Flying saucers! Happy 70th anniversary!

[magentus]

I think that most if not all sci-fi is based on us being far too immature as a species to engage in any meaningful relationship with whatever is out there!

Obviously it's your point of view Al, but given that most art, be it visual, physical, written or aural, is a manifestation of the artist(s) thinking beyond the physical realm to what (if anything) lies beyond, it's hardly a waste of time.

No Stonehenge, Pyramids, Mona Lisa, Apollo Rocket, Nazca lines, etc without people looking for extra meaning. I think we're hardwired to think esoterically.

[kirk13]

Can I just say this?

I'd started this thread as a cheap throw away thread,for maybe a couple of giggles. But a very big  for what's turned into a serious discussion! Well done MTo

[AimlessWanderer]

I think that most if not all sci-fi is based on us being far too immature as a species to engage in any meaningful relationship with whatever is out there!

Obviously it's your point of view Al, but given that most art, be it visual, physical, written or aural, is a manifestation of the artist(s) thinking beyond the physical realm to what (if anything) lies beyond, it's hardly a waste of time.

No Stonehenge, Pyramids, Mona Lisa, Apollo Rocket, Nazca lines, etc without people looking for extra meaning. I think we're hardwired to think esoterically.

Point taken, and given that I'm currently trying my hand at novel writing, I will of course be straying off-piste in terms of my usual thought processes, but for entertainment purposes only.  Straying into the realms of the unknown for amusement, is very different to doing so for meaning.

As to Stonehenge and the other things you refer to, I think they mean more to people who are already inquisitive of other worldly things, or who are maybe even hoping for more. I went to Stonehenge about three years ago. Interesting visitor centre, but the stones themselves were.... stones. Nothing mystical or emotive, probably because I wasn't hyping myself up enough that there would be. 

I genuinely don't want to take anything away from other people's personal journeys, but I have found that without having my own personal yearning for "something more", it's very difficult to feel anything wonderful from the relics of past civilisations who were themselves reaching out in some way or other. In essence, I can't personally relate to their awe and wonder of what it was they were striving to connect with - and therefore stacked boulders, straight lines, and other inherited works mean less to me than they do to others. As it turns out, for some people, fallen boulders are just fallen boulders.

I do look in awe at the raw power of the oceans, or the savagery of the winds, or the persistence of nature. Even a simple fire can be mesmerising and soothe the soul. I just have no need to look beyond what I can experience with my own senses. That said, I can of course enjoy a great story on a screen of in a book, and let my imagination run loose for a while as a playful escape, knowing I'll return back to the here and now when the story ends.

Again though, this is my own personal interactions with the space we share, and do not claim to have the monopoly on correct interpretation 

[Aloha]

Can I just say this?

I'd started this thread as a cheap throw away thread,for maybe a couple of giggles. But a very big  for what's turned into a serious discussion! Well done MTo

This has indeed become a good thread and discussion.  Well done all. 

[AimlessWanderer]

Ah, but why do they live in the sky? 

I'm completely agnostic about UFO's  - Never seen one myself, but I have seen many many things I can't explain and would be labelled as a lunatic if I voiced them on this forum. 

.... and that was just at a UK meet 

[Don Pablo]

Great discussion. 

I'd like to add to my last post.
Putting aside the argument about how many civilisations there are in our galaxy, its looking like interstellar travel is Expensive, with a big E, if it is possible.
Sleeper ships, generational ships, expensive and take years, if not centuries, to get anywhere.

Why go Earth to get resources? Water is abundant throughout the cosmos. There are asteroids mostly made of a single element, like iron, gold, uranium whatever. Mining these is a lot easier and cleaner than mining a planet. Nitrogen and other gasses can be found in some gas giants in larger quantities than exist on earth by far.
Oxygen can be made by tech or biology.

Some astronomers think that they found a diamond planet orbiting a pulsar. If that sort of thing could be possible, theres no reason to visit earth for resources.

So, if interstellar travel is expensive, and the resources you need can be found in other places in huuuge quantities, the only reason for aliens to visit earth is scientific curiosity.

And that last reason depends on how common intelligent life in the galaxy is.
If there is intelligent spacefaring life in every sector, then even scientific curiosity may not be a good enough reason to visit earth!

OTOH, if there are only a few other spacefaring civilisations out there in the galaxy, they have an extremely pressing reason to visit and make sure that we get a chance to mature.
In that case, any life anywhere would be precious beyond measure.

Even more so if we are alone.

[magentus]

 

I do look in awe at the raw power of the oceans, or the savagery of the winds, or the persistence of nature. Even a simple fire can be mesmerising and soothe the soul. I just have no need to look beyond what I can experience with my own senses

But look at how you are describing nature - imbibing it with human characteristics and esoteric properties. Why should the warmth of a fire soothe your soul? Because it is more than ' the rapid oxidation of a material in the exothermic chemical process of combustion, releasing heat, light, and various reaction products.' It has emotional properties and millennia of meaning to us.

You don't exist as a singular entity, you are linked to everyone and everything through ancestry and as part of an interdependant universal system: Earth, the milky way, galaxy, universe and all that lies beyond. Whether there is life out there or not, it's an extraordinary set of circumstances that brought us here.

Stonehenge isn't just stones, they are stones gathered from hundreds of miles away and brought to a specific place for a specific purpose that we don't even fully realise yet.

Silbury Hill was made by humans over a long time with great communal effort and we don't have a clue why.

I find this humbling and hopeful. That far back in our past we knew something that we've forgotten now - something vital to us, and I hope we remember it soon.

Even your writing- I find it difficult to believe you're making such an effort just for amusement - I would guess you're finding some meaning from it - a way to fit back in to society now your circumstances have changed, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Hell, most of the posts on the forum are us reaching out across the country, or the ocean or the world, to connect with someone else and find some meaning in what we do.

Really enjoying this post btw. 

 

[Grant Lamontagne]

It figures that Al isn't interested in aliens. There are already too many people on this planet he doesn't want to talk to, why add more? 

Def

[AimlessWanderer]

I do look in awe at the raw power of the oceans, or the savagery of the winds, or the persistence of nature. Even a simple fire can be mesmerising and soothe the soul. I just have no need to look beyond what I can experience with my own senses

But look at how you are describing nature - imbibing it with human characteristics and esoteric properties. Why should the warmth of a fire soothe your soul? Because it is more than ' the rapid oxidation of a material in the exothermic chemical process of combustion, releasing heat, light, and various reaction products.' It has emotional properties and millennia of meaning to us.

You don't exist as a singular entity, you are linked to everyone and everything through ancestry and as part of an interdependant universal system: Earth, the milky way, galaxy, universe and all that lies beyond. Whether there is life out there or not, it's an extraordinary set of circumstances that brought us here.

Stonehenge isn't just stones, they are stones gathered from hundreds of miles away and brought to a specific place for a specific purpose that we don't even fully realise yet.

Silbury Hill was made by humans over a long time with great communal effort and we don't have a clue why.

I find this humbling and hopeful. That far back in our past we knew something that we've forgotten now - something vital to us, and I hope we remember it soon.

Even your writing- I find it difficult to believe you're making such an effort just for amusement - I would guess you're finding some meaning from it - a way to fit back in to society now your circumstances have changed, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Hell, most of the posts on the forum are us reaching out across the country, or the ocean or the world, to connect with someone else and find some meaning in what we do.

Really enjoying this post btw. 

 

 

I don't find the likes of Stonehenge or ley lines overly fascinating, but I do find it fascinating that other people do.  I get more out of trying to understand what makes other people tick, and what they think they are searching for than I do out of the subject matter itself... if that makes sense.

As to why I am starting writing, it's because my ability to engage in other creative/productive endeavours have been cut short. Not a matter of reaching out, but of reaching inward, and striving for self worth after losing the ability to do all the things I did before. The meaning of life is to make life meaningful, not just in terms of understanding, but of overcoming hurdles and of personal achievements. It's about fulfilling a purpose. We are still hunter gatherers on some level, and while we may not have to chase down wild animal for every meal, we still have to have achievements for the sake of our mental health. For some it's through family, for some it's striving for success according to their own criteria, for others it's just about getting through the day alive and unharmed. I was robbed of my previous feeling of purpose, and am now seeking out another.

This very much fits in with what I was saying before. I focus on my immediate surroundings, whereas others focus further afield for their answers. What may dwell beyond the stars, or beyond my existence here, or in any other unearthly topic may bring solace and meaning for some, but not for me. The fire warms me, cooks food, and the movement of the flames and twinkling embers are hypnotic and an aid to deeper thought. The stones arranged by a past civilisation catch bird crap and provide revenue for English Heritage 

If the knowledge that is lost was worth knowing, surely we'd have kept it. It stands to reason that what is lost is only lost because it's no longer relevant. Or maybe it was just total nonsense, and one day they finally figured that out. No, we don't know why they did much of what they did, but I can't understand why modern civilisation does a lot of what it does either. If I can't understand why people buy Biebers music or carry a SOG, why should I worry why folk thousands of years ago stacked pebbles?

We all find interest and meaning in different things though, and I encourage everyone to go on their own journey of discovery. 

[AimlessWanderer]

It figures that Al isn't interested in aliens. There are already too many people on this planet he doesn't want to talk to, why add more? 

Def

You know me so well 

[dks]

they are everywhere.....

[AimlessWanderer]

A Darwinian skating rink?

[dks]

...it claims to be a metro station, but you know better.....

[magentus]

It's clearly a UFO flying saucer landing pad made in readiness for First Contact with Space Aliens.

I for one welcome our Alien Overlords.

[AimlessWanderer]

...it claims to be a metro station, but you know better.....

Really? That makes a change  Normally I get told I'm talking crap, even by people who agree with me 

[dks]

With age comes wisdom and the respect of your peers

[AimlessWanderer]

Hmmm.... seems I bucked the trend on that one too 


  

[kirk13]

For what it's worth,here's my thoughts on the subject of UFOs...

I've been interested in the subject since I was a kid,and as a kid believed in the ETH(extraterrestrial hypothesis), and TBH I'd still love to believe that there is intelligent life out there,and it is more enlightened than us,but I can't really believe that they cross the gulfs of interstellar space just to mess with our heads(Douglas Adams and his teasers;or Alan Moore's DR&Quinch)

I do wonder if writers like John Keel and Jaques Valle were closer to the mark looking at the similarities between UFO lore,and folklore from around the world. There are very distinct similarities to fairy(sorry,the gentle folk ) abduction and grey alien abduction. It suggests either there's a parallel existence to ours that many of us encounter,but interpret differently through educational and cultural filters;or we have a built in psychological glitch,a software/wetware bug we are all susceptible to.

The other interesting idea I've heard is that the phenomenon of flying objects and lights is distinct and separate to that of alien encounter/abduction. It suggests that the aerial objects are a natural phenomenon we have yet to identify...

Now,like Mags,I've had my share of odd experiences,which have included seeing odd lights in the sky. As far as the lights go,I've stopped being bothered by what I saw,I now just feel privileged at having seen something out of the normal. As to the other stuff? Well it's beyond the scope of the thread,and may breach forum rules


Then again,it might just be the mice experimenting on us  

[Ron Who]

For what it's worth,here's my thoughts on the subject of UFOs...

I've been interested in the subject since I was a kid,and as a kid believed in the ETH(extraterrestrial hypothesis), and TBH I'd still love to believe that there is intelligent life out there,and it is more enlightened than us,but I can't really believe that they cross the gulfs of interstellar space just to mess with our heads(Douglas Adams and his teasers;or Alan Moore's DR&Quinch)

I do wonder if writers like John Keel and Jaques Valle were closer to the mark looking at the similarities between UFO lore,and folklore from around the world. There are very distinct similarities to fairy(sorry,the gentle folk ) abduction and grey alien abduction. It suggests either there's a parallel existence to ours that many of us encounter,but interpret differently through educational and cultural filters;or we have a built in psychological glitch,a software/wetware bug we are all susceptible to.

The other interesting idea I've heard is that the phenomenon of flying objects and lights is distinct and separate to that of alien encounter/abduction. It suggests that the aerial objects are a natural phenomenon we have yet to identify...

Now,like Mags,I've had my share of odd experiences,which have included seeing odd lights in the sky. As far as the lights go,I've stopped being bothered by what I saw,I now just feel privileged at having seen something out of the normal. As to the other stuff? Well it's beyond the scope of the thread,and may breach forum rules


Then again,it might just be the mice experimenting on us

Me too. I read a book by Erich Von Daeniken, don't remember which one, and made UFO photographs in a small homebrew studio setting, to prove that his could be faked.

Knowing how mindboggingly large our universe is, it seems unlikely that Earth is the only planet supporting life. Because of the distances involved, it also seems unlikely there will be any close encounters.

[Don Pablo]

For what it's worth,here's my thoughts on the subject of UFOs...

I've been interested in the subject since I was a kid,and as a kid believed in the ETH(extraterrestrial hypothesis), and TBH I'd still love to believe that there is intelligent life out there,and it is more enlightened than us,but I can't really believe that they cross the gulfs of interstellar space just to mess with our heads(Douglas Adams and his teasers;or Alan Moore's DR&Quinch)

I do wonder if writers like John Keel and Jaques Valle were closer to the mark looking at the similarities between UFO lore,and folklore from around the world. There are very distinct similarities to fairy(sorry,the gentle folk ) abduction and grey alien abduction. It suggests either there's a parallel existence to ours that many of us encounter,but interpret differently through educational and cultural filters;or we have a built in psychological glitch,a software/wetware bug we are all susceptible to.

The other interesting idea I've heard is that the phenomenon of flying objects and lights is distinct and separate to that of alien encounter/abduction. It suggests that the aerial objects are a natural phenomenon we have yet to identify...

Now,like Mags,I've had my share of odd experiences,which have included seeing odd lights in the sky. As far as the lights go,I've stopped being bothered by what I saw,I now just feel privileged at having seen something out of the normal. As to the other stuff? Well it's beyond the scope of the thread,and may breach forum rules


Then again,it might just be the mice experimenting on us

I'm sure that you know these already, but:

If it blinks and moves moderately fast in a straight line, thats an airplane.

If it doesn't blink and moves at a similar speed in a straight line, its the I.S.S or another satellite.

If its a "flare" kind of thing, thats an iridium flare, by a iridium satellite, or random flare by tumbling space junk. Looking up scheduled iridium flares can tell you the difference.

If it doesn't blink and streaks across the sky, shooting star.

Now:
Drones, small airplanes, spyplanes, fireflies, and the like can produce lights that don't blink (or blink), and don't move in a straight line.

Light changing speed? Usually illusion. Or Drone.
Changing brightness? Usually illusion too, or moving into a dimmer/brighter star field.

Now, which categories do your odd lights fit into? Or don't fit into for that matter.
Just curious. [Sorry  ]

[AimlessWanderer]

For what it's worth,here's my thoughts on the subject of UFOs...

I've been interested in the subject since I was a kid,and as a kid believed in the ETH(extraterrestrial hypothesis), and TBH I'd still love to believe that there is intelligent life out there,and it is more enlightened than us,but I can't really believe that they cross the gulfs of interstellar space just to mess with our heads(Douglas Adams and his teasers;or Alan Moore's DR&Quinch)

I do wonder if writers like John Keel and Jaques Valle were closer to the mark looking at the similarities between UFO lore,and folklore from around the world. There are very distinct similarities to fairy(sorry,the gentle folk ) abduction and grey alien abduction. It suggests either there's a parallel existence to ours that many of us encounter,but interpret differently through educational and cultural filters;or we have a built in psychological glitch,a software/wetware bug we are all susceptible to.

The other interesting idea I've heard is that the phenomenon of flying objects and lights is distinct and separate to that of alien encounter/abduction. It suggests that the aerial objects are a natural phenomenon we have yet to identify...

Now,like Mags,I've had my share of odd experiences,which have included seeing odd lights in the sky. As far as the lights go,I've stopped being bothered by what I saw,I now just feel privileged at having seen something out of the normal. As to the other stuff? Well it's beyond the scope of the thread,and may breach forum rules


Then again,it might just be the mice experimenting on us

I'm sure that you know these already, but:

If it blinks and moves moderately fast in a straight line, thats an airplane.

If it doesn't blink and moves at a similar speed in a straight line, its the I.S.S or another satellite.

If its a "flare" kind of thing, thats an iridium flare, by a iridium satellite, or random flare by tumbling space junk. Looking up scheduled iridium flares can tell you the difference.

If it doesn't blink and streaks across the sky, shooting star.

Now:
Drones, small airplanes, spyplanes, fireflies, and the like can produce lights that don't blink (or blink), and don't move in a straight line.

Light changing speed? Usually illusion. Or Drone.
Changing brightness? Usually illusion too, or moving into a dimmer/brighter star field.

Now, which categories do your odd lights fit into? Or don't fit into for that matter.
Just curious. [Sorry  ]

A friend on mine went to an outdoor concert many years ago. The friend he went with nudged him at some point and pointed to a strange green glow in the nights sky. They stared at it for a while trying to figure it out, and all of a sudden the light hurtled off in a straight line, far too fast for it to be an aircraft.

It was only when the concert finished and full stadium lighting came up, that he noticed the copper wires running over the stadium. A stage light had been reflecting off it and then moved hurtling the reflection along the wire, creating the illusion of a strange and impossibly fast craft in the sky.

[ironraven]

So... odd conversation at work today, that ends up tieing in with this.

Basically, someone claimed at that human-level AI was impossible. After the conversation about education and programming, I pointed out that even if this person was right, we'd never stop trying as a species. We've been trying since the golem and Pygmillion and the terra cotta soldiers. As a species, humans don't want to be alone. We adopted dogs and cats, but they aren't so great for conversation. We, as a species, want friends, because its a big universe full of scary.

Maybe that is why we want to find the nice, friendly aliens. So we're not alone when we look out into the black.

[kirk13]

So... odd conversation at work today, that ends up tieing in with this.

Basically, someone claimed at that human-level AI was impossible. After the conversation about education and programming, I pointed out that even if this person was right, we'd never stop trying as a species. We've been trying since the golem and Pygmillion and the terra cotta soldiers. As a species, humans don't want to be alone. We adopted dogs and cats, but they aren't so great for conversation. We, as a species, want friends, because its a big universe full of scary.

Maybe that is why we want to find the nice, friendly aliens. So we're not alone when we look out into the black.

  That is a really nice thought

[Don Pablo]

For what it's worth,here's my thoughts on the subject of UFOs...

I've been interested in the subject since I was a kid,and as a kid believed in the ETH(extraterrestrial hypothesis), and TBH I'd still love to believe that there is intelligent life out there,and it is more enlightened than us,but I can't really believe that they cross the gulfs of interstellar space just to mess with our heads(Douglas Adams and his teasers;or Alan Moore's DR&Quinch)

I do wonder if writers like John Keel and Jaques Valle were closer to the mark looking at the similarities between UFO lore,and folklore from around the world. There are very distinct similarities to fairy(sorry,the gentle folk ) abduction and grey alien abduction. It suggests either there's a parallel existence to ours that many of us encounter,but interpret differently through educational and cultural filters;or we have a built in psychological glitch,a software/wetware bug we are all susceptible to.

The other interesting idea I've heard is that the phenomenon of flying objects and lights is distinct and separate to that of alien encounter/abduction. It suggests that the aerial objects are a natural phenomenon we have yet to identify...

Now,like Mags,I've had my share of odd experiences,which have included seeing odd lights in the sky. As far as the lights go,I've stopped being bothered by what I saw,I now just feel privileged at having seen something out of the normal. As to the other stuff? Well it's beyond the scope of the thread,and may breach forum rules


Then again,it might just be the mice experimenting on us

I'm sure that you know these already, but:

If it blinks and moves moderately fast in a straight line, thats an airplane.

If it doesn't blink and moves at a similar speed in a straight line, its the I.S.S or another satellite.

If its a "flare" kind of thing, thats an iridium flare, by a iridium satellite, or random flare by tumbling space junk. Looking up scheduled iridium flares can tell you the difference.

If it doesn't blink and streaks across the sky, shooting star.

Now:
Drones, small airplanes, spyplanes, fireflies, and the like can produce lights that don't blink (or blink), and don't move in a straight line.

Light changing speed? Usually illusion. Or Drone.
Changing brightness? Usually illusion too, or moving into a dimmer/brighter star field.

Now, which categories do your odd lights fit into? Or don't fit into for that matter.
Just curious. [Sorry  ]

A friend on mine went to an outdoor concert many years ago. The friend he went with nudged him at some point and pointed to a strange green glow in the nights sky. They stared at it for a while trying to figure it out, and all of a sudden the light hurtled off in a straight line, far too fast for it to be an aircraft.

It was only when the concert finished and full stadium lighting came up, that he noticed the copper wires running over the stadium. A stage light had been reflecting off it and then moved hurtling the reflection along the wire, creating the illusion of a strange and impossibly fast craft in the sky.

Thats pretty cool. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

Human level AI is impossible huh?

Just like breaking the sound barrier was impossible? 

I don't think human level AI is impossible- I think stopping at human level AI will be impossible.  Looking at the vastness of the universe and thinking that we are the most intelligent thing out there is as egotistical as thinking we are the most advanced thing out there.  If anything, I would imagine we are average at best when it comes to what we think of as "intelligent life."

I also think that we maybe just the next step in a planetary evolution that started with microbes, then progressed to plants, then fish, then reptiles and now mammals.  I doubt our reign was meant to last any more than any of the others did, and frankly I fully expect the tardigrades to be the next dominant species, as they are already the most adaptable species on the planet, and able to live in much harsher climates than we ever will in these soft meat shells.

Def

[AimlessWanderer]

Human level AI is impossible huh?

Just like breaking the sound barrier was impossible? 

I don't think human level AI is impossible- I think stopping at human level AI will be impossible. 

Nah, I've never considered myself human level either. It's always been a bit below me 

 

[ironraven]

Def, it wasn't one of my smarter coworkers.

If we fail on AI, it will because it did wake up, it looked around, looked at us, and suicided.

I fully expect the tardigrades to be the next dominant species,

You and Cody Lundin. Everyone else giggles at you guys. Yes, yes, they are cute, but spiders have them beat. Heck, spiders already have disco- they'll move past that mistake before they ever get to fire. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjl_vq64-HUAhXCyj4KHRI0CzsQyCkIJjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DxYIUFEQeh3g&usg=AFQjCNE_uyV6ROn73pt6tR6qhpcLmYUrdQ

[Grant Lamontagne]

Maybe... but spiders have also gotten into the drug scene and will need to clean up their act if they want to advance....



Def

[Ron Who]

Human level AI is impossible huh?

Just like breaking the sound barrier was impossible? 

I don't think human level AI is impossible- I think stopping at human level AI will be impossible.  Looking at the vastness of the universe and thinking that we are the most intelligent thing out there is as egotistical as thinking we are the most advanced thing out there.  If anything, I would imagine we are average at best when it comes to what we think of as "intelligent life."

I also think that we maybe just the next step in a planetary evolution that started with microbes, then progressed to plants, then fish, then reptiles and now mammals.  I doubt our reign was meant to last any more than any of the others did, and frankly I fully expect the tardigrades to be the next dominant species, as they are already the most adaptable species on the planet, and able to live in much harsher climates than we ever will in these soft meat shells.

Def

Just been watching an episode of Cosmos on the National Geographic Channel. Neil deGrasse Tyson saying that for everyone of us, there are at least one billlion tardigrades. So they might already be the dominant species. We think we are, but based on what? What would a super intelligent alien species have to say?

[Grant Lamontagne]

Tardigrades never invented VCR's.

That makes us better than them.

Lazy microbes.

Def