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Leatherman Cease and Desist 1996

Sr. Member Posts: 351
Leatherman Cease and Desist
« on: February 27, 2017, 04:12:56 AM »
Looks like Leatherman has sent a cease and desist order to Texas Toolcrafters. Guess it's a new legal team and they don't like modders. Anyone else heard anything?


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Jr. Member Posts: 61
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2017, 04:47:02 AM »
I'm late to the party, did they sell modded Leatherman products? Looks like they do some awesome finish work. That kind of sucks!
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 25,574
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2017, 05:10:29 AM »
Wonder why the sudden change :think: They have been modding LM for years now :shrug: Perhaps LM sees a market for it now and are going to try and go for that ??? Hopefully we find something out about this :think:

Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 19,471 What's the matter, kid? Don't ya like clowns?
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2017, 05:12:02 AM »
Wow, I had not heard this yet. Not sure how I feel about it. If they buy the tools they can do whatever they wan't with them correct? Not sure if Leatherman has any real legal ground here, but i'm probably wrong since Leatherman probably pays their lawyers quite a bit of money and its what they do for a living so i'm sure they know what they are doing.  :think:

I'm the milk man!
Hero Member Posts: 653
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2017, 05:13:34 AM »
Damn, I should have bought the orchild pink and olive drab Charges when they were on sale last year.

I think they are shut down because of using Leatherman name in their products, like Recharge, Wave Shogun Edition.... as they are not official. I wonder if Leatherman can do anything to TTC if they just sell coated parts instead.

Just think of how TTC sell a gold-plated Charge (probably with a better process) at half the price the official ones. Corporate bully at work. Not cool, Leatherman.
Hero Member Posts: 653
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2017, 05:36:36 AM »
The more I think about it, if TTC just plate and sell parts, plus a few custom-material blades, they may be better off. Why disassemble new tools, do custom color work, then sell at same or below retail price?

Here is a shoutout to TTC, a pair of Wave and Charge. I did not buy directly from them, but the quality is top notch.

(Was thinking of giving the gold Charge away as gift. I may want to hold on to it now  :D)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 05:38:16 AM by chrono »
No Life Club Posts: 1,532
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2017, 06:17:01 AM »
I'm all for customizing multi tools  :tu:

But i'm not sure that this is unordinary business practice. Leatherman is allowed to protect their intellectual property. This is why there are patents and trademarks in place.  :whistle:

They're still selling gold dipped Gerber knives if interested  :dwts:

multi-tools—folding contraptions fixed with all kinds of doo-dads
Hero Member Posts: 653
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2017, 01:06:43 PM »
I'm all for customizing multi tools  :tu:

But i'm not sure that this is unordinary business practice. Leatherman is allowed to protect their intellectual property. This is why there are patents and trademarks in place.  :whistle:


That is why I think TTC in hot water because they sell reassembled/ modded tools with Leatherman name. They are probably considered "fake" Leatherman, ground for claims on trademark. TTC still sell custom Damascus blade replacements for Skeletool, Charge, Wave... on eBay though, makes me believe selling parts/ custom parts is ok.
No Life Club Posts: 2,563 Smurf it!
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2017, 02:00:38 PM »
Damn I knew I should have bought one sooner, I really don't see LM having a rock solid case here, but it's Davis Vs Goliath

"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

"Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference." -  Winston Churchill
Head Turd Polisher Administrator He who has the most nuts, wins! Posts: 55,921 Optimum instrumentum est inter aures
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2017, 02:02:57 PM »
Leatherman is a trademarked name, and since TTC is disassembling the tools and reassembling them, they are no longer factory spec.  I'm not suggesting that TTC does not do good work, but Leatherman has probabaly been on the hook for a few repairs of modified tools.  They can't deny the service because it is their customer and their product, and doing so would look very bad for them.  But, if someone was to break a Damascus blade, how does Leatherman replace it? 

There are a lot of complications with mods, and some of our in house SAK modders have gotten similar warnings from Victorinox, largely because they are using the Victorinox name (once you modify a tool, it is no longer a Victorinox or Leatherman etc) and implying that the mod will have the same quality as Victorinox or Leatherman, which it probably doesn't.  Even so, if it does break, and the user is injured to the point where it enters litigation, who does that user seek compensation from?  The longstanding rule of lawsuits is that you go for who has the most money, and I don't care how much TTC makes, I guarantee Tim has much deeper pockets.

Modders of any sort, whether they are a legitimate business like TTC or some guy on the forum cranking them out on his or her kitchen table need to market the manufactured product as their own, NOT as a Leatherman, or else face the same issues.  It is YOUR creation, and you just happened to use components from Company X.

In short, Leatherman doesn't want to take responsibility for something that someone else did.  I'm surprised they took this long to do it TBH.

Def





No Life Club Posts: 2,563 Smurf it!
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2017, 02:13:55 PM »
Leatherman is a trademarked name, and since TTC is disassembling the tools and reassembling them, they are no longer factory spec.  I'm not suggesting that TTC does not do good work, but Leatherman has probabaly been on the hook for a few repairs of modified tools.  They can't deny the service because it is their customer and their product, and doing so would look very bad for them.  But, if someone was to break a Damascus blade, how does Leatherman replace it? 

There are a lot of complications with mods, and some of our in house SAK modders have gotten similar warnings from Victorinox, largely because they are using the Victorinox name (once you modify a tool, it is no longer a Victorinox or Leatherman etc) and implying that the mod will have the same quality as Victorinox or Leatherman, which it probably doesn't.  Even so, if it does break, and the user is injured to the point where it enters litigation, who does that user seek compensation from?  The longstanding rule of lawsuits is that you go for who has the most money, and I don't care how much TTC makes, I guarantee Tim has much deeper pockets.

Modders of any sort, whether they are a legitimate business like TTC or some guy on the forum cranking them out on his or her kitchen table need to market the manufactured product as their own, NOT as a Leatherman, or else face the same issues.  It is YOUR creation, and you just happened to use components from Company X.

In short, Leatherman doesn't want to take responsibility for something that someone else did.  I'm surprised they took this long to do it TBH.

Def

I do see that point, but as LM don't offer comparative products it's hard to see where confusion could come from.

An comparable example is the Bamford Watch Company http://www.bamfordwatchdepartment.com/us/ and having asked one of the brands involved what they think of it, their answer was 'we still sell watches and these modifications may well attract new buyer'. A pretty progressive view from an industry that has gone out of it's way to make life difficult for everyone else.

Oh, I wouldn't buy a Bamford, a bit blingy for me

"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

"Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference." -  Winston Churchill
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 9,399 You're amongst friends.
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2017, 03:09:24 PM »
My first thoughts.....

Does this mean TTC modded tool values now shoot way up? :D

SAW

Weilder of the MP600 and many other neat gadgets :tu:
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 11,716
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2017, 03:50:31 PM »
I hope TTC can find a work around or some other means to continue. 

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 2,542
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2017, 04:25:15 PM »
I hope TTC can find a work around or some other means to continue.

Or even better start their own brand!
They will clearly be knowledgeable in the mechanisms of MT's and will no doubt find away around existing patents. They wouldn't even have to make the parts, work could be outsourced - that's what leatherman do I hear.
Maybe MT'o should commission the first batch  :pok:

I don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is right.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 11,716
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2017, 04:37:22 PM »
I hope TTC can find a work around or some other means to continue.

Or even better start their own brand!
They will clearly be knowledgeable in the mechanisms of MT's and will no doubt find away around existing patents. They wouldn't even have to make the parts, work could be outsourced - that's what leatherman do I hear.
Maybe MT'o should commission the first batch  :pok:

Brilliant idea Tosh

Esse Quam Videri
Hero Member Posts: 959 Born to multitask.
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2017, 04:56:13 PM »
I hope TTC can find a work around or some other means to continue.

Or even better start their own brand!
They will clearly be knowledgeable in the mechanisms of MT's and will no doubt find away around existing patents. They wouldn't even have to make the parts, work could be outsourced - that's what leatherman do I hear.
Maybe MT'o should commission the first batch  :pok:

Brilliant idea Tosh

Could they make Evil's mods?  :drool:
No Life Club Posts: 1,775
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2017, 05:05:41 PM »
I can see where they can run into trouble with the name but otherwise, they buy the tools, modify them, then resell them as modified tools. They have as much a right as anyone else to modify their own property and sell it if they want to. I dont think they have made any claims on these tools being factory and they should put a disclaimer if they have not already that there is no warranty. If this goes to court, i feel pretty confident ttc would win, maybe with a contingency that they add a disclaimer about warranty and change the name of what they are selling, etc.. they should win. I just don't know if they could compete with the lawyers that LM will be able to hire. I'm no legal expert though.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 11,716
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2017, 05:12:47 PM »
I can see where they can run into trouble with the name but otherwise, they buy the tools, modify them, then resell them as modified tools. They have as much a right as anyone else to modify their own property and sell it if they want to. I dont think they have made any claims on these tools being factory and they should put a disclaimer if they have not already that there is no warranty. If this goes to court, i feel pretty confident ttc would win, maybe with a contingency that they add a disclaimer about warranty and change the name of what they are selling, etc.. they should win. I just don't know if they could compete with the lawyers that LM will be able to hire. I'm no legal expert though.

Bingo.  As Grant said they ( LM ) have very deep pockets. 

Esse Quam Videri
No Life Club Posts: 2,630
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2017, 05:22:37 PM »
There are legal reasons why corporate entities must enforce their trademarks and intellectual property - even if they don't want to enforce them.  Its the same reason the Olympics and the NCAA ("March Madness") enforce their trademarks (with threats) even against harmless entities like charities and churches.  I do not know the legal implications of taking a product like a Leatherman Wave and then modifying it, but it is difficult for a relatively small entity like TTC to repel a legal challenge from a major corporation like Leatherman if for no other reasons than the crushing costs involved with litigation.

I suspect that the parties will negotiate their way out of this, with TTC paying royalties or getting licensed by Leatherman, and that the TTC/Leatherman products will eventually reappear.

No Life Club Posts: 1,532
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2017, 06:57:41 PM »
There are legal reasons why corporate entities must enforce their trademarks and intellectual property - even if they don't want to enforce them.  Its the same reason the Olympics and the NCAA ("March Madness") enforce their trademarks (with threats) even against harmless entities like charities and churches.  I do not know the legal implications of taking a product like a Leatherman Wave and then modifying it, but it is difficult for a relatively small entity like TTC to repel a legal challenge from a major corporation like Leatherman if for no other reasons than the crushing costs involved with litigation.

I suspect that the parties will negotiate their way out of this, with TTC paying royalties or getting licensed by Leatherman, and that the TTC/Leatherman products will eventually reappear.

(Image removed from quote.)
There was a  charcuterie here in Portland called Olympic provisions and the "olympics" made  them change their name...

But Grant makes some good points.

multi-tools—folding contraptions fixed with all kinds of doo-dads
No Life Club Posts: 1,049 Hook enthusiast
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2017, 07:33:25 PM »
There are legal reasons why corporate entities must enforce their trademarks and intellectual property - even if they don't want to enforce them.  Its the same reason the Olympics and the NCAA ("March Madness") enforce their trademarks (with threats) even against harmless entities like charities and churches.  I do not know the legal implications of taking a product like a Leatherman Wave and then modifying it, but it is difficult for a relatively small entity like TTC to repel a legal challenge from a major corporation like Leatherman if for no other reasons than the crushing costs involved with litigation.

I suspect that the parties will negotiate their way out of this, with TTC paying royalties or getting licensed by Leatherman, and that the TTC/Leatherman products will eventually reappear.

(Image removed from quote.)
There was a  charcuterie here in Portland called Olympic provisions and the "olympics" made  them change their name...

But Grant makes some good points.
I wonder what they would think of the "rms Olympic".   :D

Hooked, like everyone else. :D

Small knives do what big knives do, just slower.
No Life Club Posts: 2,542
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2017, 08:31:41 PM »


".....as Grant said they ( LM ) have very deep pockets."


T'is a pity they don't have inspiration to match!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 08:33:02 PM by tosh »

I don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is right.
Head Turd Polisher Administrator He who has the most nuts, wins! Posts: 55,921 Optimum instrumentum est inter aures
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2017, 09:18:50 PM »
Perhaps they are too busy spending it on lawyers.

Honestly I completely understand Leatherman on this- hell, I'm protective of the MTO brand, and it isn't worth a fraction of what Leatherman's brand is. 

I think TTC could easily manage to stay in business pretty well exactly as they have been, with only a few minor changes- simply stop using the Leatherman name and suggest that they specifically are providing warranty service (or none at all) and not Leatherman despite there being some LM components used in construction of the tool.

It is important to differentiate that they are using Leatherman components rather than providing Leatherman products.

Def





No Life Club Posts: 2,542
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2017, 09:38:32 PM »
Joking aside
I do actually agree with everything you say Def
I don't own any TTC stuff, because it isn't genuine LM. In the past I've had to double check to ensure things I were tempted to buy were indeed genuine LM. The coloured Skeletools is a good example as is the Damascus wave (haven't bought it yet, but I know where it is should I be tempted) but again I needed to know if it was LM or TTC

I don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is right.
Sr. Member Posts: 252
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2017, 09:52:23 PM »
The thing that confuses me about this is I'm fairly sure (need to check but I don't have the tools in front of me right now) that some of the special edition LM's actually mention in the blurb that they were part of a tie-in with TTC (or similar wording); I'm talking here about official LM releases like the more recent anniversary tools, they have all the official LM stuff that comes with them but also make reference to a collaboration with TTC.

I think.

Hero Member Posts: 653
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2017, 11:50:14 PM »
Consider how meh new Leatherman products are this year, I will not be surprised if all this is to prepare for the launch of Charge/ Wave with Rebar's head (maybe with Wingman's scissors as well).
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 12,131 North American Meetup: May13-15 2011
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2017, 01:25:06 AM »
Perhaps they are too busy spending it on lawyers.

Honestly I completely understand Leatherman on this- hell, I'm protective of the MTO brand, and it isn't worth a fraction of what Leatherman's brand is. 

I think TTC could easily manage to stay in business pretty well exactly as they have been, with only a few minor changes- simply stop using the Leatherman name and suggest that they specifically are providing warranty service (or none at all) and not Leatherman despite there being some LM components used in construction of the tool.

It is important to differentiate that they are using Leatherman components rather than providing Leatherman products.

Defa

I think this is exactly the point.  TTC needs to clearly differentiate that their product is NOT a Leatherman and is no longer bound to the Leatherman warranty

No Life Club Posts: 2,239 American Custom Materials Executive (ACME)
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2017, 01:57:40 AM »
I'm pretty sure that Leatherman already won't do warranty work on mods.

If there is anything, maybe dilution, or maybe they're just sick of someone making a pretty tool. But that would be like a custom finisher or engraver being sued by Colt or Remington.

There is man the tool maker, man the tool user, and man the tool- choose your path wisely.

"So I left the realm of man and beast to become a god, and leave my fingerprints upon the sky."

"Even if it is only the handful of people I meet on the street, or in my home, I can still protect them with this one sword."
No Life Club Posts: 1,532
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2017, 02:05:32 AM »
Aren't gold tools kinda foo-foo?

multi-tools—folding contraptions fixed with all kinds of doo-dads
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,310 Tool Carrying Linux User - I'm Iron Man!!!
Re: Leatherman Cease and Desist
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2017, 02:28:44 AM »
I do not own any TTC tools either





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because I cannot affort them   :rofl:

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