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Us Army SAK 3714

Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,404
Us Army SAK
« on: November 24, 2016, 05:12:38 AM »
So a little while back I asked what I missed while i was off ending my Army career.

Someone said something about a US Army SAK being released.

Was not able to find anything about this with the Google machine.

So SAK eggspurts whats the deal?

Leatherman:
Wave, Surge, Skeletool, PST I,  Squirt S4, Micra, Rebar,

Victorinox:
Explorer, Super Tinker, CyberTool, Yeoman, Champion Plus, Red Shield Syph Custom, Pioneer, Ranger, Workchamp, Classic, Vagabond, Swisschamp, OH GAK

Wenger:
Handyman, Pocket Tool Chest

Spyderco:
Southard, Dragonfly 2, Para Military 2, Native Tan, Sage 3, Endura, Delica, Manix 2, Military
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,613
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2016, 05:32:48 AM »
Here is some info on the US Combat Utility Knife...

http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=68315

Not an official issue to the US Army, but can be acquired if personnel of Mil, LE and Fed agencies desire...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No Life Club Posts: 2,875
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2016, 05:34:06 AM »
That was me who made mention , Harley  :tu:

But I know nothin.............
I heard from Jayaman when he was talking about going to: IndoDefence 2016
pics of the knife and of others from other countries ---- link:
http://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,21658.20940.html

and later Coloswiss posted this:
Just got a reply from the Windros Group on that US military knife…

"The KCU was developed for the US military.
Sales are restricted to Law Enforcement, Military and Federal Agencies personnel.
Thank you"









HOPE THIS HELPS  :cheers:

***CLICK on my pics to see actual sized photo :)
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,613
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2016, 05:35:27 AM »
Some picture of it I took during Indodefence 2016 at the Victorinox booth...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No Life Club Posts: 2,875
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2016, 05:41:53 AM »
 8) :multi:

hehehe  i see we posted at same time! NICE!

***CLICK on my pics to see actual sized photo :)
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,613
Us Army SAK
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2016, 05:56:54 AM »
8) :multi:

hehehe  i see we posted at same time! NICE!

Hahaha... :cheers: :drink: :SAKnight:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 05:58:18 AM by jaya_man »
No Life Club Posts: 1,670
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2016, 06:52:13 AM »
This "U.S." marked Trekker reminds me more and more of all the allegedly "Official" SAR and Navy Seal watches, that are neither issued nor used by USAF, USN and USCG Search and Rescue personnel (for downed pilot extraction) or U.S. Navy Seals. There's much hoopla among watch collectors about military watches when the reality among U.S. service personnel is the actual ones procured by the U.S. government and issued to a handful of personnel on an as-needed basis are small, cheap, very simple and very innocuous timepieces. The latest ones I've seen (around for over 20 years now) have plastic cases, the subdued sandblasted stainless steel ones having been dropped since the 1980's.

The U.S. hasn't had a "military" folding knife in its inventory for military personnel use since the MIL-K-818E (I think it was the "E" revision) was dropped from the inventory in the 1990's. Even it was never a "standard issue" to military personnel, but was primarily a part of the tools and equipment contained in several different sets, the most notable of which was the infantry platoon demolition set. AFAIK, there hasn't been one in the inventory since then. Obviously the bayonet has been around in one form or another since the Continental Army was created by the Second Continental Congress on June 14, 1775. Unlike a number of other armies around the world, AFAIK there never, ever has been a standard issue utility pocket knife for the U.S. Army, USMC, USN, USAF or USCG. Even the MIL-K-818 that was created in 1944 during WWII was never a standard issue item in all its years in the inventory, but a discretionary one that could be requisitioned for specific purposes.

Just because the LLC trying to market these things to government agencies has a CAGE code and a NSN for it does NOT mean that there is even one of them anywhere in the GSA supply system, or that DLA (Defense Logistics Agency) has bought a single one of these, or that a single one of them has been issued by the U.S. Government a single uniformed service person (i.e. soldier, sailor, airman, marine or coast guardsman). It's my considered opinion, having worked in and around U.S. Army logistics that it's all marketing hype by the guys trying to sell them, and that's VERY commonplace with many companies trying to sell all manner of "stuff" to the U.S. military.

Edit:
Sales of individual clothing and equipment items like this to the U.S. Government for the military services is all about numbers. The authorized strength of the U.S. Army in 2014 was just over half a million, and that's only active duty. It does not include U.S. Army Reserve or Army National Guard. If you could convince Congress to buy every active duty soldier their very own Trekker, and just the active duty ones, you'd sell a half million of them. At $60 apiece, assuming a 100% markup above cost, you'd make $15 Million profit on active duty U.S. Army alone. Get it into the USMC (active duty only) as they wouldn't want to be left behind the door without theirs, and that's 190k marines, and $5.7 Million more in pure profit. All for a couple guys who formed a LLC and have a small rented office. The knife is a pass-through and they've got their hands out collecting a fee like a toll booth on a toll highway for every one that passes through them. They provide nearly zero "value added" to the knife. All they're doing is eliminating the need for Victorinox to manage a potential U.S. Government contract. If any one of the principals in the LLC is a minority, they get preferential treatment above and beyond he preferential treatment and assistance they're already accorded as a "Small Business." The general public is not aware of things like this unless they're directly involved in U.S. Government contracts.

John
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 08:50:36 AM by jalind »

John
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 6,243 Cats have pocket knives of their own
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2016, 10:00:29 AM »
^^  8) :salute:  ^^

Omnia vincit amor. Vae victis.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,404
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2016, 06:18:19 PM »
Hmm not bad but I was kinda hoping for a 91mm.

Leatherman:
Wave, Surge, Skeletool, PST I,  Squirt S4, Micra, Rebar,

Victorinox:
Explorer, Super Tinker, CyberTool, Yeoman, Champion Plus, Red Shield Syph Custom, Pioneer, Ranger, Workchamp, Classic, Vagabond, Swisschamp, OH GAK

Wenger:
Handyman, Pocket Tool Chest

Spyderco:
Southard, Dragonfly 2, Para Military 2, Native Tan, Sage 3, Endura, Delica, Manix 2, Military
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,404
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2016, 06:20:30 PM »
This "U.S." marked Trekker reminds me more and more of all the allegedly "Official" SAR and Navy Seal watches, that are neither issued nor used by USAF, USN and USCG Search and Rescue personnel (for downed pilot extraction) or U.S. Navy Seals. There's much hoopla among watch collectors about military watches when the reality among U.S. service personnel is the actual ones procured by the U.S. government and issued to a handful of personnel on an as-needed basis are small, cheap, very simple and very innocuous timepieces. The latest ones I've seen (around for over 20 years now) have plastic cases, the subdued sandblasted stainless steel ones having been dropped since the 1980's.

The U.S. hasn't had a "military" folding knife in its inventory for military personnel use since the MIL-K-818E (I think it was the "E" revision) was dropped from the inventory in the 1990's. Even it was never a "standard issue" to military personnel, but was primarily a part of the tools and equipment contained in several different sets, the most notable of which was the infantry platoon demolition set. AFAIK, there hasn't been one in the inventory since then. Obviously the bayonet has been around in one form or another since the Continental Army was created by the Second Continental Congress on June 14, 1775. Unlike a number of other armies around the world, AFAIK there never, ever has been a standard issue utility pocket knife for the U.S. Army, USMC, USN, USAF or USCG. Even the MIL-K-818 that was created in 1944 during WWII was never a standard issue item in all its years in the inventory, but a discretionary one that could be requisitioned for specific purposes.

Just because the LLC trying to market these things to government agencies has a CAGE code and a NSN for it does NOT mean that there is even one of them anywhere in the GSA supply system, or that DLA (Defense Logistics Agency) has bought a single one of these, or that a single one of them has been issued by the U.S. Government a single uniformed service person (i.e. soldier, sailor, airman, marine or coast guardsman). It's my considered opinion, having worked in and around U.S. Army logistics that it's all marketing hype by the guys trying to sell them, and that's VERY commonplace with many companies trying to sell all manner of "stuff" to the U.S. military.

Edit:
Sales of individual clothing and equipment items like this to the U.S. Government for the military services is all about numbers. The authorized strength of the U.S. Army in 2014 was just over half a million, and that's only active duty. It does not include U.S. Army Reserve or Army National Guard. If you could convince Congress to buy every active duty soldier their very own Trekker, and just the active duty ones, you'd sell a half million of them. At $60 apiece, assuming a 100% markup above cost, you'd make $15 Million profit on active duty U.S. Army alone. Get it into the USMC (active duty only) as they wouldn't want to be left behind the door without theirs, and that's 190k marines, and $5.7 Million more in pure profit. All for a couple guys who formed a LLC and have a small rented office. The knife is a pass-through and they've got their hands out collecting a fee like a toll booth on a toll highway for every one that passes through them. They provide nearly zero "value added" to the knife. All they're doing is eliminating the need for Victorinox to manage a potential U.S. Government contract. If any one of the principals in the LLC is a minority, they get preferential treatment above and beyond he preferential treatment and assistance they're already accorded as a "Small Business." The general public is not aware of things like this unless they're directly involved in U.S. Government contracts.

John

Excellent information here.

Never seen a pocket knife issued in my 21 years in the US Army. Although we did get Gerber and Leatherman multi tools issued to us at various times. Usually right before a combat deployment.

Leatherman:
Wave, Surge, Skeletool, PST I,  Squirt S4, Micra, Rebar,

Victorinox:
Explorer, Super Tinker, CyberTool, Yeoman, Champion Plus, Red Shield Syph Custom, Pioneer, Ranger, Workchamp, Classic, Vagabond, Swisschamp, OH GAK

Wenger:
Handyman, Pocket Tool Chest

Spyderco:
Southard, Dragonfly 2, Para Military 2, Native Tan, Sage 3, Endura, Delica, Manix 2, Military
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 6,821
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2016, 10:01:13 PM »
During WWII the US military issued millions of pocket knives of one kind or another. Some were marked; many were straight commercial products. Not every one was issued a knife (not every one was issued a bayonet), but they were definitely in the supply chain. In addition to the stainless Camillus, other 4-blade utility knives, electricians knives, sailors knives, and pilots knives were in wide-spread use.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 10:07:51 PM by ColoSwiss »
No Life Club Posts: 3,904
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2016, 03:08:49 AM »
Australian Navy SAK?

How the hell do I not know about this?

Does anyone have any info on it?


Jaya, do you have a pic that shows the writing on the side of it?  (The NSN appears to be rendered as a series of Xs, which is not particularly useful for the keen collector....

And that blue "Muster" one with the proper marlin spike....

« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 03:15:25 AM by Sea Monster »
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,613
Us Army SAK
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2016, 03:14:29 AM »
Australian Navy SAK?

How the hell do I not know about this?

Does anyone have any info on it?


Jaya, do you have a pic that shows the writing on the side of it?  (The NSN appears to be rendered as a series of Xs, which is not particularly useful for the keen collector....)
I'm afraid I don't... Sorry 🏻️


Looks like its a Helmsman...
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 03:16:03 AM by jaya_man »
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,613
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2016, 03:26:35 AM »
The said knife has Shelham markings on it... Isn't Shelham a knife producer?
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,613
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2016, 03:28:38 AM »
The blue one with a marlin spike is a prototype for one of their tenders...
No Life Club Posts: 3,330
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2016, 04:07:24 AM »
Some picture of it I took during Indodefence 2016 at the Victorinox booth...

(Image removed from quote.)(Image removed from quote.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That curved marlinspike on the blue handled one is very interesting.  New tool?
No Life Club Posts: 1,240
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2016, 04:30:10 AM »
Is there a secondary market for the USA model?

Cheers

Lurking with a large collection of sharp knives!
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,404
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2016, 05:02:17 AM »
During WWII the US military issued millions of pocket knives of one kind or another. Some were marked; many were straight commercial products. Not every one was issued a knife (not every one was issued a bayonet), but they were definitely in the supply chain. In addition to the stainless Camillus, other 4-blade utility knives, electricians knives, sailors knives, and pilots knives were in wide-spread use.

Jeez how old do you think I am?

Leatherman:
Wave, Surge, Skeletool, PST I,  Squirt S4, Micra, Rebar,

Victorinox:
Explorer, Super Tinker, CyberTool, Yeoman, Champion Plus, Red Shield Syph Custom, Pioneer, Ranger, Workchamp, Classic, Vagabond, Swisschamp, OH GAK

Wenger:
Handyman, Pocket Tool Chest

Spyderco:
Southard, Dragonfly 2, Para Military 2, Native Tan, Sage 3, Endura, Delica, Manix 2, Military
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,613
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2016, 05:29:27 AM »
Some picture of it I took during Indodefence 2016 at the Victorinox booth...

(Image removed from quote.)(Image removed from quote.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That curved marlinspike on the blue handled one is very interesting.  New tool?
Must be a specialized tool as per tender requirements of the said navy
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,613
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2016, 05:31:08 AM »
Is there a secondary market for the USA model?

Cheers
A couple of my friends was able to get hold of it.. But I don't know where they got it from...

A member in this forum has one as well...
Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,061 mmmmm SAKrelicious
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2016, 11:43:34 AM »
During WWII the US military issued millions of pocket knives of one kind or another. Some were marked; many were straight commercial products. Not every one was issued a knife (not every one was issued a bayonet), but they were definitely in the supply chain. In addition to the stainless Camillus, other 4-blade utility knives, electricians knives, sailors knives, and pilots knives were in wide-spread use.

Jeez how old do you think I am?
Judging by your posts, not very old at all  :D

'Use the force Harry' - Gandalf

'Derail a thread and we'll come at you like a block of cheese'. Captain Mags and Sergeant Fuzzbucket of the Anti Derai.... mmmmmmm cheese
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 17,081 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2016, 01:38:33 PM »
 :rofl: >:D



The cantankerous but occasionally useful member, formally known as 50ft-trad
No Life Club Posts: 1,670
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2016, 02:21:52 PM »
Is there a secondary market for the USA model?

Cheers
A couple of my friends was able to get hold of it.. But I don't know where they got it from...

A member in this forum has one as well...

There is no secondary market in the U.S. A couple guys created a small LLC (Limited Liability Company) in Pennsylvania with exclusive distributorship of them from Victorinox. They are trying to convince the U.S. Government to buy them and will not sell to individuals (inquiries have already been made by others). As part of their marketing strategy they've made a couple very special offers at a couple of conventions this year for U.S. military personnel to buy one. One of them was the 2016 AUSA Annual Meeting at which AUSA members in attendance could buy them there in person (i.e. you had to be there and buy one there). AUSA is the Association of the U.S. Army, a private non-profit organization with membership dues for active, reserve and Nat'l Guard U.S. Army personnel. I knew about them during my career, was barraged with stuff by mail to join periodically, but never knew anyone who was a member. This was a common marketing ploy. Get them into the hands of some soldiers, one or more of whom might just be a procurement decision maker, or could bend the ear of a decision-maker. Also gets a few out there into the hands of some soldiers where others will see them and start asking about them. I don't know what they're thinking attempting to market them in that manner. It's not the way to convince the U.S. Government to buy any with any effectiveness.

Equipment like these knives, if contemplated for individual soldier issue, are exhaustively tested by Natick Laboratories, AKA the U.S. Army Soldier Systems Center before they're procured for issue. The SSC tests and evaluates just about everything an individual soldier uses before it's procured and deployed. The Air Force and Marine Corps coattail on nearly all of their research and development. Not certain how much the U.S. Navy or Coast Guard makes use of their testing and evaluation. This includes uniforms, boots, load bearing equipment (formerly LBE, superseded by current MOLLE), helmets, boots, parachutes, rations, tentage, and anything else an individual soldier would wear, carry, live in, or use individually. General utility knives like the Trekker would be tested and evaluated only after there is a perceived need, potential or future, for soldiers to have a general purpose utility knife like the Victorinox Trekker. If they did, they would be testing and evaluating no less than several candidates from different manufacturers. With extremely rare exception, it's a methodical and lengthy process.

If you're thinking these are "official issue" to U.S. soldiers or marines, or are about to be, they're not. I get visions a few of these, just like other alleged U.S. military issue stuff, will end up on ePrey being sold as super-ultra-rare U.S. military knives, duping the unsuspecting into believing they're "official issue". Numerous knives, watches and other gear are sold as "official" U.S. military when they're not. The following is an excellent short blog article written several years ago about knives used by U.S. Special Ops personnel, one of the hot topics among survivalists and "preppers" (i.e. the dudes seriously preparing for the imminent Zombie - or other - Apocalypse):

http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com/archives/1633

The reality is U.S. military generally bring their own personal knives to the party and the only "official" one they might carry and use would be a bayonet, and that's if they're issued out with their individual weapons. I continued to carry my own personal M7 bayonet (purchased from Ontario Knife Company distributor) after the M9 was deployed. My rank allowed me to get away with that.

John

John
No Life Club Posts: 1,240
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2016, 05:45:46 PM »
Trying to get the Mil contract is worthwhile, but I hope Vics contract with the PA jokers has some outs. I'd love for the knife to hit the market one day.

Lurking with a large collection of sharp knives!
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 6,821
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2016, 10:28:14 PM »
During WWII the US military issued millions of pocket knives of one kind or another. Some were marked; many were straight commercial products. Not every one was issued a knife (not every one was issued a bayonet), but they were definitely in the supply chain. In addition to the stainless Camillus, other 4-blade utility knives, electricians knives, sailors knives, and pilots knives were in wide-spread use.

Jeez how old do you think I am?

I heard you were digging latrines for Gen. Pershing.     :think:
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,060 Never gonna run around and desert the SAKs
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2016, 10:35:05 PM »
During WWII the US military issued millions of pocket knives of one kind or another. Some were marked; many were straight commercial products. Not every one was issued a knife (not every one was issued a bayonet), but they were definitely in the supply chain. In addition to the stainless Camillus, other 4-blade utility knives, electricians knives, sailors knives, and pilots knives were in wide-spread use.

Jeez how old do you think I am?

I heard you were digging latrines for Gen. Pershing.     :think:
No, he was Gen. Grant's waterboy I heard. :think:

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!
Newbie Posts: 28
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2016, 06:35:16 AM »


Victorinox went through the process to have a National Stock Number (NSN) assigned to this multitool so that it can be ordered through normal unit requisition.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,804 Smurf smash!
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2016, 10:32:27 AM »
That is pretty damn sweet, I wouldn't mind having one :drool:

"Hoarder of weirdness,
Always posting random things,
I'm AlephZero" :ninja:
No Life Club Posts: 1,670
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2016, 11:30:42 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)

Victorinox went through the process to have a National Stock Number (NSN) assigned to this multitool so that it can be ordered through normal unit requisition.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Just about anyone can get a CAGE code for their company and a NSN (NATO Stock Number) assigned to something they'd like to sell to the military if they know how to go about it. Just because it "can be ordered through normal unit requisition" doesn't mean some company or battalion supply sergeant will ever see one delivered to them. All it means is someone can fill in all the blanks on a requisition form and submit it. If the requisitioning unit (1) is not authorized to requisition the item, or (2) it's not in stock in a warehouse somewhere, they'll never see it. Failing either of those invites scrutiny. Better have a very credible story ready to justify it that doesn't set off the BS detectors ("That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!"). In addition, the cost of them would come out of the requisitioning unit's annually allocated budget, and attempted requisitions for items like this attract attention from higher levels of command as it's coming out of their budget too.

"Every soldier in my command needs a pocket knife" doesn't cut it. The rationale for such a requisition has to explain in detail why it's mission critical, why current issued equipment is insufficient, and the dire consequences of every soldier not having one. It was a misguided marketing ploy, hoping units would start ordering them to ignite a grassroots bottom-up demand for DLA to buy them. The U.S. Army's logistics system doesn't work that way, especially for items that would be issued to individual soldiers.

John
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 11:34:37 AM by jalind »

John
Newbie Posts: 28
Re: Us Army SAK
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2016, 03:54:33 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

Victorinox went through the process to have a National Stock Number (NSN) assigned to this multitool so that it can be ordered through normal unit requisition.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Just about anyone can get a CAGE code for their company and a NSN (NATO Stock Number) assigned to something they'd like to sell to the military if they know how to go about it. Just because it "can be ordered through normal unit requisition" doesn't mean some company or battalion supply sergeant will ever see one delivered to them. All it means is someone can fill in all the blanks on a requisition form and submit it. If the requisitioning unit (1) is not authorized to requisition the item, or (2) it's not in stock in a warehouse somewhere, they'll never see it. Failing either of those invites scrutiny. Better have a very credible story ready to justify it that doesn't set off the BS detectors ("That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!"). In addition, the cost of them would come out of the requisitioning unit's annually allocated budget, and attempted requisitions for items like this attract attention from higher levels of command as it's coming out of their budget too.

"Every soldier in my command needs a pocket knife" doesn't cut it. The rationale for such a requisition has to explain in detail why it's mission critical, why current issued equipment is insufficient, and the dire consequences of every soldier not having one. It was a misguided marketing ploy, hoping units would start ordering them to ignite a grassroots bottom-up demand for DLA to buy them. The U.S. Army's logistics system doesn't work that way, especially for items that would be issued to individual soldiers.

John
You are correct.  It would be great if it were standard issue but having the NSN just allows it to be ordered.

I bought mine and one for my son at AUSA.


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


 

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