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Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign 1885

Jr. Member Posts: 92
Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« on: July 14, 2017, 10:27:38 AM »
As it is well known there were two types of "Camping" sign on shield scale of some SAK models e.g. Ranger or Spartan.
Old type of it was inlayed and the newest one was hot printed.
According to my observations this change happened approximately in 1985. As an example, here https://leaf-vics.com/2014/11/061-ranger.html (thanks to LeaF) we can see Ranger with old sign on the top scale. It was made in 1983-1985. And below there is a photo of Explorer made in 1983-1985. So, my conclusion is: it happened roughly in 1985 or at least, it could not happen later than 1985.
Do you have any ideas about this event?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 01:05:14 PM by Frater_Martin »

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,951
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2017, 11:29:52 AM »
I for surely don't... but probably this would be a good estimation...

I also have both types of scales on my rangers



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No Life Club Posts: 1,313
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2017, 12:03:32 AM »
I have a couple of inlaid "Camping" Rangers that are both 1985 or later (sewing eye in reamer) and one of them is 1992 or later, rivet in scissors, hook on back, etc.  This one has a full complement of back tools (5), the other has 3 back tools, no hook, no chisel.  Top right is the newer one, bottom left is the older.

Others inlays on a Camper and Pickniker have aluminum head tweezers so 70's I think.  Sorry............. :cheers:
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,951
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2017, 03:41:35 AM »
Grooved corkscrew, screw joint on scissors, cap lifter doesn't lock at 90°, no sewing eye on awl... I would estimate this as produced between '83 and '85...




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Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2017, 08:11:18 AM »
I have a couple of inlaid "Camping" Rangers that are both 1985 or later (sewing eye in reamer) and one of them is 1992 or later, rivet in scissors, hook on back, etc.  This one has a full complement of back tools (5), the other has 3 back tools, no hook, no chisel.  Top right is the newer one, bottom left is the older.
I think, the bottom knife was made in 1986. Could you make close-up doubble-side photo of its reamer? I remember, that Victorinox used to use old details for one or sometimes more years diring "intermidiate" years. So it is possible, that they took new reamer and old scale for the one knife.
Anyway, I have a scale removed from my Spartan with hew hot stamped sign on it and on internal side there is mark of 1986 year of molding. So I am pretty sure, that in 1986 the inlaying of signs was completely stopped.
Concerning first top knife. I think, that inlayed scale might not to be its native. Do not say "sorry", you have not broken my theory yet :) This issue needs crarification. Does anyone more have the same old scale and new reamer on the same knife?

...Others inlays on a Camper and Pickniker have aluminum head tweezers so 70's I think.
It says nothing about the date of changind old scale -> new scale, only about year/age of starting usage
 inlayed type of the sign "Camping". Moreower here https://www.facebook.com/groups/CellidorSaks/permalink/1846947848860957/ a guy found that aluminium tip on tweezers in quite modern knife.
Anyway thanks for your photos, they will help me to improve this issue.

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2017, 08:16:20 AM »
Grooved corkscrew, screw joint on scissors, cap lifter doesn't lock at 90°, no sewing eye on awl... I would estimate this as produced between '83 and '85...

I also think so.

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,128
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2017, 02:02:35 AM »
I for surely don't... but probably this would be a good estimation...

I also have both types of scales on my rangers
(Image removed from quote.)


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Are those both inlay?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 02:05:17 AM by El Corkscrew »

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,128
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2017, 02:04:56 AM »
I'll post pics when I get home but I have at least three variations of the camping logo. 

There are two w/ inlay that vary only slightly with the the size of the letters and lines. They are both pre 80, one w/ aluminum-tipped tweezers.

I want to say the camping logo showed up some time in the 70's... like 73 or 75??  Many changes were taking place in the 70's

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,951
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2017, 04:04:57 AM »
I for surely don't... but probably this would be a good estimation...

I also have both types of scales on my rangers
(Image removed from quote.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Are those both inlay?
The bottom on is hot stamped I think...


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No Life Club Posts: 1,313
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2017, 11:37:42 PM »
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,128
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2017, 12:02:23 AM »
So we know the inlay goes at least post 91.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 12:03:25 AM by El Corkscrew »

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2017, 12:55:56 PM »
So we know the inlay goes at least post 91.
I would not be so sure. Look at the picture below. It is a scale from my Spartan. Its scales are shabby but we can recognize the sign and that sign is hot stamped, with three strips at the tent. It was made in 1988, no later. Because it has intermediate model of reamer, which was producing in 1986-1987 and on internal side of one scale there is a number "88" as a year when it was molded. I believe that signed scale is his own because it looks as old/shabby as another one.
One my pen friend reminds me constantly that we should not be sure in anything linked to Victorinox. Because it every time brings something unexpected new in things which were quite well known before.
So the date of sign changing is still unclear.

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2017, 01:07:04 PM »
Another datapoint.......

http://m.ebay.com/itm/322595759676?NAV=HOME
I am not sure those scales are native of that knife. On the left/corkscrew scale I have seen a pin hole. Am not I right?  But it is impossible because pin holes at regular scales appeared after 2002.

But everything is possible, so we need more information.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 01:08:28 PM by Frater_Martin »

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,887 mmmmm SAKrelicious
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2017, 01:07:28 PM »
I'll add a fourth type here.

Hiraethus sent me some scales and the logo (including the cross), isn't inlaid, or hot-stamped, but smooth and almost 'beneath' the scale surface.

See pic for details:

'Use the force Harry' - Gandalf

'Derail a thread and we'll come at you like a block of cheese'. Captain Mags and Sergeant Fuzzbucket of the Anti Derai.... mmmmmmm cheese
Jr. Member Posts: 92
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2017, 01:10:13 PM »
I'll add a fourth type here.

Hiraethus sent me some scales and the logo (including the cross), isn't inlaid, or hot-stamped, but smooth and almost 'beneath' the scale surface.

See pic for details:
Is it pad printed? Is its color white or silver?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 01:17:05 PM by Frater_Martin »

-Sorry my bed Inglish :) -
Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,887 mmmmm SAKrelicious
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2017, 01:11:45 PM »
I'll add a fourth type here.

Hiraethus sent me some scales and the logo (including the cross), isn't inlaid, or hot-stamped, but smooth and almost 'beneath' the scale surface.

See pic for details:
Is pad printed? Is its color white or silver?
It's a glittery silver and completely smooth - very nice feel to it. I was surprised about the shield being the same though.

'Use the force Harry' - Gandalf

'Derail a thread and we'll come at you like a block of cheese'. Captain Mags and Sergeant Fuzzbucket of the Anti Derai.... mmmmmmm cheese
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,128
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2017, 04:52:21 PM »
I'll add a fourth type here.

Hiraethus sent me some scales and the logo (including the cross), isn't inlaid, or hot-stamped, but smooth and almost 'beneath' the scale surface.

See pic for details:

Rest of the inters

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
No Life Club Posts: 1,313
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 07:12:17 PM »
It is likely that there is a huge overlap between the inlaid phase-out and the hot stamp phase-in.  Unless Vic has a strict "first in, first out" inventory practice (not really needed in their business), inlaid scales could have remained in inventory years after the hot stamp phase-in.  They weren't replacing the inlaid because they were defective, just as a cost savings.  So a definitive end date for the inlaid may in reality be only a paperwork date.

Another datapoint, note the solid corkscrew....

http://m.ebay.com/itm/201987050090
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,128
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2017, 07:26:39 PM »
It is likely that there is a huge overlap between the inlaid phase-out and the hot stamp phase-in.  Unless Vic has a strict "first in, first out" inventory practice (not really needed in their business), inlaid scales could have remained in inventory years after the hot stamp phase-in.  They weren't replacing the inlaid because they were defective, just as a cost savings.  So a definitive end date for the inlaid may in reality be only a paperwork date.

Another datapoint, note the solid corkscrew....

http://m.ebay.com/itm/201987050090

Speaking of which, there is quite a bit of inconsistency with the corkscrew, sourced from different places at different times.  Some fluted corkscrews you could bobsled in, others are barely noticeable...  while on the Economy knives starting in the early 70's the corkscrew is not fluted.  The corkscrew shares awl of of its secrets with me. :D
  Lot's to factor in, may not ever get an accurate answer but it's a lot of fun trying!

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
No Life Club Posts: 1,313
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2017, 08:45:53 PM »
Are you saying that corkscrews have a "screw loose"?  Is this first hand knowledge?   :rofl:
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,951
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2017, 02:08:44 AM »
It is likely that there is a huge overlap between the inlaid phase-out and the hot stamp phase-in.  Unless Vic has a strict "first in, first out" inventory practice (not really needed in their business), inlaid scales could have remained in inventory years after the hot stamp phase-in.  They weren't replacing the inlaid because they were defective, just as a cost savings.  So a definitive end date for the inlaid may in reality be only a paperwork date.

Another datapoint, note the solid corkscrew....

http://m.ebay.com/itm/201987050090

Speaking of which, there is quite a bit of inconsistency with the corkscrew, sourced from different places at different times.  Some fluted corkscrews you could bobsled in, others are barely noticeable...  while on the Economy knives starting in the early 70's the corkscrew is not fluted.  The corkscrew shares awl of of its secrets with me. :D
  Lot's to factor in, may not ever get an accurate answer but it's a lot of fun trying!
Was thinking about this... my recently restored Economy Spartan didn't have the fluted CS...


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No Life Club Posts: 1,403
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2019, 07:46:11 AM »
Please forgive me for resurrecting this thread.  I've watched it as a lurker since it was current...but now that I'm signed up and posting, I thought I'd add to this thread instead of starting a new one.

I believe the answer to the original question lies in this catalog cut from c.1980

A Hot Stamped Camper is shown on the same page as a Stainless Inlay Ranger.

The c.1985 catalog shows both Camper and Ranger with stainless inlays (page 2 with the Camper):


It is my belief that the Hot Stamp Camping logo did not ever supersede the Stainless Steel Inlays, but rather paralleled it for a couple or more times on the cheaper Camper model and perhaps other models. It seems there are far too many copies of stainless inlay Rangers well into the '90s and I believe post '99/'00, maybe up to '04. I believe this because I have one with the latest alignment of the inlay toward the tweezer head that also has the 'bump'/lock on the caplifter. Also one with the same scale that is definitely mid '90s+

And inclusion of the logo may have flip-flopped over the years.
1991 catalog only shows the Camper Hot Stamp, but nothing on the Ranger:


Then the opposite in 2003...Nothing on the Camper, and what I believe is the 'new alignment' stainless inlay on the Ranger:



Below is my c. '76 Ranger (top) and late '99-'04 Ranger (bottom) I think this is the general extent of the stainless steel Camping logo with the new cross/shield.


I only have one of the newest style pad printed  with a stainless Metal Saw and 2.0mm main blade tang '04+. This has the design of the 'old' tee pee/tent but is completely smooth as noted in earlier posts.

I believe the Nickel Silver was generally used before c.'76 in both new cross from c. '74-'75 and old cross up to c. '73. As found on both Picnickers and Outdoorsman of the era. My understanding is that I'm missing a stainless old cross version, I'm guessing from the '73-'74 range. I have a '73 Ranger that does not have a Camping logo. I do not think any Rangers had the Nickel Silver Camping Inlays.



I believe the start date for the Camping logo is post '68 and well before say '70 because of the lack of shackles on the Camping logo models, and that several +PAT copies are available. The German Campinmesser ad also shows the Picknicker with a keyring and that's the earliest documentation I know of with the logo. I have Picnickers and Outdoorsman knives with and without +PAT openers.


Some old pics with Rangers/Camping logo:







Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,490
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2019, 02:58:43 PM »
Great information as usual!  :like: :tu: :cheers:
No Life Club Posts: 1,403
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2019, 03:20:13 AM »
Great information as usual!  :like: :tu: :cheers:

 :cheers: Thanks, Ray! This thread really helped spur my interest in dating various Vic 91mm features.  When I noticed the Hoffritz knives would help me 'lock up' a lot of dates if coupled with Camping inlays it really piqued my interest in the subject. Hoffritz Rangers are relatively inexpensive and contain *all* the backside tools to boot.
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,490
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2019, 01:58:43 PM »
Great information as usual!  :like: :tu: :cheers:

 :cheers: Thanks, Ray! This thread really helped spur my interest in dating various Vic 91mm features.  When I noticed the Hoffritz knives would help me 'lock up' a lot of dates if coupled with Camping inlays it really piqued my interest in the subject. Hoffritz Rangers are relatively inexpensive and contain *all* the backside tools to boot.
Oh yes, I know what you mean. My Hoffritz Camping is one of my favorite along with the Hoffritz Fisherman. :tu: :cheers:
No Life Club Posts: 1,403
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2019, 04:56:28 PM »
Great information as usual!  :like: :tu: :cheers:

 :cheers: Thanks, Ray! This thread really helped spur my interest in dating various Vic 91mm features.  When I noticed the Hoffritz knives would help me 'lock up' a lot of dates if coupled with Camping inlays it really piqued my interest in the subject. Hoffritz Rangers are relatively inexpensive and contain *all* the backside tools to boot.
Oh yes, I know what you mean. My Hoffritz Camping is one of my favorite along with the Hoffritz Fisherman. :tu: :cheers:

 :tu: :cheers:  If you put up pics of your Hoff Camper, I think I can give a pretty dialed-in date for it.  Picture of the bottom showing the awl tip closed, detail of the Hoffritz inlay, saw tip and shot of the top closed. I'd only need the first two pics I listed but the second two could help depending on the date range.
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 14,803
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2019, 05:20:03 PM »
Fascinating!  It's probably my all-time favorite scale variation!

Barry
No Life Club Posts: 1,403
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2019, 05:35:02 PM »
Fascinating!  It's probably my all-time favorite scale variation!

 :cheers: :iagree:  True in my collection...if numbers are the proof!  :tu:
No Life Club Posts: 1,403
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2019, 02:04:30 AM »
So...of course it's only days after I publish my findings that I find one and maybe two that move the Stainless 'new shield' start date.  :facepalm:

One is a Camping Ranger with solid '75 markers on it. Black spring and blank rear tang and the right awl and shield, etc.

The other is a Camping Camper and Blank rear tang...So it's at least a '75....but the auction pics show me that the Awl might be '73 if it's possible that the clips disappeared during the '73 phase of the blank rear tang.

I thought I was trying hard to find the earliest use of the Stainless Camping logo...I guess I wasn't looking hard enough!

----

And there's more...I found a cool Nickel Silver Camping variation found on an advertising knife. It has 'SWISS HUNTING KNIFE' attached and under the CAMPING...on the back side!  I'm getting old, so I'm not actually certain that I haven't seen this one before. One might have gotten away from me a couple of years ago.  :dunno:

Glad I was shopping late the other day. Totally paid off.  :woohoo:

Pics when they come in...stay tuned Camping Fans.  :tu:

 

No Life Club Posts: 4,694
Re: Lets date the changing of "Camping" sign
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2019, 02:23:46 AM »
Pics when they come in...stay tuned Camping Fans.  :tu:
:popcorn:

 

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