Is there a way to spot a Mod without removing scales? Scientist/Yeoman

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Some Yeoman and Scientists happen to be creations of knives that may have once been an Explorer/Compact mod.

I bought a Yeoman one time that I thought was a Swiss Bianco, only to find out it wasn't his work.   I was a bit gutted, but lesson learned.
I have since purchased the Yeoman in a sealed blister pack so I know it's original, or at least high odds.
I recently bought a Scientist, but I wondered if it was original, so I took off the scales to check the peening.  A little bit of red cellidor was removed near the pivot area in removing the scales,  .

I was able to prove to myself it is an original, but in the meanwhile, I messed up its original condition in the process.

Is there a way to identify if a knife has been modded without removing the scales, a question I wish I would have asked before removing these scales.
Here is the Scientist:



Little bits of round, red cellidor came off during the careful removal of the scales:  Happily, they did snap back on with a snap sound, but still.


I don't mind buying a Mod, and I have, I just like to know it's a mod being sold.

[magentus]

Medical Bill says........
WP_20170223_028 by magpie2112, on Flickr

[NorCalJim]

Medical Bill says........
WP_20170223_028 by magpie2112, on Flickr

 

The Lego scenes are very entertaining!

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Medical Bill says........
WP_20170223_028 by magpie2112, on Flickr

Thank you Medical Bill. 

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The Lego scenes are very entertaining!

Agreed!

[NorCalJim]

Some Yeoman and Scientists happen to be creations of knives that may have once been an Explorer/Compact mod.

I bought a Yeoman one time that I thought was a Swiss Bianco, only to find out it wasn't his work.   I was a bit gutted, but lesson learned.
I have since purchased the Yeoman in a sealed blister pack so I know it's original, or at least high odds.
I recently bought a Scientist, but I wondered if it was original, so I took off the scales to check the peening.  A little bit of red cellidor was removed near the pivot area in removing the scales,  .

I was able to prove to myself it is an original, but in the meanwhile, I messed up its original condition in the process.

Is there a way to identify if a knife has been modded without removing the scales, a question I wish I would have asked before removing these scales.
Here is the Scientist:



Little bits of round, red cellidor came off during the careful removal of the scales:  Happily, they did snap back on with a snap sound, but still.


I don't mind buying a Mod, and I have, I just like to know it's a mod being sold.

Good topic!  It never occurred to me that a seller would advertise a Yeoman or Scientist and not disclose it as a modified SAK.  For e-bay transactions, specifically asking if it was a modification would offer some protection but proving it to yourself would ruin the compression integrity of the cellidor scales. I would go the route of posing key questions such as "Are you the original owner?", "Is this a factory configuration or a post-sale modification?", etc.

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Good topic!  It never occurred to me that a seller would advertise a Yeoman or Scientist and not disclose it as a modified SAK.  For e-bay transactions, specifically asking if it was a modification would offer some protection but proving it to yourself would ruin the compression integrity of the cellidor scales. I would go the route of posing key questions such as "Are you the original owner?", "Is this a factory configuration or a post-sale modification?", etc.

Thanks NorCal, and don't go removing the scales of your new-to-you Yeoman, it is about as mint in box as they come from the factory! 

[magentus]

Medical Bill would do anything for Dr Kettlewell, up to and including answering OP.
WP_20170223_029 by magpie2112, on Flickr

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Medical Bill would do anything for Dr Kettlewell, up to and including answering OP.
WP_20170223_029 by magpie2112, on Flickr

Thank Medsie-poo for her!   

[jazzbass]

Is there a way to identify if a knife has been modded without removing the scales, a question I wish I would have asked before removing these scales.

I can usually spot a mod because there are so many variations of tools from over the years that often modders don't use the right combo of period-correct tools in a mod. That works 90% of the time. The rest of the time the scales have to come off, unfortunately. I've had to do this is with a Yeoman variant I picked up years ago - it has a pen blade instead of a combo tool. I wasn't convinced it was factory until I pulled the scales of and checked the rivet like you did with the Scientist. Turns out it is a factory build.

Do this hobby long enough and you'll get burned a number of times unfortunately. You'll buy Modelers that are really Champions, knives that have had their main blades reprofiled to hide the fact that the tip broke off, and (my favorite) knives sold with the original box and it's the wrong box. 

[jaya_man]

I would abswer No.... unless it would be obvious from non-standard tool config...

A trick I just learned from someone in this forum, try warming up the scales a bit with a hair dryer...


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[glenfiddich1983]

Is there a way to identify if a knife has been modded without removing the scales, a question I wish I would have asked before removing these scales.

I can usually spot a mod because there are so many variations of tools from over the years that often modders don't use the right combo of period-correct tools in a mod. That works 90% of the time. The rest of the time the scales have to come off, unfortunately. I've had to do this is with a Yeoman variant I picked up years ago - it has a pen blade instead of a combo tool. I wasn't convinced it was factory until I pulled the scales of and checked the rivet like you did with the Scientist. Turns out it is a factory build.

Do this hobby long enough and you'll get burned a number of times unfortunately. You'll buy Modelers that are really Champions, knives that have had their main blades reprofiled to hide the fact that the tip broke off, and (my favorite) knives sold with the original box and it's the wrong box. 

I'm so glad i'm not (yet ) in that phase where I start caring about the boxes the knives come in 

[Thunderpants]

If it can't sing the second verse of The Jam's Eton Rifles it's probably not a mod...

[magentus]

If it can't sing the second verse of The Jam's Eton Rifles it's probably not a mod...

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Thank you all for the replies.
I appreciate the hair drier tip too.

I'm glad the scales snapped back on tightly.  I was worried I had messed it up trying to see if it was factory or not.

[red_rider_1979]

Physics101... Is this a case of "Schrodinger's Cat"? 

[MacGyver]

I'm sorry to ask but... If you've bought the knife already, scales feel solid, tools feel solid and in good shape, what is the relevance of "knowing" if it's a mod or not to go thru the lengths of popping the scales off to know?

For me popping scales off always means one of two things, either put some new ones on or if I want to put the old ones back I have to put a drop of glue in the rivet holes for them to feel rock solid again 

[hiraethus]

Some people like to have the real thing, I guess.  Anyone can throw a Yeoman together but authenticity is important to some collectors.

[hiraethus]

I wonder if the condition of the exposed pin in the knife can tell you anything about the history of the knife?  I can't get my verniers in there, but if you could accurately measure the diameter of the brass that may point to a mod/factory knife.

[MacGyver]

Some people like to have the real thing, I guess.  Anyone can throw a Yeoman together but authenticity is important to some collectors.

Humm ok, i can see that... 
I guess i have too much of a user's practical point of view of things to fully understand real collectors needs and importance of some things. But i can empathize with that, no problem 

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Thank you all for the replies.
Pin diameter, that is interesting, though some modders can rebuild using the same pin and bushing.
Perhaps I put too much importance on the authenticity of the item.  Proof is that I tampered with it in order to prove to myself it is authentic, not a wise choice, and that is why I posed the question.

[ReamerPunch]

They've got under their name.   

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They've got (Image removed from quote.) under their name.   

[Aloha]

I'm sorry to ask but... If you've bought the knife already, scales feel solid, tools feel solid and in good shape, what is the relevance of "knowing" if it's a mod or not to go thru the lengths of popping the scales off to know?

For me popping scales off always means one of two things, either put some new ones on or if I want to put the old ones back I have to put a drop of glue in the rivet holes for them to feel rock solid again 

If one has bought a SAK under the impression that its a factory model then come to find out its a mod cost could be of issue.  The integrity of the seller would also come into question as well.  Many times these discontinued harder to obtain models fetch a tidy sum.

The collectors side of having a tool that cannot be authenticated is similar for art work.  Wanting a original unmolested item is not hard to understand when we look at it from the side of collectors wanting an original. 

Cars art, even watch collectors all fall into that category for my way of thinking. 

All my 2c worth.   

[MacGyver]

I'm sorry to ask but... If you've bought the knife already, scales feel solid, tools feel solid and in good shape, what is the relevance of "knowing" if it's a mod or not to go thru the lengths of popping the scales off to know?

For me popping scales off always means one of two things, either put some new ones on or if I want to put the old ones back I have to put a drop of glue in the rivet holes for them to feel rock solid again 

If one has bought a SAK under the impression that its a factory model then come to find out its a mod cost could be of issue.  The integrity of the seller would also come into question as well.  Many times these discontinued harder to obtain models fetch a tidy sum.

The collectors side of having a tool that cannot be authenticated is similar for art work.  Wanting a original unmolested item is not hard to understand when we look at it from the side of collectors wanting an original. 

Cars art, even watch collectors all fall into that category for my way of thinking. 

All my 2c worth.   

Thank's for sharing your point of view. I can understand that way of thinking and reasoning, but it's always difficult for me to look at things from that perspective as i never really collected (or have intentions to proper collect) anything.
I never could really understand the point of having a bunch stuff for the sake of having just to be on display to look at and not actually use it, like real proper collectors do. That's why, to me, limited editions and things alike are meaningless and ridiculously expensive, most of the time are just normal production models with fancy scales.

Mind you this is not a critique to any one who collects by any means, is just something that never really got my interest or appeal to me in that way.

I like to have some stuff in their original state from factory (in any area) if i really like the way it looks like that, not really because of the concept of being original or not.
That's why, to me, if i was looking for a Yeoman or any specific other for a specific toolset, if the sak looked original and felt solid i wouldn't mind if it was actually original from factory or not. You know... as long as you can´t tell it apart from looking at it...and if is as good as an original

[Syph007]

You have to take the scales off.  To minimize the chance of the scales breaking, heat them well with a hair drying.  I use a heat gun but if you hold it too long you can melt the scales.  Sometimes I submerge the SAK in hot tap water for a few minutes too.  Any way you want to do it though heating the scales makes them come off way easier.

[JamesJ]

A high definition radiograph machine would allow you to see the rivets through the scales. It's at least a few thousand dollars used though... 

People have been messaging me on instagram about wanting yeomans. Don't know what it is about that model but it's popular. I've been considering putting a few together for sale but I would of course state clearly that they are assembled versions and not factory made. In fact, to be extra safe I'd probably state it several times and also use obviously non original scale colors.

I dont mind so much if a knife is original or not as long as the tool condition is great and snap is nice. But I certainly dont want to PAY collectors prices for a mod. (Nor do I pay collectors prices for factory knives either).

In many cases I repair knives and replace atleast 1 pin in doing so. So at that point the knife is a mod technically, with one of its tools replaced. I try to use a period correct version of the tool when doing this. I've never sold any of these though. They're all my personal knives. I have a CT41 I completely disasembled to replace one backspring. But Im satisfied with it as a CT41 for my collection, I don't desire a factory assembled one.

I get the collectors thing though.

What if something is sent back to Vic for repair and a newer version of a tool is used to replace a broken tool, and they install the pins with their machine? Rare case I suppose.

Then there's Central Valley (who I buy from and like) they are an authorised dealer but do scale swaps on brand new knives themselves and sell the knives as "new" once they've put different scales on them.  Not sure how that's viewed by collectors. No peening involved there.