Do yo carry a knife/MT for self defense?

[lister]

To be fair to guns all these test are done with a knife already drawn and ready to use. Have both parties draw their weapons at the same time and then tell me what you would rather have in a fight.

Also, do a test where a gun is already drawn and the knife isn't...
 

[glenfiddich1983]

Pulling out a weapon as self defense should only be done as a last resort and only if you're really familiar in using it. And when I say familiar using it, I mean using it against another person. Anyone can train using a gun or knife on a practice target, but for most persons there is a big threshold in using a weapon to actually injure or kill another person. And that's a good thing! The problem is that when you pull out your weapon for self defense, you're probably still hesistant about this, while the person you're defending yourself against has already made the decision to apply violence. This means you're already starting with the "mental" odds being against you.

Also, the moment you're pulling a weapon as self defense it means a definitive escalation of the situation. After this, chances to resolve the situation in a more peaceful manner are dramatically reduced.

The nasty thing about using a knife as self defense is that you're bringing yourself very close to your opponent, while distance is by far the best defense. Being close you make yourself prone to his attacks and opens the possibility for him to take your knife and use it against you and that's the last thing you want, a knife can be a far more dangerous weapon than a gun. If you don't believe this, talk to an ER surgeon. The wounds are so much more dangerous and complicated, and while a gun shot victim will often have one or two wounds, knife fight victims can have wounds adding up in the dozens meaning more damage and blood loss.

[Mechanickal]

Not as a primary reason, but I know it's there should the need arise.

When I know I'm going somewhere I don't like to be (for work, not volunteraly) I do tend to grab my Charge that day for it's OHO blade.

[4everYoung]

I've tried to read these comments and stay out of this debate, but I must make this distinction for my own sanity.

Self defense is actually defending ones self against an attacker. Any sort of defense is an act which permits you to stand your position whether it is a physical position as in combat or in a debate if ideas. Therefore when speaking of self defense it is important to know that running away is NOT self defense. Running away is retreating. Retreat is NOT a form of self defense.

If you are in a defensive situation that means you have chosen to use some sort of resistive tactic against the aggressor. Choosing to run away would be a clear cut retreat. But retreat may still yield a need for a defensive position if the aggressor overtakes you.

Speaking generally about the animal kingdom, when we are faced with an aggressor or even a perceived threat an animal reacts first with an intimidation technique to show ones willingness to engage.
K9s display their teeth, felines do the same and add in claws. Porcupines puff up their quills. Snakes display their fangs. The point is, a display of intimidation is a form of defense. So a human displaying a blade, gun, or other item intended as a weapon at an aggressor is the same principle. Therefore you can not simply say that to pull a weapon indicates an act of intent to use it. By that logic, simply carrying it would indicate that, or even owning it and never carrying it as well. Its logically wrong to assert that. You can bludgeon someone to death without any weapons, simply by using your own body.

Now to the morality of this whole debate. What we are really discussing in a self defensive position is whether it is morally right to take up arms against some to protect what one considers valuable. To that end I will appeal to the response of one of the most important figures in history. Jesus spoke saying" if you don't have a sword, sell you coat and buy one." To his disciples before he was taken away.  It certainly wasn't because he wanted them to become collectors or use them to spread butter on toast.

So I will certainly answer in the affirmative to your question. I carry an MT for self defense. I hope I never have to use it for such, but I have it in the event I need to. Even if I didn't use its blade it could be a deterrent or even a bludgeoning device.
I did not carry tools or weapons for retreat. My retreat would be my shoes or a vehicle.

[Kampfer]

[glenfiddich1983]

[glenfiddich1983]

[Kampfer]

I did it is s hurry. 

[glenfiddich1983]

[hiraethus]

I'm pretty sure he spelt smurf wrong too. 

[Ron Who]

 

[Kampfer]

 

Fixed

[AimlessWanderer]

Fixed

Nearly..... 

[stugumby]

I carry a MT for work purposes, and also work in the security industry. My company does not allow concealed carry or weapons on the clients property. So I carry a Leatherman  Z rex tool as a vehicle extraction tool.
I would not carry a big knife for a self defense weapon myself, but depending on what or where you are it could be handy, Legal protections etc for police and military but as a regular civillian not for me. If in a terrorist attack type situation then it would be do what you have to to survive and hope for the best legally. It would be like carrying a small pry bar and saying i have the right to enable myself to get out of a bad situation by breaking out of a bldg instead of into it. Capabilities vs intentions, what a legal minefield that would be.

[mikekoz]

     I do not carry a knife or multitool as a weapon. As a matter of fact, I try to avoid buying knives that look like weapons or look too "tacticool!". I think any mutitool would make a poor weapon anyways. I carry one assisted opening knife on the weekends, and if I HAD to as a last resort, I would use it as a weapon, but that is not why I carry it.

[Fortytwo]

I don't, I might like to imagine myself as doing it when carrying something suitable for the task (mainly 130mm Ranger) but since I only carry that one while out in nature the risk of finding myself in a position to use it is minimal.

And even if came to it I probably wouldn't, knife fighting seems really messy and Kampfer noted that something that would be able to keep an opponent away seems more suitable, like a bike or a chair.

[Gerhard Gerber]

Speaking generally about the animal kingdom, when we are faced with an aggressor or even a perceived threat an animal reacts first with an intimidation technique to show ones willingness to engage.
K9s display their teeth, felines do the same and add in claws. Porcupines puff up their quills. Snakes display their fangs. The point is, a display of intimidation is a form of defense. So a human displaying a blade, gun, or other item intended as a weapon at an aggressor is the same principle. Therefore you can not simply say that to pull a weapon indicates an act of intent to use it. By that logic, simply carrying it would indicate that, or even owning it and never carrying it as well. Its logically wrong to assert that. You can bludgeon someone to death without any weapons, simply by using your own body.

The one and only bit of martial arts training (apart from drinking beer and watching UFC) was an invite to a class, sorry, cannot remember the name of the code(?)
It was developed by monks and heavily orientated towards self-defense........I was stunned by how effective it is, I outweighed the Sensei by 80kg+ and I could not hold onto him, and he could have put me down....

Their approach is simple, in order to defend yourself you have to stop the stronger bigger attacker from coming back at you, because at some point he could find a hole in your defense.
They re-direct the attackers force ingeniously.

I believe people in London threw beer mugs 

Kampfer  like the bicycle self defense.

[pfrsantos]

I'd rather face a gun than a knife.

Guns may be unloaded / Knives always work
Guns may have safety on / Knives have no safety
Guns run out of ammo / Knives always work
Guns may malfunction / Knives always work
The attacker with a gun may not know how to use it properly / Knives are used everyday by everybody since childhood
The attacker with a gun may miss when shooting you / Knives have a better chance of inflicting wounds
You can grab a gun / You could grab a knife, but you'd cut yourself doing it

[cbl51]

I'd rather face a gun than a knife.

Guns may be unloaded / Knives always work
Guns may have safety on / Knives have no safety
Guns run out of ammo / Knives always work
Guns may malfunction / Knives always work
The attacker with a gun may not know how to use it properly / Knives are used everyday by everybody since childhood
The attacker with a gun may miss when shooting you / Knives have a better chance of inflicting wounds
You can grab a gun / You could grab a knife, but you'd cut yourself doing it

Very bad theory to go with.

Having grown up in a not so good section of Washington D.C. and having a adolescence that consisted of running with some not so good people, I can tell you that most street thugs know how to use a gun. It will be loaded, they will be close so's not to miss, and they won't hesitate to shoot because they have already made up their mind what they will do. Trying to grab a gun or fight with someone with a gun is a VERY bad idea. Let me tell you about Al.

Al was a guy back in the neighborhood. Kind if  friend of a friend kind of acquaintance kind of thing. Truth is he was an arrogant SOB. He was one pod these upteenth degree black belt karate guys that won a lot of tournaments, had the glass case full of trophies at home, and was one of the teachers at a local karate studio. His day job was a government office cog in downtown D.C.

One evening he's rinding the METRO home from work, gets off at his stop at the Silver Spring METO station and with some other commuters walks to the parking garbage to get his car. They get off the elevator and theres this little ghetto kid, late teens according to the other witnesses, skinny like a crack addict, and with a gun. Shiny little .25 auto, and tells everyone to toss their wallets down and get back on the elevator and leave. Okay, he's got the gun. Most people toss their wallets and go to get back on the elevator. Not black belt Al.

Al is very close, so he tried a good old Chuck Norris style kick tot he ghetto kids gun hand, misses, and the kid shoots him once right in the chest. Al, takes one step towards him, then falls flat on is face, mutters "Oh smurfe!" and dies right there on the dirty cement floor of the parking garage. The little .25acp round hit him right where it counted. His umpteenth degree black belt wasn't much help. The ghetto kid planned what he was going to do and he did it. From growing up in that kind of city, I know street thugs would buy/steel a gun, and try tout in a vacant lot, a spot down by the river bank, whatever. They know how to load and fire that gun. Having a plan that his gun may be unloaded, may not work, may not hit you is a very good way to get killed. The street of Chicago, Washington D.C. New York city, Baltimore, and others are filled with criminals who have a gun and have already used it on someone, but just not have got caught yet. That guy with the saturday night special in your face may already have killed someone else in his criminal career, and you'll just be another notch.

Fighting someone who has a weapon and is prepared to use it is a very bad idea. Even if Al had a gun on him, it would not have helped because the bad guy already had his weapon out and ready, and he came with intent to get your money or kill you. Same with a knife. But at least with a knife, it can't hurt you if it doesn't touch you. Just get the heck away from a knife, run, use a bar stool, seat/sofa cushion, book, picture frame off a wall, pot, trash can, trash can lid, fire extinguisher, lamp, umbrella, cane/walking stick, beer pitcher, ANYTHING, to black the knife while you retreat and get out of there!

Guns are bad news because of the reach. Knives are very bad if they can get to you. If you don't have your life's savings in your wallet, just toss it to them and leave. Your drivers license and credit card should be in a different pocket anyways, so you'll just be out your small cash.

Now, if you life where you can carry a gun and have taken the truing and got a license, things may be different. Maybe. Street criminals tend to operate in packs these days, with at least tow to one odds on you, maybe three. While you're dealing with the guy right in front of uyou, his lookout/buddy may shoot you in the back. Just avoid the bad parts of town and remember that nothing good happens after midnight around bars.

The absolutely best weapon in any city is to have very good situational awareness. Be aware who is around you, scan the sidewalk in the direction you're going and see who's a threat. Use profiling. You won't be robbed by a guy in a Brooks Brothers suit carrying an attaché case. Nor will the two middle age women be threat. The young guy in the hoodie loitering and watching people is to be avoided. Change direction or cross the street. Living most of my life in a city with high crime, somehow I avoided being mugged or assaulted. Now I live in Texas and have a license to carry a pistol, but still practice situational awareness and plan where to be and not be. Easy to do.

But carrying some little three or four inch knife thinking you'll fight off the bad guys is just plain delusional. Never get that close, use pepper spray, Kimber peppper blaster, and a good blackthorn walking stick and use them to cover your retreat. If a gun gets pointed at you, just give up your dummy wallet.

[Kampfer]

Lots good insights here. 

[pfrsantos]

I'd rather face a gun than a knife.

Guns may be unloaded / Knives always work
Guns may have safety on / Knives have no safety
Guns run out of ammo / Knives always work
Guns may malfunction / Knives always work
The attacker with a gun may not know how to use it properly / Knives are used everyday by everybody since childhood
The attacker with a gun may miss when shooting you / Knives have a better chance of inflicting wounds
You can grab a gun / You could grab a knife, but you'd cut yourself doing it

Very bad theory to go with.

Having grown up in a not so good section of Washington D.C. and having a adolescence that consisted of running with some not so good people, I can tell you that most street thugs know how to use a gun. It will be loaded, they will be close so's not to miss, and they won't hesitate to shoot because they have already made up their mind what they will do. Trying to grab a gun or fight with someone with a gun is a VERY bad idea. Let me tell you about Al.

(...)

Fighting someone who has a weapon and is prepared to use it is a very bad idea. Even if Al had a gun on him, it would not have helped because the bad guy already had his weapon out and ready, and he came with intent to get your money or kill you. Same with a knife. But at least with a knife, it can't hurt you if it doesn't touch you. Just get the heck away from a knife, run, use a bar stool, seat/sofa cushion, book, picture frame off a wall, pot, trash can, trash can lid, fire extinguisher, lamp, umbrella, cane/walking stick, beer pitcher, ANYTHING, to black the knife while you retreat and get out of there!

Guns are bad news because of the reach. Knives are very bad if they can get to you. If you don't have your life's savings in your wallet, just toss it to them and leave. Your drivers license and credit card should be in a different pocket anyways, so you'll just be out your small cash.

(...)
The absolutely best weapon in any city is to have very good situational awareness. Be aware who is around you, scan the sidewalk in the direction you're going and see who's a threat. Use profiling. You won't be robbed by a guy in a Brooks Brothers suit carrying an attaché case. Nor will the two middle age women be threat. The young guy in the hoodie loitering and watching people is to be avoided. Change direction or cross the street. Living most of my life in a city with high crime, somehow I avoided being mugged or assaulted. Now I live in Texas and have a license to carry a pistol, but still practice situational awareness and plan where to be and not be. Easy to do.

But carrying some little three or four inch knife thinking you'll fight off the bad guys is just plain delusional. Never get that close, use pepper spray, Kimber peppper blaster, and a good blackthorn walking stick and use them to cover your retreat. If a gun gets pointed at you, just give up your dummy wallet.

Absolutely right!

I'm not advocating trying to wrestle someone armed attacking you. I'd give my wallet, money, car keys, phone, whatever!

My point was that on a situation where you are going to be killed for sure and can't escape, I feel a knife would be more dangerous to face than a gun. There are more things that can go wrong with a gun than there are with a knife. Not saying it will happen, just that there's that possibility.

Still, either situation is better avoided by awareness. Even just one unarmed person (yup, man or woman!) attacking you could kill you and should be avoided.

[pfrsantos]

Another good point raised by Carl. Sometimes people train martial arts, fighting sports, get to be pretty good, get black belts and lots of dans, win tournaments and begin to think they can stand up against a threat in real life.

Well, YOU CAN'T!

Even in Vale-Tudo (Anything-Goes), probably the more "liberal" and "rule-free" combat, THERE ARE RULES! When you face a situation in the street, it's completely different! You can be the best of the world in tournaments, MMA fights, whatever. IT'S NOT REAL LIFE!

First (and best) defense I learned: don't be there! Avoid possible threatning situations, that's the only way to be safe. When I train, I don't care about belts. A belt is a piece of cloth. It doesn't matter if you're facing a white or black belt. Either one can beat you, depending on a lot of factors.

[lister]

I developed the following system, I call it nonlinear progressive overkill:

If your attacker is unarmed use a sword.

If your attacker caries a blade, blast him/her away with a gun.

If your attacker has a gun, blast him to a mythical bad place of your choosing with a tank.

If your attacker has a tank, nuke the smufr.

If your attacker has a nuke, destroy the universe he/she exists in, make sure you are no longer in said universe.

For now I never had a reason to develop the system any further... 

[Ron Who]

“Do not hurt where holding is enough;
do not wound where hurting is enough;
do not maim where wounding is enough;
and kill not where maiming is enough;
the greatest warrior is he who does not need to kill.”

― Stephen R. Donaldson, The Illearth War

[cbl51]

“Do not hurt where holding is enough;
do not wound where hurting is enough;
do not maim where wounding is enough;
and kill not where maiming is enough;
the greatest warrior is he who does not need to kill.”

― Stephen R. Donaldson, The Illearth War

That kind of pacifist stuff in my old neighborhood, would get you killed. It sounds nice in some fantasy, but theres two legged creatures around that only seem to resemble people. They are as vicious and evil as a rabid hyena, and shown the slightest mercy, will kill you and any with you. If someone comes at you with violence in mind, you have to respond in such a way as to leave them incapable of harming you or anyone else. This is why people carry guns. It's the ultimate playing field leveler.

[glenfiddich1983]

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns".

There's certainly truth in that.

[lister]

And my post was meant as a joke... 

I don't even carry anything sharper than a SAK so I would't be labelled as the violent knife guy... 

[Ron Who]

“Do not hurt where holding is enough;
do not wound where hurting is enough;
do not maim where wounding is enough;
and kill not where maiming is enough;
the greatest warrior is he who does not need to kill.”

― Stephen R. Donaldson, The Illearth War

That kind of pacifist stuff in my old neighborhood, would get you killed. It sounds nice in some fantasy, but theres two legged creatures around that only seem to resemble people. They are as vicious and evil as a rabid hyena, and shown the slightest mercy, will kill you and any with you. If someone comes at you with violence in mind, you have to respond in such a way as to leave them incapable of harming you or anyone else. This is why people carry guns. It's the ultimate playing field leveler.

That is exactly what the quote means. Use force if neccesary, but no excessive force.  And indeed it's from a fantasy novel.

In The Netherlands, killing someone in self defense will land you in jail unless you had no other options.

[Ron Who]

And my post was meant as a joke... 
...

That at least was obvious. 

[Ron Who]

"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns".

There's certainly truth in that.

Yes.

But the following is equally true:

In a world without guns, nobody will get shot.