Bantam (Cellidor version) rivets and combination tool

[mcrib]

First post. I couldn't really find this information anywhere, so I thought I'd ask here.

I'm a long time SAK user like most people in general I'm guessing. But I didn't really start considering it something to collect until very recently. And now I'm kind of addicted.

I've read a little bit about the Bantam with the cellidor scales (forums and sakwiki) and learned that it only has two rivets? Which also means that the scales/covers attach by just two rivets instead of a normal three? When looking at the inside of my bantam and without removing the scales, I see a brass rod that goes between the two liners where the normal third rivets would be and back implements would normally attach to. I'm suspecting that the rod is leading to rivets on the outside of each liner. This is a brand new Bantam from Amazon so I'm wondering if  this might have changed with the later production bantams. I read in another thread that the lack of the third set of rivets turns people off to this particular model. I'm not even really sure I'm looking at the right thing. If anyone has an older Bantam, are you missing this brass rod?

Second question or observation. The first non-58mm size cellidor SAK I added to my budding three SAK collection was a used Waiter. After cleaning it up, I noticed that the combination tool look twisted. Who knows what the previous owner did with this knife? The flathead screwdriver part looked like it was cocked about 1-2 degrees. I searched online again, and was reading that this could be the tool's one drawback. It bends easily when applying too much torque. So I did what any normal person would do, I tried twisting it straight with a wrench. I went to town on it and really cranked it.  What I learned and confirmed with myself was SAKs are tough. Despite the torque I put on the combination tool, the hinge didn't fail. The combination tool flexed, but sprung back to its original twisted looking shape. Why was I babying these tools? Anyways, later I received my brand new Bantam mentioned above and guess what? The combination tool on that was equally twisted, that is, the combination tool must have been designed that way all along. Oops.

[VICMAN]

Welcome to the forum.

Go to the member list and contact jazzbass and you can probably get some information on this.

Click on MEMBERS at the top of the page and then click on SEARCH FOR MEMBERS.

Enter jazzbass for your SEARCH.

When you get the profile for jazzbass click on actions and send a message.

[Huntsman]

Interesting info -Thank you

I think you need a few (5) posts before you can send a PM
And let us know the answer here folks and I can update the wiki if neccy.
FYI The wiki is largely maintained by members here.

And glad to hear about your combi tool. I tried the same on a can opener SD and broke off the tip ....... was not happy

[mcrib]

Hi Huntsman and Vicman,

Thank you for your responses. I just tried sending jazzbass a pm, but have confirmed that I am unable to just yet.

I did do some more digging and happened onto this youtube video of a person who made custom scales for his bantam. The scaleless bantam shows the three sets of rivets.

[Huntsman]

Yep - Just looked at the wiki - It says:
"The Cellidor Bantam is constructed with only 2 rivets, where as most knives have 3. This is actually a characteristic that's related to the fact that there are no backside tools, making the extra rivet not really required."

And, for sure, you would think that should say: '......only 3 rivets where as most knives have 4......'

I don't think a 2 rivet knife would be very stable!!
Good spot - Let's see if anyone else comes back - And then we can correct

[ColoSwiss]

Can't help with your question, but welcome aboard!   

[jaya_man]

I never came across SAKs that only have 2 rivets. Didn't come across any discussion on this as well. After having mutilated, err disassembled SAKs, those with 3 pins are those models that don't have any back side tools such as alox, bantam and recruit. A third pin is still needed (the one in the center) to keep the back spring in place.

Probably rivets here meant bushings on 2 pins out of 3?


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[Huntsman]

Yep JM - Of course - Too true - The middle pin is the pivot !! So a spring would not even stay in place if there were only two pins!!

It's a mistake in the Wiki - I am going to change it

Thanks again mcrib, welcome, and great introduction to MTo - Correcting the Wiki - 

[mcrib]

I never came across SAKs that only have 2 rivets. Didn't come across any discussion on this as well. After having mutilated, err disassembled SAKs, those with 3 pins are those models that don't have any back side tools such as alox, bantam and recruit. A third pin is still needed (the one in the center) to keep the back spring in place.

Probably rivets here meant bushings on 2 pins out of 3?


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Hi jaya_man and Huntsman,

Bushings! This is what I meant when I was referring to rivets! I was using them interchangeably unfortunately.

The original spirit of my observation still stands though. My bantam and the bantam that was the subject of the youtube () video I posted earlier shows three sets of bushings and one back spring pin (four pins total like a regular SAK with back tools). The third (middle) set of bushing on my bantam looks to serve no purpose but to add the extra attachment point for the scales. While looking between the liners, this pin (I was calling it a brass rod in my original post) is just floating in there with nothing even touching it except the liners on either side. My waiter shows the same pin, but the back spring is butt up against it. Interestingly, I didn't realize that that back tools pivots around what would normally be a back spring pin on the non back tool SAKs. It seems that pivot deserves a bushing also, but that should probably be a subject of another post.

Like the wiki says, I believe at one point, the bantam only had two sets of bushings and one back spring pin since the third set of bushings/pin was not necessary since there are no back tools. But in the attached screenshots you can clearly see that there is indeed a third bushing set along with a back spring pin on a newer bantam.

[jaya_man]

I never came across SAKs that only have 2 rivets. Didn't come across any discussion on this as well. After having mutilated, err disassembled SAKs, those with 3 pins are those models that don't have any back side tools such as alox, bantam and recruit. A third pin is still needed (the one in the center) to keep the back spring in place.

Probably rivets here meant bushings on 2 pins out of 3?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi jaya_man and Huntsman,

Bushings! This is what I meant when I was referring to rivets! I was using them interchangeably unfortunately.

The original spirit of my observation still stands though. My bantam and the bantam that was the subject of the youtube () video I posted earlier shows three sets of bushings and one back spring pin (four pins total like a regular SAK with back tools). The third (middle) set of bushing on my bantam looks to serve no purpose but to add the extra attachment point for the scales. While looking between the liners, this pin (I was calling it a brass rod in my original post) is just floating in there with nothing even touching it except the liners on either side. My waiter shows the same pin, but the back spring is butt up against it. Interestingly, I didn't realize that that back tools pivots around what would normally be a back spring pin on the non back tool SAKs. It seems that pivot deserves a bushing also, but that should probably be a subject of another post.

Like the wiki says, I believe at one point, the bantam only had two sets of bushings and one back spring pin since the third set of bushings/pin was not necessary since there are no back tools. But in the attached screenshots you can clearly see that there is indeed a third bushing set along with a back spring pin on a newer bantam.

Agree... In some mod threads, there was some sort of discussions on the third pin with bushing. It serves as some kind of stopper for backsprings with backside tools as there are no pins going through them.

As to why bantams and possibly recruit have a third bushing nowadays is baffling... anyone's guess is as good as ours...


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[mcrib]

Agree... In some mod threads, there was some sort of discussions on the third pin with bushing. It serves as some kind of stopper for backsprings with backside tools as there are no pins going through them.

As to why bantams and possibly recruit have a third bushing nowadays is baffling... anyone's guess is as good as ours...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi jaya_man,

I was feeling a little not so confident about the Bantam after reading a couple comments about the lack of third bushing on the Bantams. I thought the cellidor scales would spontaneously pop off while using it or the feel would be weird since it was attached at only two points. But I'm glad to know that the current bantam cellidors are attached more securely by the standard three points.

I recently acquired an alox solo which also seems to fall victim to the modular-ish design of SAKs. The blade isn't exactly centered; I'm guessing to make room for another tool that would normally sit opposite from the blade on the single layer.

Yep JM - Of course - Too true - The middle pin is the pivot !! So a spring would not even stay in place if there were only two pins!!

It's a mistake in the Wiki - I am going to change it

Thanks again mcrib, welcome, and great introduction to MTo - Correcting the Wiki - 

Hi Huntsman,

In regards to the wiki, it seems that the newer Bantams, like the one I have, does in fact have three bushing sets and one back spring pin (four sets of rivets)  just like every other 84mm SAK with back tools. So it no longer differs in that respect.

[VICMAN]

Interesting info -Thank you

I think you need a few (5) posts before you can send a PM
And let us know the answer here folks and I can update the wiki if neccy.
FYI The wiki is largely maintained by members here.

And glad to hear about your combi tool. I tried the same on a can opener SD and broke off the tip ....... was not happy

Thanks for the clarification Huntsman. I was not aware that a new member had to wait to send a message.

[jaya_man]

Agree... In some mod threads, there was some sort of discussions on the third pin with bushing. It serves as some kind of stopper for backsprings with backside tools as there are no pins going through them.

As to why bantams and possibly recruit have a third bushing nowadays is baffling... anyone's guess is as good as ours...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi jaya_man,

I was feeling a little not so confident about the Bantam after reading a couple comments about the lack of third bushing on the Bantams. I thought the cellidor scales would spontaneously pop off while using it or the feel would be weird since it was attached at only two points. But I'm glad to know that the current bantam cellidors are attached more securely by the standard three points.

I recently acquired an alox solo which also seems to fall victim to the modular-ish design of SAKs. The blade isn't exactly centered; I'm guessing to make room for another tool that would normally sit opposite from the blade on the single layer.

Yep JM - Of course - Too true - The middle pin is the pivot !! So a spring would not even stay in place if there were only two pins!!

It's a mistake in the Wiki - I am going to change it

Thanks again mcrib, welcome, and great introduction to MTo - Correcting the Wiki - 

Hi Huntsman,

In regards to the wiki, it seems that the newer Bantams, like the one I have, does in fact have three bushing sets and one back spring pin (four sets of rivets)  just like every other 84mm SAK with back tools. So it no longer differs in that respect.

The Alox Solo is supposed to have a symmetrical shape. Although not perfectly symmetrical... The Solo's blade on mine is slightly thicker towards the tip compared to other 93mm models...

Definitely hard to get a symmetrical prefect Solo blade


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[Simyo]

My guess for the third rivet is to keep the scales more firmly attached now that the celidor is thinned out and semi skeletonized to save material.  On the two rivet recruits the scales can pull away in the middle when you are using the side layer tools.  Also, I'm sure the machines are all set to it for other models so it was one less change to be made.

[Huntsman]

I updated the rivets/bushings paragraph in the Wiki again to indicate the move from three to four rivets - and moved it to History.

Not 100% happy with it - As the paragraph is a little misleading - It kind of implies that the backside tools are attached to the fourth rivet - which they are not !!
They are attached to the rivet without a bushing that the older three riveted Bantam definitely has present.

But I did not want to explain all this in the Wiki !
If any other editors want to update please do so
Or if anyone here can think of a clearer concise way to express it please let me know in this thread and I can revise!!

[jaya_man]

For someone who mods/restores SAKs, rivet explanation makes sense...for the rest of the users, not too sure... kinda tricky...

The third pin either holds backsprings or backtools in place.

The 4th pin is actually needed to retain blade layer and opener layer backsprings in place... These backsprings are not physically attached to the SAK.. their just floating and keeps its position through tension from the tools on each end and the backtool...

Think I just made a blurry explanation


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[Syph007]

For someone who mods/restores SAKs, rivet explanation makes sense...for the rest of the users, not too sure... kinda tricky...

The third pin either holds backsprings or backtools in place.

The 4th pin is actually needed to retain blade layer and opener layer backsprings in place... These backsprings are not physically attached to the SAK.. their just floating and keeps its position through tension from the tools on each end and the backtool...

Think I just made a blurry explanation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep the 4th pin is only to prevent the springs that float from moving laterally.  You can use a sak without one but after opening and closing the blade a few times that spring will start walking.

The 3th (middle) pivot is critical regardless of backtools as its the fulcrum point for the spring to bend against to function as a spring.

[Huntsman]

Thanks Syph and J-M - Got it now - I think... 

But don't you mean longitudinally - As in along the length of the knife?
Or do you mean from the bottom (back side tools) towards the top - Open part of SAK.

Laterally to me means left to right - So from side to side in the SAK which they cannot do because of the liners and rivets?
Or have I got it totally wrong?
... Think I'd better steer clear of updating anything like this in the Wiki!!

Clever little things these SAKs aren't they? So much design into such a tiny tool.   

[Syph007]

Thanks Syph and J-M - Got it now - I think... 

But don't you mean longitudinally - As in along the length of the knife?
Or do you mean from the bottom (back side tools) towards the top - Open part of SAK.

Laterally to me means left to right - So from side to side in the SAK which they cannot do because of the liners and rivets?
Or have I got it totally wrong?
... Think I'd better steer clear of updating anything like this in the Wiki!!

Clever little things these SAKs aren't they? So much design into such a tiny tool.

Yes thats the word I wanted.