Non- (Or at Least Less-Than) Lethal Weapons and Tools

[Mechanickal]

Years ago at a show I experienced one of the fog systems and I thought it was a great concept, but I had a few thoughts.

Most importantly- could it fill the area fast enough to keep the intruder from getting to an exit?  And if so, are you then liable for injuries to the intruder as he flails around looking for an exit, falls over something and breaks his leg?  Not to mention the damages to the computer equipment/display cases etc that he takes down as well.

I also thought that the system was too limited- the fog is a nice touch but the bad guy could still navigate by touch and memory and escape.  What you need to do is disorient them further by then having white noise, sirens, flashing lights, pre-recorded dogs barking etc playing randomly from different corners of the room so the intruder turns around repeatedly until they are completely lost and confused.

Speaking of dogs, given that they are able to navigate largely by sound and scent, I wonder how well a dog would be able to manage in a situation like that, obviously without the distracting sounds.  It could add yet another level of deterrent to have someone realize that once they are completely disoriented they could be then grabbed and dragged out by a police dog.   

Imagine how upsetting sheer disorientation would be, then add in an unseen predatory animal grabbing you and dragging you off into the fog!  You could go a long way to solving break ins completely with systems like that! 

Def

Generaly, a burglar rushes inside, not memorising the room. Simply because they don't need to. They'll just need to know where the exit is.
The sheer panic will throw any remaining memorisation out the door.
Time: 3-4 sec. to fill a large gas station shop.
Escaping by touch? If you're in a room escape game, yes. If you're doing something illegal you won't be keeping your mind straight and just touch your way out.

A perfume store in my client list had a break-in last year.
Zero visibility in 2 seconds. The register wasn't touched yet it stands on the first row in the store.
In their panic they damaged stuff, but like my client stated: "insurance will cover it and at least those a-holes didn't get it. The surprise effect and the huge cloud moving towards you is just plain frightening. Not to mention the hissing sound of the gas release

Liability: is it your responsibility if a burglar misses a step because of a slippy doormat, and breaks his leg?

Keep in mind, installing this system is NOT meant to capture burglars! It's meant to protect the property/people by removing the ability to see, causing burglars/robbers to flee.

Dogs: a dog will not enter a room where the generator went off. Period.
The smoke and smell (a strange minty odour) raises to many red flags against the dog's instinct to go in.
At the same perfumer the police dog (which is highly trained I'd guess) simply went 'till the front door, barking.

And yes, we install a 120Db siren inside the room too

As far as I can tell, not a single client  who had this system installed suffered from a break in where the intruders managed to get any loot.
This makes it the most effectice system we can legaly install just below the 10.000V wires we can mount behind the property fences, coupled to the system.

You'll get zapped of the fence and the alarm will be set off before you managed to get on the property.
Obviously this is only an option where you've got a private terrain and not just a small store in the middle of a city.

[Vidar]

Ultrasonic pain field and an ion ray gun... did you forget to throw an anal probe and space aliens in there somewhere or am I missing something? 

 

Not sure where to find space alians (duh..  ..space of course..), but that anal probe seems like a good idea. What can I say - I was kind of annoyed...

I do like the fog concept, but likely for smaller areas like jewelry shops and such?

[Mechanickal]

Ultrasonic pain field and an ion ray gun... did you forget to throw an anal probe and space aliens in there somewhere or am I missing something? 

 

Not sure where to find space alians (duh..  ..space of course..), but that anal probe seems like a good idea. What can I say - I was kind of annoyed...

I do like the fog concept, but likely for smaller areas like jewelry shops and such?

For large areas there's the possibility to mount multiple ceiling mounted generators.
A generator can keep running untill it's cartridge is empty, which is about 60sec. So a larger area can be filled with 1 generator but it'll take longer to do so.
Usualy when the time needed to gain zero visibility takes over 5-6sec., we opt to install a second generator opposite of the other.

[Vidar]

I guess a few key questions about these smoke screens are whether or not the smoke itself might be a problem later on? Clothes, machines, electrics, computers? Swiss multi tools? 

I assume it might trigger the fire alarm too, but that might just be a bonus.

Any rough idea of the costs?

[Mechanickal]

I guess a few key questions about these smoke screens are whether or not the smoke itself might be a problem later on? Clothes, machines, electrics, computers? Swiss multi tools? 

I assume it might trigger the fire alarm too, but that might just be a bonus.

Any rough idea of the costs?

It will trigger the fire alarm, yes.
It will NOT damage anything. The smoke is build from 2 components. One of them is alcohol.
This means the smoke will vanish in air after about 30-50min depending on the amount of ventilation.

Cost installed by the company I work for is around €2000 which will include the all around intrusion detection, sirens, keypad, etc IF all the cables are already in place.

[Aloha]

The fog systems are neat and adding in disorienting sounds is that much better.  Is the hopes the police make it to the property to arrest the burglar?  I think a "safe" room would also be a good idea in a store setting.  Are automatic locks for the exits part of the system?  I'd imagine one burglar would be able to escape?   

[Mechanickal]

The fog systems are neat and adding in disorienting sounds is that much better.  Is the hopes the police make it to the property to arrest the burglar?  I think a "safe" room would also be a good idea in a store setting.  Are automatic locks for the exits part of the system?  I'd imagine one burglar would be able to escape?   

The goal is to send them running because of the panic reaction or at least making it impossible for them to grab anything.
They simply don't expect this to happen.
Doors remain open for 2 reasons:
1) Never corner an armed criminal when you've got nothing to fend with (this is Europe, no guns)
2) the law states that you are not allowed to install an automated system that will make it harder for emergency services to enter your building. Which means that the fog system is not completely in sync with the law either, but it's an approved one (just like high voltage wires installed by a speSmurfpillsed company)

So yes, the burglar/robber can run but at least you live to tell about it and he robbed nothing from you.
Even when caught, they'll probably be out the next day. Trial will start 2-3 years later and he'll get 3 years in jail... with 3 years of probation. Which means if he does something else somewhere in the next 3 years, he'll go to jail. Otherwise he's free to go.
If he missbehaves withing these 3 years he'll go to jail, but if he's a good guy there, he can apply for an early leave after 1/3 of his scentence which means he'd be out in a year.

If you shoot him in your store (when you're a rare case who has a gun license) you're guaranteed to go to jail for about 8-10 years... if he survived, that is.

Yes! Our legal system is crazy.

[Aloha]

Thanks for the explanation.  I have no opinion honestly in how other states let alone countries make their laws.   
I am a firm believer in dogs for security.  Many in areas of my city use dogs to guard their homes.  In a business setting however, not so sure that works.   The fog is a good idea.     

[ThePeacent]

while I am partial to the pepper spray myself, let's not ignore the possinility of using your multitool as a fist load, or, if opened (especially the flicker models), as a kubaton or pressure point made of solid steel

[WoodsDuck]

while I am partial to the pepper spray myself, let's not ignore the possinility of using your multitool as a fist load, or, if opened (especially the flicker models), as a kubaton or pressure point made of solid steel

(Image removed from quote.)

Definitely better than nothing if you find yourself in such a situation 

[Mechanickal]

Thanks for the explanation.  I have no opinion honestly in how other states let alone countries make their laws.   
I am a firm believer in dogs for security.  Many in areas of my city use dogs to guard their homes.  In a business setting however, not so sure that works.   The fog is a good idea.   

Yes, I meet alot of people who tell me the same.
But when I ask them "if you're on vacation for 2 weeks, the dog stays home by himself?"  it usualy gets awfully quiet

[Syncop8r]

Are automatic locks for the exits part of the system?  I'd imagine one burglar would be able to escape?

I imagine that would conflict with fire safety regulations.

[Aloha]

Are automatic locks for the exits part of the system?  I'd imagine one burglar would be able to escape?

I imagine that would conflict with fire safety regulations.

My line of thinking was apprehension.  I can see why this would not make sense in many aspects.  I guess as long as merchandise was not taken and more importantly no one was hurt would be more important. 

[Kampfer]

Just order a Fast Strike (http://faststrikedefense.com/about/), I'd give it a review after some testing.

[G-Dizzle]

Its good to have the option to use less lethal force if the situation dictates

[Syncop8r]

Is that a sex toy?

[G-Dizzle]

Is that a sex toy?

[Don Pablo]

  Such a blunt way to put it.

I was thinking giant Fisher Bullet or giant sharpie kind of marker.

[Kampfer]

Is that a sex toy?

It is a fart preventer

[Don Pablo]

Is that a sex toy?

It is a fart preventer

So it's a... Plug? 

[Vidar]

It does look a lot like a horny remover I saw once. (That is an underutilized and possibly unrecognized term outside of a translating company in China. They apparently work for a company making lots of horny removers. Horns must be a big issue in China?  )

Might be used for podging too?

[ironraven]

I have a friend that in college carried a, uhm, irr... marital aid? Yeah, that is the euphemism I want. Heavy, floppy, about a foot and half long, and built for two. Very, uhm, mushroomy. She could put that in her bag, and if anyone saw it, they'd be too embarrassed to say anything, but it was her defense tool. It would have hit like a length of inch and a half rubber hose filled with sand. And probably left very distinctive bruises.

About the head and neck.

Very hard bruises to explain.

Saw her over the weekend and then I saw the thread had updated. She is as fiesty as she is short- and she lies when she says she's 4'10".

[WoodsDuck]

I have a friend that in college carried a, uhm, irr... marital aid? Yeah, that is the euphemism I want. Heavy, floppy, about a foot and half long, and built for two. Very, uhm, mushroomy. She could put that in her bag, and if anyone saw it, they'd be too embarrassed to say anything, but it was her defense tool. It would have hit like a length of inch and a half rubber hose filled with sand. And probably left very distinctive bruises.

About the head and neck.

Very hard bruises to explain.

Saw her over the weekend and then I saw the thread had updated. She is as fiesty as she is short- and she lies when she says she's 4'10".

Is she available? 

[Lynn LeFey]

I carry... No, Raven, NOT a giant rubbery 'pal'.

I carry pepper spray. It might work against humans, but did nothing against pitbulls.

Given my 'druthers, I'd have carried a collapsible baton. But, as others have said, I'm licensed and allowed to carry a frickin pistol, but NOT a collapsible baton.

I'm very seriously considering getting a walking stick.

[WoodsDuck]

I carry... No, Raven, NOT a giant rubbery 'pal'.

I carry pepper spray. It might work against humans, but did nothing against pitbulls.

Given my 'druthers, I'd have carried a collapsible baton. But, as others have said, I'm licensed and allowed to carry a frickin pistol, but NOT a collapsible baton.

I'm very seriously considering getting a walking stick.

Cold Steel has a line of walking sticks (and a shillelagh!) that should be a nasty surprise for an attacker.

[Don Pablo]

I have a friend that in college carried a, uhm, irr... marital aid? Yeah, that is the euphemism I want. Heavy, floppy, about a foot and half long, and built for two. Very, uhm, mushroomy. She could put that in her bag, and if anyone saw it, they'd be too embarrassed to say anything, but it was her defense tool. It would have hit like a length of inch and a half rubber hose filled with sand. And probably left very distinctive bruises.

About the head and neck.

Very hard bruises to explain.

Saw her over the weekend and then I saw the thread had updated. She is as fiesty as she is short- and she lies when she says she's 4'10".

A foot and a half long? I feel so inadequate... 

[Mechanickal]

I have a friend that in college carried a, uhm, irr... marital aid? Yeah, that is the euphemism I want. Heavy, floppy, about a foot and half long, and built for two. Very, uhm, mushroomy. She could put that in her bag, and if anyone saw it, they'd be too embarrassed to say anything, but it was her defense tool. It would have hit like a length of inch and a half rubber hose filled with sand. And probably left very distinctive bruises.

About the head and neck.

Very hard bruises to explain.

Saw her over the weekend and then I saw the thread had updated. She is as fiesty as she is short- and she lies when she says she's 4'10".

A foot and a half long? I feel so inadequate... 

[Don Pablo]

I have a friend that in college carried a, uhm, irr... marital aid? Yeah, that is the euphemism I want. Heavy, floppy, about a foot and half long, and built for two. Very, uhm, mushroomy. She could put that in her bag, and if anyone saw it, they'd be too embarrassed to say anything, but it was her defense tool. It would have hit like a length of inch and a half rubber hose filled with sand. And probably left very distinctive bruises.

About the head and neck.

Very hard bruises to explain.

Saw her over the weekend and then I saw the thread had updated. She is as fiesty as she is short- and she lies when she says she's 4'10".

A foot and a half long? I feel so inadequate... 

45cm

[ducttapetech]

I have a friend that in college carried a, uhm, irr... marital aid? Yeah, that is the euphemism I want. Heavy, floppy, about a foot and half long, and built for two. Very, uhm, mushroomy. She could put that in her bag, and if anyone saw it, they'd be too embarrassed to say anything, but it was her defense tool. It would have hit like a length of inch and a half rubber hose filled with sand. And probably left very distinctive bruises.

About the head and neck.

Very hard bruises to explain.

Saw her over the weekend and then I saw the thread had updated. She is as fiesty as she is short- and she lies when she says she's 4'10".

[Aloha]

  "leave very distinctive bruises"