Leatherman Cease and Desist

[gadgetman7]

Looks like Leatherman has sent a cease and desist order to Texas Toolcrafters. Guess it's a new legal team and they don't like modders. Anyone else heard anything?


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[lohman]

I'm late to the party, did they sell modded Leatherman products? Looks like they do some awesome finish work. That kind of sucks!

[Poncho65]

Wonder why the sudden change They have been modding LM for years now Perhaps LM sees a market for it now and are going to try and go for that Hopefully we find something out about this

[captain spaulding]

Wow, I had not heard this yet. Not sure how I feel about it. If they buy the tools they can do whatever they wan't with them correct? Not sure if Leatherman has any real legal ground here, but i'm probably wrong since Leatherman probably pays their lawyers quite a bit of money and its what they do for a living so i'm sure they know what they are doing. 

[chrono]

Damn, I should have bought the orchild pink and olive drab Charges when they were on sale last year.

I think they are shut down because of using Leatherman name in their products, like Recharge, Wave Shogun Edition.... as they are not official. I wonder if Leatherman can do anything to TTC if they just sell coated parts instead.

Just think of how TTC sell a gold-plated Charge (probably with a better process) at half the price the official ones. Corporate bully at work. Not cool, Leatherman.

[chrono]

The more I think about it, if TTC just plate and sell parts, plus a few custom-material blades, they may be better off. Why disassemble new tools, do custom color work, then sell at same or below retail price?

Here is a shoutout to TTC, a pair of Wave and Charge. I did not buy directly from them, but the quality is top notch.

(Was thinking of giving the gold Charge away as gift. I may want to hold on to it now  )

[kaput]

I'm all for customizing multi tools 

But i'm not sure that this is unordinary business practice. Leatherman is allowed to protect their intellectual property. This is why there are patents and trademarks in place. 

They're still selling gold dipped Gerber knives if interested 

[chrono]

I'm all for customizing multi tools 

But i'm not sure that this is unordinary business practice. Leatherman is allowed to protect their intellectual property. This is why there are patents and trademarks in place. 

That is why I think TTC in hot water because they sell reassembled/ modded tools with Leatherman name. They are probably considered "fake" Leatherman, ground for claims on trademark. TTC still sell custom Damascus blade replacements for Skeletool, Charge, Wave... on eBay though, makes me believe selling parts/ custom parts is ok.

[Smashie]

Damn I knew I should have bought one sooner, I really don't see LM having a rock solid case here, but it's Davis Vs Goliath

[Grant Lamontagne]

Leatherman is a trademarked name, and since TTC is disassembling the tools and reassembling them, they are no longer factory spec.  I'm not suggesting that TTC does not do good work, but Leatherman has probabaly been on the hook for a few repairs of modified tools.  They can't deny the service because it is their customer and their product, and doing so would look very bad for them.  But, if someone was to break a Damascus blade, how does Leatherman replace it? 

There are a lot of complications with mods, and some of our in house SAK modders have gotten similar warnings from Victorinox, largely because they are using the Victorinox name (once you modify a tool, it is no longer a Victorinox or Leatherman etc) and implying that the mod will have the same quality as Victorinox or Leatherman, which it probably doesn't.  Even so, if it does break, and the user is injured to the point where it enters litigation, who does that user seek compensation from?  The longstanding rule of lawsuits is that you go for who has the most money, and I don't care how much TTC makes, I guarantee Tim has much deeper pockets.

Modders of any sort, whether they are a legitimate business like TTC or some guy on the forum cranking them out on his or her kitchen table need to market the manufactured product as their own, NOT as a Leatherman, or else face the same issues.  It is YOUR creation, and you just happened to use components from Company X.

In short, Leatherman doesn't want to take responsibility for something that someone else did.  I'm surprised they took this long to do it TBH.

Def

[Smashie]

Leatherman is a trademarked name, and since TTC is disassembling the tools and reassembling them, they are no longer factory spec.  I'm not suggesting that TTC does not do good work, but Leatherman has probabaly been on the hook for a few repairs of modified tools.  They can't deny the service because it is their customer and their product, and doing so would look very bad for them.  But, if someone was to break a Damascus blade, how does Leatherman replace it? 

There are a lot of complications with mods, and some of our in house SAK modders have gotten similar warnings from Victorinox, largely because they are using the Victorinox name (once you modify a tool, it is no longer a Victorinox or Leatherman etc) and implying that the mod will have the same quality as Victorinox or Leatherman, which it probably doesn't.  Even so, if it does break, and the user is injured to the point where it enters litigation, who does that user seek compensation from?  The longstanding rule of lawsuits is that you go for who has the most money, and I don't care how much TTC makes, I guarantee Tim has much deeper pockets.

Modders of any sort, whether they are a legitimate business like TTC or some guy on the forum cranking them out on his or her kitchen table need to market the manufactured product as their own, NOT as a Leatherman, or else face the same issues.  It is YOUR creation, and you just happened to use components from Company X.

In short, Leatherman doesn't want to take responsibility for something that someone else did.  I'm surprised they took this long to do it TBH.

Def

I do see that point, but as LM don't offer comparative products it's hard to see where confusion could come from.

An comparable example is the Bamford Watch Company http://www.bamfordwatchdepartment.com/us/ and having asked one of the brands involved what they think of it, their answer was 'we still sell watches and these modifications may well attract new buyer'. A pretty progressive view from an industry that has gone out of it's way to make life difficult for everyone else.

Oh, I wouldn't buy a Bamford, a bit blingy for me

[sawman]

My first thoughts.....

Does this mean TTC modded tool values now shoot way up?

[Aloha]

I hope TTC can find a work around or some other means to continue. 

[tosh]

I hope TTC can find a work around or some other means to continue.

Or even better start their own brand!
They will clearly be knowledgeable in the mechanisms of MT's and will no doubt find away around existing patents. They wouldn't even have to make the parts, work could be outsourced - that's what leatherman do I hear.
Maybe MT'o should commission the first batch 

[Aloha]

I hope TTC can find a work around or some other means to continue.

Or even better start their own brand!
They will clearly be knowledgeable in the mechanisms of MT's and will no doubt find away around existing patents. They wouldn't even have to make the parts, work could be outsourced - that's what leatherman do I hear.
Maybe MT'o should commission the first batch 

Brilliant idea Tosh

[ReamerPunch]

I hope TTC can find a work around or some other means to continue.

Or even better start their own brand!
They will clearly be knowledgeable in the mechanisms of MT's and will no doubt find away around existing patents. They wouldn't even have to make the parts, work could be outsourced - that's what leatherman do I hear.
Maybe MT'o should commission the first batch 

Brilliant idea Tosh

Could they make Evil's mods? 

[G-Dizzle]

I can see where they can run into trouble with the name but otherwise, they buy the tools, modify them, then resell them as modified tools. They have as much a right as anyone else to modify their own property and sell it if they want to. I dont think they have made any claims on these tools being factory and they should put a disclaimer if they have not already that there is no warranty. If this goes to court, i feel pretty confident ttc would win, maybe with a contingency that they add a disclaimer about warranty and change the name of what they are selling, etc.. they should win. I just don't know if they could compete with the lawyers that LM will be able to hire. I'm no legal expert though.

[Aloha]

I can see where they can run into trouble with the name but otherwise, they buy the tools, modify them, then resell them as modified tools. They have as much a right as anyone else to modify their own property and sell it if they want to. I dont think they have made any claims on these tools being factory and they should put a disclaimer if they have not already that there is no warranty. If this goes to court, i feel pretty confident ttc would win, maybe with a contingency that they add a disclaimer about warranty and change the name of what they are selling, etc.. they should win. I just don't know if they could compete with the lawyers that LM will be able to hire. I'm no legal expert though.

Bingo.  As Grant said they ( LM ) have very deep pockets. 

[powernoodle]

There are legal reasons why corporate entities must enforce their trademarks and intellectual property - even if they don't want to enforce them.  Its the same reason the Olympics and the NCAA ("March Madness") enforce their trademarks (with threats) even against harmless entities like charities and churches.  I do not know the legal implications of taking a product like a Leatherman Wave and then modifying it, but it is difficult for a relatively small entity like TTC to repel a legal challenge from a major corporation like Leatherman if for no other reasons than the crushing costs involved with litigation.

I suspect that the parties will negotiate their way out of this, with TTC paying royalties or getting licensed by Leatherman, and that the TTC/Leatherman products will eventually reappear.

[kaput]

There are legal reasons why corporate entities must enforce their trademarks and intellectual property - even if they don't want to enforce them.  Its the same reason the Olympics and the NCAA ("March Madness") enforce their trademarks (with threats) even against harmless entities like charities and churches.  I do not know the legal implications of taking a product like a Leatherman Wave and then modifying it, but it is difficult for a relatively small entity like TTC to repel a legal challenge from a major corporation like Leatherman if for no other reasons than the crushing costs involved with litigation.

I suspect that the parties will negotiate their way out of this, with TTC paying royalties or getting licensed by Leatherman, and that the TTC/Leatherman products will eventually reappear.

(Image removed from quote.)

There was a  charcuterie here in Portland called Olympic provisions and the "olympics" made  them change their name...

But Grant makes some good points.

[Don Pablo]

There are legal reasons why corporate entities must enforce their trademarks and intellectual property - even if they don't want to enforce them.  Its the same reason the Olympics and the NCAA ("March Madness") enforce their trademarks (with threats) even against harmless entities like charities and churches.  I do not know the legal implications of taking a product like a Leatherman Wave and then modifying it, but it is difficult for a relatively small entity like TTC to repel a legal challenge from a major corporation like Leatherman if for no other reasons than the crushing costs involved with litigation.

I suspect that the parties will negotiate their way out of this, with TTC paying royalties or getting licensed by Leatherman, and that the TTC/Leatherman products will eventually reappear.

(Image removed from quote.)

There was a  charcuterie here in Portland called Olympic provisions and the "olympics" made  them change their name...

But Grant makes some good points.

I wonder what they would think of the "rms Olympic".   

[tosh]

".....as Grant said they ( LM ) have very deep pockets."


T'is a pity they don't have inspiration to match!

[Grant Lamontagne]

Perhaps they are too busy spending it on lawyers.

Honestly I completely understand Leatherman on this- hell, I'm protective of the MTO brand, and it isn't worth a fraction of what Leatherman's brand is. 

I think TTC could easily manage to stay in business pretty well exactly as they have been, with only a few minor changes- simply stop using the Leatherman name and suggest that they specifically are providing warranty service (or none at all) and not Leatherman despite there being some LM components used in construction of the tool.

It is important to differentiate that they are using Leatherman components rather than providing Leatherman products.

Def

[tosh]

Joking aside
I do actually agree with everything you say Def
I don't own any TTC stuff, because it isn't genuine LM. In the past I've had to double check to ensure things I were tempted to buy were indeed genuine LM. The coloured Skeletools is a good example as is the Damascus wave (haven't bought it yet, but I know where it is should I be tempted) but again I needed to know if it was LM or TTC

[Billy Ruffian]

The thing that confuses me about this is I'm fairly sure (need to check but I don't have the tools in front of me right now) that some of the special edition LM's actually mention in the blurb that they were part of a tie-in with TTC (or similar wording); I'm talking here about official LM releases like the more recent anniversary tools, they have all the official LM stuff that comes with them but also make reference to a collaboration with TTC.

I think.

[chrono]

Consider how meh new Leatherman products are this year, I will not be surprised if all this is to prepare for the launch of Charge/ Wave with Rebar's head (maybe with Wingman's scissors as well).

[Mr. Whippy]

Perhaps they are too busy spending it on lawyers.

Honestly I completely understand Leatherman on this- hell, I'm protective of the MTO brand, and it isn't worth a fraction of what Leatherman's brand is. 

I think TTC could easily manage to stay in business pretty well exactly as they have been, with only a few minor changes- simply stop using the Leatherman name and suggest that they specifically are providing warranty service (or none at all) and not Leatherman despite there being some LM components used in construction of the tool.

It is important to differentiate that they are using Leatherman components rather than providing Leatherman products.

Defa

I think this is exactly the point.  TTC needs to clearly differentiate that their product is NOT a Leatherman and is no longer bound to the Leatherman warranty

[ironraven]

I'm pretty sure that Leatherman already won't do warranty work on mods.

If there is anything, maybe dilution, or maybe they're just sick of someone making a pretty tool. But that would be like a custom finisher or engraver being sued by Colt or Remington.

[kaput]

Aren't gold tools kinda foo-foo?

[detron]

I do not own any TTC tools either





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because I cannot affort them