. The first one was a letter envelope that had more than a letter inside. The small blade made quick work of the envelope flap.



Inside was what I had suspected it would be, a heavy web nylon Mini Maglite belt pouch without flap.



I've got an incandescent (Xenon) Mini Maglite which these were originally made for and it fits perfectly. As a side note, many folks don't know that all models of the LED Mini Maglite are longer than the inacandescent, and not by just a little. The incandescent comes right to the top of the belt looop. The LED (and I have one) is 7/8 inch longer and extends above the belt loop by nearly an inch. Didn't buy it for a Mini Maglite (LED or incandescent). Notice the single layer Sentinel Plus lying next to it.



Been having trouble finding an appropriate carrying sheath or pouch for this one. It's much too thin for all of Victorinox's suitably long pouches and rattles around inside them. It's not as long as an incandescent Mini Maglite but this might be the solution. Looks like it's long enough for it to fit nearly completely inside.



Now for the real test. As I suspected, it fits like it was made for the Sentinel with some snugness that won't allow it to fall out but not unduly tight either.



 
That idea worked. On to the next package; this one a box. Yes, there's a tear strip, but why ruin a box that could be repurposed if the flap with adhesive can be lifted without undue damage. I tamper with the tamper proof paper tape. It's more fun to cut it open with the SAK anyway.

BTW, if you want to seal a box or envelope and make surreptitious tampering difficult, seal it with glued paper tape around all seams and edges, the kind that requires water to activate the glue. Then sign across the edges of the tape. Nearly impossible to tamper with it without leaving clear evidence of it.



Inside is another Maglite pouch, this one with a flap. However, it doesn't quite look like the one I expected, and the labeling states "MAG-TAC LED" which is a different line of compact flashlights made by Maglite.



Looks like it's the right size for a Mini Maglite, so I'll open it and see if it fits OK. Instead of using the small blade like a box cutter to get through the heat sealed clamshell bubble pack, the Deluxe Tinker's scissors are perfect for the task of cutting around the edge to get it open. Once the edge is removed, I can pull the back out of the front without any trouble.



Next to the pouch with flap made for an incandescent Mini Maglite, it looks nearly the same size.



Now for the test. As I suspected looking at it in the packaging, the incandescent Mini Maglite just fits. It's not that snug around the barrel, but that's OK as the pouch with flap Maglilte makes specifically for it isn't that snug around the barrel either. Laid out here are the Mini Maglite in a new, very heavy duty pouch, the 111mm single-layer Sentinel Plus in a sheath that it fits as if it were made for it, and a Victorinox 2xAA LED flashlight that's close enough in length and diameter to an incandescent Mini Maglite that it fits in the Maglite pouch as if it were made for it.



Nothing that dramatic for the Deluxe Tinker and no Can Key cans to tackle today, but did well with some interchangeability among several Maglite pouches, and finally finding a sheath suitable for the 111mm Sentinel Plus.

 

John

[Barry Rowland]

  Great day with the Deluxe Tinker and one great looking knife sir!!

[Poncho65]

Great day with the Deluxe Tinker and one great looking knife sir!!

+1 Great pics and write-up John

 

[jalind]

Discontinued Challenge Day 24
Victorinox 93mm '05 Model 1961 Soldier

The Victorinox Model 1961 Soldier is the knife issued to Swiss enlisted soldiers from 1962 through 2008. It replaced the Model 1951 which was a revision of the original Model 1890 Soldier retaining the same concept, tool set and design. The Model 1961 was a complete departure from the knives Victorinox (and Wenger) had been making for the Swiss Army for 70 years. The Model 1961 Solder was patterned after the U.S. MIL-K-818 developed circa 1944 during WWII. The MIL-K-818 was designed to be inexpensive and easy to make quickly by the millions. It served its purpose and the U.S. Government continued to procure them into the 1990's, although they were never an individual issue item, but a discretionary supply item, and a part of certain sets and kits for squads and teams. The Model 1961 Soldier, by comparison, is a sturdier, more durable, and substantially higher precision knife. The primary reason for the Swiss Army's Soldier utility knife was their standard infantry rifle requiring a flat tip screwdriver for disassembly and reassembly. The awl allowed cleaning out ports, crevices, etc. This continued through the evolution of their rifle for decades. The year of manufacture is stamped on the tang. This one was made in 2005 and I've little doubt it was never issued to a Swiss soldier as it was part of a special build with the blade etched with Carl Elsener Jr'.s signature ("Charles Elsener"), the great-grandson of Victorinox's founder, Karl Elsener. I do not know what made the year 2005 special. It was one of two years with a limited number of Model 1961 reserved as a special build. The other was 2008 to commemorate the last of the Model 1961 Soldier knives being made.



Today was very preoccupied with personal affairs, and thus there wasn't too much opportunity to use this magnificent SAK. Very early this morning, though, found SAK and Coffee activity, in the continuing saga (aka Soap Opera) of Mags' Cthu-boat crew, and my small population of LEGO miniatures.
Today, Fire Chief Sparks Blaise, Police Commissioner Phil MacOffers and Nurse Fanny Payne are gathered around the coffee machine with C3, the barrista, chatting away again with small talk again. Phil is still enamored with his Pioneer X, perhaps becoming eligible for the SAKMC. Would be wise to wait a little as he's still in a honeymoon with it. I shared my '05 Soldier with him his first word was: "Awlsome!" His Pioneer X with the scissors is also quite impressive. Chief Blaise has been getting envious of it.



(The Cthu-Boat had just delivered a load of bananas purchased for some prisoners Commissioner MacOffers has had locked up for a number of days now. They've been on a hunger strike demanding bananas.)

While they're occupied with gossip at the coffee machine with C3, the barrista, Bank President Semour Duckets (also the Maytag Repairman) smuggles the bananas into the Gray Bar Hotel & Spa under the guise of having to fix the toilet plumbing. He's been sympathetic with their hunger strike. There is great celebration as Stuart and Kevin begin ravenously consuming bananas. Bob, always doting on his small stuffed friend, attempts to give Tim a banana before consuming one himself, while safely stashing the rest of the bunch on his head. The guard on duty is one of MacOffer's deputies and he is none too happy to discover bananas were somehow smuggled in on his watch. He knows he's going to be in deep trouble if his boss, Phil, discovers this so he covers it up as if it never occurred.



(The Cthu-Boat crew had a grand party after receiving the money and completing the banana delivery. They went to a local discotheque and danced until exhausted. Nurse Fanny Payne has had an intense crush on Medical Bill, the Cthu-Boat's medical officer, and allegedly this attraction has been mutual. Fanny, however, has been jealous of Pansy Bjorn, the Cthu-Boat's Security Officer and her 24/7 proximity to Medical Bill.)

In the meantime, Nurse Fanny Payne discovers Medical Bill went to the disco and not only didn't take her along, he was seen dancing with Ms. Pansy. She is just devastated and is sobbing hysterically on Chief Blaise's and Commissioner MacOffers' shoulders. Both Blaise and MacOffers only comfort is, "We tried to warn you! Told you so!!", which only increases the intensity of the hysterical crying.



(A strange creature has been lurking about for some days now, staying in the shadows to eavesdrop and observe, for now.)


The strange creature keeps lurking in the background, eavesdropping and taking in all that's happening.

That was my piece of today's episode, with the '05 Model 1961 Soldier in the first scene. I haven't even thought of tomorrow's yet. Coming down near the end with less than a week to go now!

John

[jalind]

Discontinued Challenge Day 25
Wenger 84mm Commander

This is a twin, including corporate logo markings, of the Commander I converted to a Classic 10 with new scales plus T&T. The Commander doesn't have T&T. It's a cousin of the Victorinox Spartan, although its Victorinox direct equivalent is the 85mm Sportsman in size and tool set as both have a nail file with pointed nail cleaner tip in place of a small blade. The Commander is slim and quite compact, making it very pocket friendly. I could tolerate the Wenger awl, and T&T, but really miss the small tip driver on the end of the can opener. Nevertheless, it's a fine SAK.



As much as I'd like to document the day's adventures with it, there aren't any to speak of. Went to Meijer (similar to Target) grocery and Sam's Club, also for a few grocery items. Egad, did I ever pick the wrong day! The U.S. Thanksgiving is Thursday and both stores were packed. The first clue was about 175% of the normal number of vehicles in the parking lots and not very many shopping carts (aka "buggies" south of the Mason Dixon Line, and "trolleys" Down Under and across the smaller pond in the Old World). Snagged one out of the parking lot on the way in knowing there might not be any available inside the stores. The Meijer is open 24/7. Should have gone there at 8 AM and hit the Sam's Club at 9AM just as they opened (they're next door to each other). Personal matters continue as well, occupying much of my time at present.

John

[jalind]

Discontinued Challenge Day 26
Victorinox 91mm Craftsman

One layer less than the discontinued Champion (Plus) and two fewer than the SwissChamp, the Craftsman is a 6-layer featuring both the wood saw and metal saw with crosscut file. In its last version, it also had both pliers and scissors, and the pliers are about 1-1/2 the thickness of a normal layer. There was an earlier version of the Craftsman prior to the introduction of pliers that has a fish scaler. The fish scaler was dropped in the late 1970's when the pliers were introduced. The result is a SAK slightly wider than other 6-layer models (that don't have pliers). The last version of the Craftsman has a rich back layer with five tools: #2 Phillips, fine flat tip, chisel, multi-purpose hook, and awl. "Craftsman" was a very appropriate name for this overall tool set. Overshadowed by the now discontinued Champion and SwissChamp, it was ultimately pushed aside and retired. Nevertheless, it has some popularity with its 6 layers not being as wide or heavy as the 8 layer SwissChamp.


The Craftsman has been discontinued for a number of years, and I don't believe the silver tech scales had been created yet. This one came with the typical red scales and I replaced them with the silver tech thinking them very appropriate for the Craftsman tool set. The rest of this will show the differences between scales mounting schemes used by Victorinox and Wenger.

These are the scales this Craftsman came with BNIB. I've saved them in the event I want to restore it to original factory condition. The Victorinox 91mm and 84mm Cellidor scales have used the two end pivot rivets and spring rivet for mounting. The arrows point to the cups in the scales that friction fit over those rivets that have very slightly flanged cylindrical sleeves on them.



The rivet heads with sleeves are shown in this photo of a different model with its scales removed. This mounting scheme has been common across all 91mm SAKs since some time in the late 1960's or early 1970's when the very old awl and bail were discontinued (which wasn't done to all models at the same time). An 84mm would look very similar, and if it has back layer tools, it will have the fourth rivet without a sleeve as this one does.



By comparison, the v2 scales on a Wenger do not mount to the rivets, they mount to large raised dimples that have semicircular holes cut out around a portion of their perimeters. This shows the 85mm scales removed from the Wenger Commander (without T&T slots). There is a lip around the inside of the cup that catches on the riased dimples.



The matching dimples on the outer liners are shown in this photo, and they stand proud above the surface of the outer liner to capture the lip on the cups in the scales that snap onto them. Note that the rivets have cylindrical heads, but they do not stand that proud from the liners and there are cups molded into the scales to accommodate them; there is no friction fit onto the rivet heads.



One can identify whether a traditional scales Wenger has v2 or v3 scales by looking inside the knife at the outer liners. The following is a photo of a Commander with v2 scales. The raised dimples with semicircular cutouts and the scales snapped onto them can be seen on the inside of the outer liners. The third one is to the left of the other two, barely visible in the photo as it's in deep shadow.



By contrast, a Wenger with v3 scales will not have this. The scales will look flat and smooth from the inside of the knife. The following is a Highlander with traditional v3 scales (post-2004). There are no dimples or cutouts.



In getting replacement scales for the 85mm Wenger, I've used this to identify which version of scales I need. As stated previously, v2 and v3 scales are not interchangeable on a v2 or v3 knife frame. The Wenger Evolution and EvoGrip scales are all v3.

Also important:
The current Victorinox Delemont Evolution and EvoGrip scales are not interchangeable with the Wenger, or the Wenger frame. The outer liners were completely changed when Victorinox converted the former Wenger Evolution to scales with Victorinox logos and Victorinox T&T slots.

As a footnote, I used a bench magnifier with built in ringlight to make most of these photos. The technique is called "afocal projection" as the camera lens is left on the camera, and it's focused on the virtual image projected by the magnifier, just as your eye would focus on it when viewing through the magnifier. The same technique can be used with microscopes, eye loupes, and telescopes. This is different from "eyepiece projection" which keeps the telescope or microscope eyepiece, but removes the camera lens, or "prime focus" which removes both eyepiece and camera lens, using only the telescope's (or microscope's) objective lens groups. For the afocal projection in these, I used a Sony DSC-RX100 compact with Carl Zeiss vario-Sonnar as its small size is easier to handle doing this versus the larger Sony NEX-7.



John

[glenfiddich1983]

Inside are sets of Wenger toothpicks and tweezers for the large knives that require angled ends as the slots for them are off-center. I had been expecting these. The ones in this conversion were borrowed from a second Evolution 63 I've had stored. These were delayed by a week and a T&T set will replace the borrowed ones. The rest will go into the bin of SAK spare and repair parts that includes split rings, scissors springs, T&T sets, etc. Losing a toothpick or tweezers hasn't happened in a long time, nor has a Victorinox scissors spring broken in quite a few years. T&T loss has almost occurred a number of times, the toothpick in particular.

Ah, that looks familiar! Wild Gear Deals 
I also ordered from them. Even with the shipping cost all the way from the US to Europe they are AFAIK the cheapest if you combine a few packs of toothpicks, tweezers, split rings and corkscrew-miniscrewdrivers and scissor springs in one shipping 

[jalind]

Inside are sets of Wenger toothpicks and tweezers for the large knives that require angled ends as the slots for them are off-center. I had been expecting these. The ones in this conversion were borrowed from a second Evolution 63 I've had stored. These were delayed by a week and a T&T set will replace the borrowed ones. The rest will go into the bin of SAK spare and repair parts that includes split rings, scissors springs, T&T sets, etc. Losing a toothpick or tweezers hasn't happened in a long time, nor has a Victorinox scissors spring broken in quite a few years. T&T loss has almost occurred a number of times, the toothpick in particular.

Ah, that looks familiar! Wild Gear Deals 
I also ordered from them. Even with the shipping cost all the way from the US to Europe they are AFAIK the cheapest if you combine a few packs of toothpicks, tweezers, split rings and corkscrew-miniscrewdrivers and scissor springs in one shipping 

Yes . . . that's who they are. As soon as I sent the photos of the Victorinox T&T I got an immediate "oops!" reply and they sent the Wenger T&T that day. They're among the excellent sources for the parts bits you mentioned.

John