Are shop classes and skilled trades disappearing?

[Whoey]

What are your thoughts on this? It seems more and more things like shop class are disappearing, and some craft based trades seem to be heading into obscurity. While discussing it with my wife who is studying philology (which some people have asked why) It seems like certain trades and degrees are no longer considered to be any help finding work so people won't study them. So what happens when we lose well studied trademen, linguists, art historians etc. Are we heading for a Wall-E/Idiocracy type scenario?

I realize this forum is full of hobbyists and craftsmen so your views are probably quite biased like my own. But I also had Home Economics(sewing/cooking), Typing, Wood shop, Metal shop, Drafting, Graphics, Electronics as well as Computing classes, and feel a portion of each has given me skills that I continue using to date, other than the ability to stand in line for 36h for the latest idevice which today's generation seem to thrive at (I'd rather wait a few months and nip in and out in 5min thanks).

[Pacu]

My high school shop classes were a joke. I had the same shop teacher i had while in middle school. The middle school was were we built stuff , learned carpentry. High school treated shop as a dumping ground for the school's criminally insane. I felt bad for the teacher as he became a babysitter for a bunch of punks who couldn't be trusted with powered equipment.

As an installer I use a mix of everything from carpentry, electrical work, framing, and anything else deemed necessary. Nothing wrong with teaching good trades these days. I give lots of respect to skilled tradesman. Concrete finishers, plumbers, electricians, cabinet makers. Welders and machinists make bank around here.

[Pacu]

They should have a class in school just on tools. Usage, maintenance, and accountability. Lose a pair of Knipex. You'll cry for days.

[Smashie]

Yes completely, in my last two years in school 1985-86 i chose 'engineering workshop practice', my O level project was to build a stationary steam engine. Oh it worked as well. Casting, lathe work, milling, hand tools, brazing the lot.

There are no workshops left at that school anymore, just and ICT space an from what I've seen of the IT abilities of school and university leavers over the last few years they might as well close those as well.

Over the last few years the number of times I've been asked to help with some pretty basic DIY made me want to insist they turned in their 'man licenses' immediately, a complete disgrace. It wasn't as if most of them didn't have even the basic tools to do the job, they had no freaking clue how to use them or where to start.

A swift kick in the posterior is required with immediate effect.

Rant over

[Steinar]

Shop classes are expensive, and both Western Europe and the US are more or less post-industrial societies. I think that makes cutting shop classes a very tempting decision. A very bad investment in the future.

Oh, and plumbers, electricians, and so on make bank here as well.

I'm all thumbs and my education is highly theoretical, but I respect expertise, whether the field is quantum chromodynamics or bricklaying or knitting a sweater. I think that's part of the problem. It seems there is little prestige in making cool stuff with your hands.   

[Smashie]

Another example, a very good friend of mine is 56 years old, he's a fabricator. for two days of the week he works on classic Bugatti's, he's the youngest person in the workshop!

This is something he's working on, his own project



The frame, fuel tank, oil tank basically everything except the power train, suspension has been made by him. It's a monster and he's justifiably proud of the work so far. It's basically an S&S (ish) harley sportster lump, with a supercharger. It was is drag bike now he's making it road legal.

[PTRSAK]

Earlier this year I spent several months looking for work.
There is a strange paradox that most employers seem happy to run with. They moan and bitch about not being able to get any skilled or experienced staff, but don't want to hire anyone old enough to have any experience or to have learnt any decent hand skills.

The job I have now is as a Biomedical Instrument Technician. They were actually advertising for a junior but I was applying for almost anything at that point.
A lot of the job is intricate fine detail work, much of which is done under an industrial microscope or at least a 10x headset. They did hire a junior, but I got a position as well because they realised that I had the background and hand skills to pick up the procedure side of things really quickly. Overhauling intricate mechanisms is pretty much the same whether it be medical equipment or a gas turbine fuel control.

Want to know how unskilled generation snowflake is? Try and find one of them who could change the oil in their car.

[Smashie]

Earlier this year I spent several months looking for work.
There is a strange paradox that most employers seem happy to run with. They moan and bitch about not being able to get any skilled or experienced staff, but don't want to hire anyone old enough to have any experience or to have learnt any decent hand skills.

The job I have now is as a Biomedical Instrument Technician. They were actually advertising for a junior but I was applying for almost anything at that point.
A lot of the job is intricate fine detail work, much of which is done under an industrial microscope or at least a 10x headset. They did hire a junior, but I got a position as well because they realised that I had the background and hand skills to pick up the procedure side of things really quickly. Overhauling intricate mechanisms is pretty much the same whether it be medical equipment or a gas turbine fuel control.

Want to know how unskilled generation snowflake is? Try and find one of them who could change the oil in their car.

You obviously had more experience than the people interviewing you and it scared them, guess what it never bothered me, I've always tried to employ smart people who I (or others) can give the minimum amount of training and supervision. Yes I paid more but they made more money and got the job done!

Don't start me on snowflakes! I'm actively undoing a large amount of what my my son is being taught in school

[ColoSwiss]

School is pretty worthless across the board any more. Most American high school students can't locate the U S on a world map, let alone any other country. No one has to learn anything any more; just feel good about themselves.

[Poncho65]

This is something I feel very strongly about  I feel that trades and trade schools should be pushed at the high school level as much as they push college related jobs We need skilled workers in all trades and that has been made more evident in the 20 years that I have been in my trade A skilled bricklayer can go most anywhere in the world and should be able to get a job I put that one part in bold as that seems to be the problem lately I did on the job training but was very fortunate to learn a wide variety of skills in my area My father was and still is a very skilled mason and we always get the harder more complicated jobs that our company gets and when I was young I soaked all that up like a sponge At times I think he thinks I know more about it than he does

I work with plenty of very good and skilled workers that don't have even a high school education though (They learned the trade as I did on the job) Some people just pick it up and some never do as I am sure it is with all things

If I had it to do over I would have went to a trades school and taken classes in many different areas because the more you know the better you are in life If my high school had pushed trades more like they do college I would have likely done this

We needs skilled trades to build buildings and we need a skilled workforce to be able to build complicated buildings like schools, university buildings, churches, jails, malls and office buildings and such

[gregozedobe]

Just because it sounds like a mob of old farts whinging about the younger generation doesn't mean it isn't true     

Being somewhat self-reliant is definitely a fading skill. and I think the current trend of relaxing educational requirements so that everyone can feel good about themselves (a.k.a. "every player wins a prize" and "There are no winners because that would mean there are losers and we can't have that !" ) means that people (and things) often don't have to meet reasonable standards anymore.

As an example, if you have a flat tyre on many modern cars these days you can't fit the spare and continue on, even if you knew how to, because there isn't one.  If the can of goop doesn't fix the problem (and often it won't) then you are stuck.

[Grant Lamontagne]

School is pretty worthless across the board any more. Most American high school students can't locate the U S on a world map, let alone any other country. No one has to learn anything any more; just feel good about themselves.

Thank you for participating in this thread.  Here is your trophy. 

As a landlord I have encountered a lot of those kids that got ribbons for showing up and I firmly believe the world is a worse place for it.  I have met kids that can't change a light bulb or reset a breaker.  I have dealt with kids that didn't understand that rent was due on the first day of each month, and that it happens about every 30 days or so.  I have met kids that didn't realize the key they got when they moved in was to the only lock they had access to on their front door.  I have had kids that didn't realize that the water company digging up the road out front of the house meant there was no water for them to take their shower mid morning before heading to late classes, or that the stack of notices of water outages that had been stuck to their doors every day for a week prior applied to them.

And all of these kids were university students.

These were humanity's best and brightest.

One idiot, who had several degrees, one of which was in space medicine, a fricking doctor for astronauts, walked into the house, noticed the giant pool of water on the floor and didn't think to call anyone or investigate the source of it.

Do I weep for the world of tomorrow?  Nope, I just hope I am long dead before I have to rely on these people.

Def

[Chako]

Oh the things I can add to this thread...but I won't. Let's just say I have seen too much.

What I will add however, in my career class, I try to push the trades as much as I can because I know there will be a big shortage of trades-folk in the near future. It is a hard sell though considering the allure of University for many parents. That and many of the newer generation do not appear to like hard work, or in attaining long term goals that might better their lot in life. It doesn't help either, that the Province has eliminated electricity and drafting, among other tech minded courses that were once offered.

[Aloha]

I wish the trades were pushed as hard as other careers in HS.  I think many of the kids who aren't scholastically adept would be interested.  My daughter is a senior and many kids have no plans to go to college.  I wonder what their plans are?  Typically its been military or law enforcement in my area for young men.  I think with all the conflicts we've been in kids are not wanting to join the military.  As far as law enforcement many agencies are looking for college educated candidates. 

 

[styx]

In my opinion yes they are disappearing. And this isn't some older trades that today get romanticized about but in reality just can't be as widespread as they used to be (smithing, stone masonry), but also the trades that are today more than needed.

Here technical schools are frowned upon by engineering collages, handymen seem to mostly be self taught, and poorly at that, and for some reason any job that has a little sweat and dirt is below us (us as a society).

[AlephZero]

I loved shop class while in comprehensive school... Mostly woodwork but also some metal. I still have most of the stuff too, a chessboard where the squares are made out of individual pieces of some dark wood I found in the shop rubbish bin and birch  and a table that will outlive me as it's basicly indestructible, solid welded frame out of 5cm square pipe and topped with 1.5cm thick film faced plywood...


But that was in the 90's, I guess the traditions are dying out in here as well 

[Whoey]

Based on some of your replies I think I stumbled on to something.

[eamo]

I live in a rural area - maybe because of that, i think trades are still valued. I'm crap at DIY but i still do most of the maintenance on my house unless it's something fairly serious.
Personally, I view a trade as equitable to a college education - why ? well, the ultimate purpose of either is to earn a living and the time taken for a degree is the same as an apprenticeship.

As far as i am concerned, once my kids go to college or get a trade i don't really care which they do, once they either (or both).

My secondary school had no workshop, that has since changed and my lads do woodwork there and the projects they do are quite skilled. But ultimately, I agree with Whoey - when things are broken around the house it's me that everyone comes to - be it their computers/phones or appliances and I think the fault for that lies with me - instead of telling them to fix it themselves so they learn it's just easier for me to do it. This, coupled with the disposable society we live in means they don't have to learn to fix things.
 

[Whoey]

I live in a rural area - maybe because of that, i think trades are still valued. I'm crap at DIY but i still do most of the maintenance on my house unless it's something fairly serious.
Personally, I view a trade as equitable to a college education - why ? well, the ultimate purpose of either is to earn a living and the time taken for a degree is the same as an apprenticeship.

As far as i am concerned, once my kids go to college or get a trade i don't really care which they do, once they either (or both).

My secondary school had no workshop, that has since changed and my lads do woodwork there and the projects they do are quite skilled. But ultimately, I agree with Whoey - when things are broken around the house it's me that everyone comes to - be it their computers/phones or appliances and I think the fault for that lies with me - instead of telling them to fix it themselves so they learn it's just easier for me to do it. This, coupled with the disposable society we live in means they don't have to learn to fix things.

This happens to me a lot too. A lot of the time I'm expected to both know what's wrong and how to fix it, some times it really only involves some trial and error.

Post high school I went on to study Electronics. Yet these days I've had my hands in a number of skilled trades as well as Electronics.

I've always felt shop classes encouraged me to find solutions to problems using the skills and tools at hand.

[Chako]

Here in Canada, we have what is called the "Baby Boom". The tail end of that generation will be retired in the next decade or so. Once that happens, we will need to import skilled labour to meet demand.

It is somewhat a poor statement of our culture that many feel that being a trades person is lower on the ladder than someone with a University degree, or even college, despite apprentices needing a college component in their training. In fact, this is such an issue that even amongst my colleagues, many feel the same way, baring those shop teachers that know better. I cannot tell you how many meetings I have been privy to that had some teachers, even the administration, declare that such and such is struggling in school, and thus, should be relegated to shop classes. 

The fact is, you need to be good in school to excel in the trades. it is a misnomer that the trade pathway is only there for those who do poorly in schools. That rot even permeates the school systems and those who should know better staffing the classrooms and running the schools. My father was a plumber and a steamfitter. He was a remarkably intelligent man. He came in highest in his year, and also in his apprenticeship. I have the plaques to prove it.





He noticed a general dumbing down of the quality of apprentices he was given and took in his later years. This is an issue that has gone on for quite some time. If he saw what the schooling system streams into the tech area these days, I think he would probably shed a tear. 

So I try to plant the seed of skilled labour into the minds of my students. I personally know of many taxi drivers, or Walmart employees with degrees. I have never seen someone with a trade doing that.

[Sneider]

In Switzerland, more and more young people are studying,  less and less learning a useful job.
Anyone who has learned a real job here and is growing on the job to a speSmurfpillst  can choose where he wants to work,
the companies are doing everything they can to get such people!

On the other hand, there are people who have successfully studied but can nothing. They have a hard time finding a job.

Maybe it looks as if the next generation theoretically know anything better, but practically can nothing.
The society is changing, the young are different from the old, and soon they are the old ... 
I think that regulates itself and comes well.

Happy New Year!
 

[dks]

we need to develop robots, quickly

[Etherealicer]

In Switzerland it is the opposite... well we never had shop classes in school, we have apprenticeships. Anyway, the demand for skilled tradespeople is increasing. Last year we had the first newly trained weapon-smith in over 30 years (As in medieval sword making guy). Evening classes for enthusiasts are on the rise and in general demand for craftsmen is on the rise.

I think the easiest to see it is with beer. 15 years ago almost every beer brewed in Switzerland was owned by Carlsberg or Heineken with probably less than a dozend independand breweries left. Today, there are over 500 new small breweries.
I could give you the sales number because we have the shops of all major hardware stores on our servers , so I can say with confidence that the demand for hand crafted furniture and such has increased in the last 15 years too. People move away from IKEA to unique furniture.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I think shop classes are very important, but the incompetence I have seen goes well beyond shop classes and defies even the most basic skills.  Changing light bulbs is not something you need to take a shop class for.

It amazes me how few people can change a flat on their car too.  What's next?  Having to go to the dealership to put gas in it for you too?

Def

[Smashie]

I think shop classes are very important, but the incompetence I have seen goes well beyond shop classes and defies even the most basic skills.  Changing light bulbs is not something you need to take a shop class for.

It amazes me how few people can change a flat on their car too.  What's next?  Having to go to the dealership to put gas in it for you too?

Def

You joke about that but quite a few Shell fuel stations around me have someone that comes out and offers to fill the car up for you

Link

https://www.hertzcarsales.co.uk/blog/used-car-sales/bring-forecourt-assistant-back-petrol-station/

[Whoey]

I think shop classes are very important, but the incompetence I have seen goes well beyond shop classes and defies even the most basic skills.  Changing light bulbs is not something you need to take a shop class for.

It amazes me how few people can change a flat on their car too.  What's next?  Having to go to the dealership to put gas in it for you too?

Def

You joke about that but quite a few Shell fuel stations around me have someone that comes out and offers to fill the car up for you

Link

https://www.hertzcarsales.co.uk/blog/used-car-sales/bring-forecourt-assistant-back-petrol-station/

I've yet to visit a full service station since I bought my car 4 years ago. Go figure...

[dks]

all petrol stations here are full service, with no extra charge

[Grant Lamontagne]

We have some full serve stations, but most are self serve.  They generally cost a few cents a liter more to go there than the self serve stations.

Def

[Whoey]

what I'm wondering is, if the kids these days don't have skills to fill their gas, who is working the full service stations? 

[Smashie]

what I'm wondering is, if the kids these days don't have skills to fill their gas, who is working the full service stations? 

Old retired people