Braided wire cutting.

[Syncop8r]

OK, so maybe we're expecting too much of them then. Any other opinions on this? 

New Page Banana Dance

[tosh]

OK, so maybe we're expecting too much of them then. Any other opinions on this? 

I completely disagree...
The whole attraction of the MT over a SAK is primarily the plier feature - if the MT were basically a bloated balisong with additional tools within, then fair do's.....horses for courses.

But it ain't !

The MT is ultimately built around the ability to be used as a traditional pair of pliers - and therein lies the attraction.

It's pretty rich therefore to suddenly have to accept the plier concept is actually the archiles heel of the whole tool.

Clearly, the manufacturers haven't grasped what pliers are expected to do on a day to day basis. I cannot think of ANY plier manufacturer whose added replaceable carbide cutters - they simply used the correct steel first off.

Maybe MT manufacturers need to swallow their pride and accept their products are not upto industry standards - it would be wonderful if say SOG took advice from knipex, or Leatherman from Wera etc etc.

Suddenly the MT would have real stature and be able to hold its own.

[Syncop8r]

OK, but some of your "traditional" pliers had issues with cutting it as well?

Also, are MT knife blades as good as dedicated knives? Are MT screwdrivers as good as dedicated screwdrivers? etc

[tosh]

OK, but some of your "traditional" pliers had issues with cutting it as well?

Also, are MT knife blades as good as dedicated knives? Are MT screwdrivers as good as dedicated screwdrivers? etc

Those cheap pliers I tried cost £4 delivered! remind me again what the EOD MUT retails for....
Unless the blades have lateral movement, then I think most of us are happy. The screwdriver...It really would make a lot of sense if ALL MT's used the standard 1/4" bit. That then opens up endless possibilities. I use mainly Wera torsion bits, they are in a class of their own, far superior to ANY of the naff bits Gerber, SOG, LM, Victorinox supply.

[Vidar]

If I can find some braided wire (that isn't in some actual use), I'll get out some multitools and pliers and give them all a good go. Might be some interesting stuff to discover there. (I do know specialized cable cutters often have a rounded shape to prevent flatening the braided wires inside).

[aluminated]

Perhaps may feel that a multitool needs to be the end-all of tools. I consider that thinking ridiculous... or at least unreasonable. By it's very nature and name, a multitool is a combination of different tools. It is compromise, a "jack of all trades, master of none." It is not the best option for ANY task. If an individual finds a tool that generally works well for the uses to which it will most likely be put, that's about all that should be asked of it.
If you want tools that work well in every situation, I'm sure there's a Snap-On truck somewhere that you can hire to follow you around.

[Vidar]

Wh

Perhaps may feel that a multitool needs to be the end-all of tools. I consider that thinking ridiculous... or at least unreasonable. By it's very nature and name, a multitool is a combination of different tools. It is compromise, a "jack of all trades, master of none." It is not the best option for ANY task. If an individual finds a tool that generally works well for the uses to which it will most likely be put, that's about all that should be asked of it.
If you want tools that work well in every situation, I'm sure there's a Snap-On truck somewhere that you can hire to follow you around.

Multi-tools are by necessity compromises. But it is also about prioritizing various concerns, features and functionality up against each other. The level of compromise is not constant either; some multi-tools and designs are clearly better than others.

Leatherman/ SOG/ Gerber style multitools are based around pliers so expecting them to perform well at such tasks seems fair enough to me. They all also make the claim that they feature a wire cutter. Then expecting that to actually work doesn't seem too far fetched?

What I find interesting is if braided wire pose a more general difficulty, or just for the typical multi-tool overlap cutter design. Hopefully I find some braided wire of a not too extreme size laying around here somewhere.

[tosh]

Perhaps may feel that a multitool needs to be the end-all of tools. I consider that thinking ridiculous... or at least unreasonable. By it's very nature and name, a multitool is a combination of different tools. It is compromise, a "jack of all trades, master of none." It is not the best option for ANY task. If an individual finds a tool that generally works well for the uses to which it will most likely be put, that's about all that should be asked of it.
If you want tools that work well in every situation, I'm sure there's a Snap-On truck somewhere that you can hire to follow you around.

Sorry, But I think that's a ridiculous assumption.
At work I EDC a Gerber Balance and a Rolson Box cutter. The box cutter see use every single day. The balance is a  joke. The only reason I still edc it is because it has superb tweezers for removing steel splinters and a fantastic eyeglass screwdriver and to be fair the Fiskars scissors have never once let me down. But the pliers are worse than useless they are the absolute pits, as is the CE blade.
If I could find a better MT which had tweezers and eyeglass screwdriver I would probably chuck the balance in the bin.

[AimlessWanderer]

The Balance has never let me down, but then I've only ever used the pliers for light to moderate duty jobs. I think it's a great urban carry tool, but not something I would have carried when I was in heavy engineering companies. It did a good job in helping me fix my computer up though. 

The Wave was the mainstay in a work setting, but the Gerber Multipliers served me well too. If the MPs had a pocket clip, the Wave wouldn't have had a look in. Sheath carry was not an option as it was a snag hazard. Even so, I never used them for the real tough jobs, and would reach for dedicated tools (pliers and cutters - and everything else) if I felt the task was beyond what a multitool was capable of. The multitools were convenient, and did make life easier, but were a long way from being industrial tools. It was the same on the boat too, and when running the boatyard. Cables were up to 90mm² CSA handling very high ampages, Frequently used tools were circlip pliers, C spanners, peg spanners, and other tools you wouldn't expect on a multitool. Some of the wrenches we were using were over 3ft long, and still sometimes needed two men (one to hold the spanner, and someone you trust to bray the other end with a sledgehammer. I was working on machines that drilled holes over 14" diameter from solid, on components up to ten tonnes, and on tooling for machines that handled components in excess of 400 tonnes. Some of the lathes I've worked around had twin saddles, each with front and rear tool posts, and each tool on each tool post on each saddle was taking 90mm depth of cut - that's 720mm (over 28") coming off the diameter in one cut!!!

A multitool was still a very useful piece of equipment though, even though it wasn't up to industrial jobs. If you get one of those red hot turnings in the sole of your boot, you need to get it out NOW and not walk 5 or 10 or 20 metres to the nearest workbench. I never entered a machine shop that I wasn't familiar with, without a pliers based multitool and a decent torch. I don't think a multi will ever be a "do it all" tool, because we are all doing such different jobs in such different scenarios.

[tosh]

C'mon Al, give me a break....
The situations and environment you describe above are well out of the realms of any MT, that's just common sense.
My beef is the Tools they include are NOT justified by the high purchase cost nor the manufacturers claims.
It's very rare I see a tradesman who uses MT's, most have one lying around in their vans or tool bags but not on person.....the reason is purely because they are too limited in their use. Not that they are not feature packed, but because their features don't perform good enough to justify edc!

There is without doubt a colossal market out there for task specific MT's that DO work. But if the truth be said the current MT with its (yawn) predictable tool loadout is just not worth the hassle of committing to carry on a daily basis.

We need to move away from what looks pretty and focus on practicality.

[hiraethus]

I think the fact that there aren't many task specific multitools out there should show that there isn't a colossal market for them.  Leatherman and Victorinox are both arguably very good at marketing (better than they are at making tools, maybe) and they don't have them in their range.  The companies that do offer task specific tools (Gerber, Wenger, SOG, Multitasker, etc) don't sell that many...

Most multitools are pretty good at most things for most people.  If you need something more speSmurfpillsed, you'll have to use something more speSmurfpillsed.

[Syncop8r]

Well you could buy MTs that aren't expensive and see how you get on...
I think a lot of what you pay for in a higher-end multitool is design and manufacture costs as well as 'quality'.

[AimlessWanderer]

C'mon Al, give me a break....
The situations and environment you describe above are well out of the realms of any MT, that's just common sense.
My beef is the Tools they include are NOT justified by the high purchase cost nor the manufacturers claims.
It's very rare I see a tradesman who uses MT's, most have one lying around in their vans or tool bags but not on person.....the reason is purely because they are too limited in their use. Not that they are not feature packed, but because their features don't perform good enough to justify edc!

There is without doubt a colossal market out there for task specific MT's that DO work. But if the truth be said the current MT with its (yawn) predictable tool loadout is just not worth the hassle of committing to carry on a daily basis.

We need to move away from what looks pretty and focus on practicality.

You may have missed the point that I was trying to make. I'll try again ...

Despite multitools not offering many of the functions that I tended to use in the workplace, or not being up to the duty level for the heavy applications, I still got good use out of them, and in many cases felt like they paid for themselves. I didn't use the tools each and every day, but when I did, a lot of time was saved. For example I had an electrical cabinet key in my office, and every couple of months the catenary cable would snag on one of the machines (usually operator error), and trip a switch. If I had empty pockets (or the wrong tool in my pocket), I would have to go to the office for the cabinet key, and to the maintenance area for other tools. Repairing the cable, opening the cabinet, flicking the switch and resetting the machine would take 10 minutes with my Wave, or 30 minutes with the factory stuff. That's just one example and it doesn't sound like much, but having a simple multitool in my pocket could save me a couple of hours a week easily.

Working in the boat engine room, I would usually have three different multitools with me. Not only is getting in and out for different tools time consuming, but also extremely awkward, and I did permanant damage to my knee climbing in and out to test fit some woodwork. I could stash the tools on the transom next to the weedhatch, along with three or four dedicated tools that I knew I'd need, and I'd spend just as much time using the multis than I would using dedicated tools. If I used dedicated tools all the way, it might literally have taken me three or four times as long to complete the task and my body would be in a worse state than it already is.

I do appreciate that not everybody gets the same level of usefulness from tools, or the same real term value, but what I am saying is that not everybody sees them as barely useful gadgets. Some people here do actually get the level of functionality they need - they don't just tolerate the tool because there's nothing better, it genuinely does what they need it to do. For the most part they have served me well too, although I have tweaked several of them to improve (for me) the loadout or capability.

I hope my point was clearer this time

[ducttapetech]

C'mon Al, give me a break....
The situations and environment you describe above are well out of the realms of any MT, that's just common sense.
My beef is the Tools they include are NOT justified by the high purchase cost nor the manufacturers claims.
It's very rare I see a tradesman who uses MT's, most have one lying around in their vans or tool bags but not on person.....the reason is purely because they are too limited in their use. Not that they are not feature packed, but because their features don't perform good enough to justify edc!

There is without doubt a colossal market out there for task specific MT's that DO work. But if the truth be said the current MT with its (yawn) predictable tool loadout is just not worth the hassle of committing to carry on a daily basis.

We need to move away from what looks pretty and focus on practicality.

You may have missed the point that I was trying to make. I'll try again ...

Despite multitools not offering many of the functions that I tended to use in the workplace, or not being up to the duty level for the heavy applications, I still got good use out of them, and in many cases felt like they paid for themselves. I didn't use the tools each and every day, but when I did, a lot of time was saved. For example I had an electrical cabinet key in my office, and every couple of months the catenary cable would snag on one of the machines (usually operator error), and trip a switch. If I had empty pockets (or the wrong tool in my pocket), I would have to go to the office for the cabinet key, and to the maintenance area for other tools. Repairing the cable, opening the cabinet, flicking the switch and resetting the machine would take 10 minutes with my Wave, or 30 minutes with the factory stuff. That's just one example and it doesn't sound like much, but having a simple multitool in my pocket could save me a couple of hours a week easily.

Working in the boat engine room, I would usually have three different multitools with me. Not only is getting in and out for different tools time consuming, but also extremely awkward, and I did permanant damage to my knee climbing in and out to test fit some woodwork. I could stash the tools on the transom next to the weedhatch, along with three or four dedicated tools that I knew I'd need, and I'd spend just as much time using the multis than I would using dedicated tools. If I used dedicated tools all the way, it might literally have taken me three or four times as long to complete the task and my body would be in a worse state than it already is.

I do appreciate that not everybody gets the same level of usefulness from tools, or the same real term value, but what I am saying is that not everybody sees them as barely useful gadgets. Some people here do actually get the level of functionality they need - they don't just tolerate the tool because there's nothing better, it genuinely does what they need it to do. For the most part they have served me well too, although I have tweaked several of them to improve (for me) the loadout or capability.

I hope my point was clearer this time

Nailed it with a sledge hammer! 

[tosh]

C'mon Al, give me a break....
The situations and environment you describe above are well out of the realms of any MT, that's just common sense.
My beef is the Tools they include are NOT justified by the high purchase cost nor the manufacturers claims.
It's very rare I see a tradesman who uses MT's, most have one lying around in their vans or tool bags but not on person.....the reason is purely because they are too limited in their use. Not that they are not feature packed, but because their features don't perform good enough to justify edc!

There is without doubt a colossal market out there for task specific MT's that DO work. But if the truth be said the current MT with its (yawn) predictable tool loadout is just not worth the hassle of committing to carry on a daily basis.

We need to move away from what looks pretty and focus on practicality.

You may have missed the point that I was trying to make. I'll try again ...

Despite multitools not offering many of the functions that I tended to use in the workplace, or not being up to the duty level for the heavy applications, I still got good use out of them, and in many cases felt like they paid for themselves. I didn't use the tools each and every day, but when I did, a lot of time was saved. For example I had an electrical cabinet key in my office, and every couple of months the catenary cable would snag on one of the machines (usually operator error), and trip a switch. If I had empty pockets (or the wrong tool in my pocket), I would have to go to the office for the cabinet key, and to the maintenance area for other tools. Repairing the cable, opening the cabinet, flicking the switch and resetting the machine would take 10 minutes with my Wave, or 30 minutes with the factory stuff. That's just one example and it doesn't sound like much, but having a simple multitool in my pocket could save me a couple of hours a week easily.

Working in the boat engine room, I would usually have three different multitools with me. Not only is getting in and out for different tools time consuming, but also extremely awkward, and I did permanant damage to my knee climbing in and out to test fit some woodwork. I could stash the tools on the transom next to the weedhatch, along with three or four dedicated tools that I knew I'd need, and I'd spend just as much time using the multis than I would using dedicated tools. If I used dedicated tools all the way, it might literally have taken me three or four times as long to complete the task and my body would be in a worse state than it already is.

I do appreciate that not everybody gets the same level of usefulness from tools, or the same real term value, but what I am saying is that not everybody sees them as barely useful gadgets. Some people here do actually get the level of functionality they need - they don't just tolerate the tool because there's nothing better, it genuinely does what they need it to do. For the most part they have served me well too, although I have tweaked several of them to improve (for me) the loadout or capability.

I hope my point was clearer this time

Sorry Al

Makes perfect sense now


Back to topic....I took a minute to measure the SS braided cable that I used for the test. The works vernier stated 1.5mm!!

I don't think that is asking too much, not sure of the size on bicycles. But as previously stated my old Gerber mp600 and Vic Seisstool chomped straight through without breaking sweat.

[Vidar]

I actually tried looking for some bicycle or lawnmover control wire to try varius pliers. Those sized wires seem quite appropriate for normal daily life tasks, and should reasonably be within expected range of a good plier?

Typically though, when you need something it is nowhere to be found. When you don't it is in your face wherever you go.

(I'm planning to mount an expedition later to some uncharted territories not frequented by man since last millenium. There are rumours among the natives that sound like sightings of an old lawnmover. I might also come back with some new species).

[Don Pablo]

I actually tried looking for some bicycle or lawnmover control wire to try varius pliers. Those sized wires seem quite appropriate for normal daily life tasks, and should reasonably be within expected range of a good plier?

Typically though, when you need something it is nowhere to be found. When you don't it is in your face wherever you go.

(I'm planning to mount an expedition later to some uncharted territories not frequented by man since last millenium. There are rumours among the natives that sound like sightings of an old lawnmover. I might also come back with some new species).

Cogs turning in head...



I understand! 
17 years is a lot of time. 

Not sure about the new species bit though.

[tosh]

Removed - duplicate reply

[Vidar]

I have been on an laborious expedition. I climbed, jumped a few low obstacles, and ducked once, before I indeed located the well preserved remains of a last century lawn mover. As luck would have it there was a note next to the carcass stating that it would donate any useble organs or  parts to worthy causes like machinery in need, science or bizarre experiments.

I chose a control wire of galvanized steel. That seemed like a normal non-industrial everyday thing to cut and repair. I've lined up some pliers and a selection of multi-tools for testing. It is raining heavily outside right now though, so I plan to wait that out as I don't want to fill any inside areas with lots of tiny metal splinters. (Although I'm sure I would clean them out over time by getting them stuck in my feet and hands...  Where is that magnetic cleaner when I could actually use one? I can feel another expedition coming up at some point).

What I can say already though is that a Knipex bolt end cutting plier cuts such a wire with great ease indeed. So easy in fact that I'm surprised if any other plier fails - actually I might even try some tough scissors just for the smurf of it.

[aluminated]

The rubbish Leatherman Super Tool 300 cutting 1/16" (1.6mm) braided wire, both uncoated and nylon coated.

The rubbish Leatherman Rebar cut so well on occasion that it shot some wire sections across the vanity even without a dedicated stranded wire cutter.

[Blackbeard]

I have a pair of Klein cable cutters, use them for heavy gauge stranded electrical wire. I'm not sure how thick those brake cables are, but these would most likely do the trick. I will post a pic tomorrow, in the mean time here is a stock pic of the tool:

[aluminated]

Yeah, but where is the bottle opener?!?

[Vidar]

Hit the bottle with that thing and it should be open..? 

[aluminated]

Hit the bottle with that thing and it should be open..? 

Ha! I KNEW somebody would think of that (I didn't) as soon as I posted the question.
Kudos!

[pomsbz]

I've been annoyed about this for a while, specifically with bike brake cables. It would have been really nice if a MT like my Charge could do this simple task. Trying it with a Skeletool ruined the wire cutters, dented them badly.

As for the cost vs features, not sure. You could say the same about the scissors deficiencies. Or the file. Etc, etc.We're paying for a whole bunch of tool compromises put together into a single streamlined package. We're paying for the combination not the tools if that makes sense. Could be better tool design choices inside that combination and it could be cheaper. I fully agree. Especially at the Leatherman price points. Not being a USA citizen it does become tedious to pay a premium markup for US build which I do not particularly find reflected in the actual item quality itself, at least not to the extent the price markup might suggest. Referring to my experience in general rather than Leatherman specifically.

[Vidar]

I've done the tests, but as it turned out to be fairly comprehensive I put them in their own thread - "plier cutting test" - or something like that.

[tosh]

I've been annoyed about this for a while, specifically with bike brake cables. It would have been really nice if a MT like my Charge could do this simple task. Trying it with a Skeletool ruined the wire cutters, dented them badly.

As for the cost vs features, not sure. You could say the same about the scissors deficiencies. Or the file. Etc, etc.We're paying for a whole bunch of tool compromises put together into a single streamlined package. We're paying for the combination not the tools if that makes sense. Could be better tool design choices inside that combination and it could be cheaper. I fully agree. Especially at the Leatherman price points. Not being a USA citizen it does become tedious to pay a premium markup for US build which I do not particularly find reflected in the actual item quality itself, at least not to the extent the price markup might suggest. Referring to my experience in general rather than Leatherman specifically.

Exactly so, almost choked on my lunch earlier...decided to check what amazon are listing the MUT for 
£210 bloody quid!! 

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Multitools-Accessories/LEATHERMAN-MUT-black-Multitool-with-case/B004Q9TKCA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1500501567&sr=8-2&keywords=leatherman+mut

An' it don't cut smurfe!!!

[pomsbz]

I've been annoyed about this for a while, specifically with bike brake cables. It would have been really nice if a MT like my Charge could do this simple task. Trying it with a Skeletool ruined the wire cutters, dented them badly.

As for the cost vs features, not sure. You could say the same about the scissors deficiencies. Or the file. Etc, etc.We're paying for a whole bunch of tool compromises put together into a single streamlined package. We're paying for the combination not the tools if that makes sense. Could be better tool design choices inside that combination and it could be cheaper. I fully agree. Especially at the Leatherman price points. Not being a USA citizen it does become tedious to pay a premium markup for US build which I do not particularly find reflected in the actual item quality itself, at least not to the extent the price markup might suggest. Referring to my experience in general rather than Leatherman specifically.

Exactly so, almost choked on my lunch earlier...decided to check what amazon are listing the MUT for 
£210 bloody quid!! 

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Multitools-Accessories/LEATHERMAN-MUT-black-Multitool-with-case/B004Q9TKCA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1500501567&sr=8-2&keywords=leatherman+mut

An' it don't cut smurfe!!!

I've been thinking this through. A multitool is a collection of compromises. I don't consider a single tool on my Charge AL to be optimal for its intended task. Not one. But. I cannot carry an even slimmed down set of 'non compromised' tools without it being over 3 times the bulk (pliers/cutters/file/screwdriver). So every time I use my Charge I wish I had the proper tool in my hand. But every time I'm using the Charge it's because I don't and wouldn't have had that tool to hand. Because they don't fit in my bag or would not be in my pocket.

That said I believe you mentioned that in the plier cutting test the Victorinox tested far better cutting cable. They also seem to be significantly cheaper. Perhaps that might be a solution for you? Sell out of Leatherman and move to Victorinox. If it works for you, why not?  Given the pricing in the UK you should break even. For me the Victorinox had its own set of compromises which didn't fit my needs. Namely OHO blade and no bit driver slot built in.

I'm a photographer. They make zoom lenses which allow you lots of different types of view from a given stand point. The more zoom you get the more you pay usually. The non zoom lenses, even the ones costing 80 quid, will easily outperform the vast majority of these zoom lenses. Even the ones costing a grand. But they can't do all the other stuff. I have a fancy that in whatever field of engineering, whether tools or electronics, you pay more for compromise if that compromise spans more capability than the speSmurfpillst item.

Whether that compromise is worth the cost is usually dependant on the users specific needs and what the competition is offering. Competition is incredibly valuable. Without it innovation stagnates, prices rise and QC drops.

[Vidar]

I've been thinking this through. A multitool is a collection of compromises. I don't consider a single tool on my Charge AL to be optimal for its intended task. Not one. But. I cannot carry an even slimmed down set of 'non compromised' tools without it being over 3 times the bulk (pliers/cutters/file/screwdriver). So every time I use my Charge I wish I had the proper tool in my hand. But every time I'm using the Charge it's because I don't and wouldn't have had that tool to hand. Because they don't fit in my bag or would not be in my pocket.

Agreed.  A multi-tool is basically a trade off between the capabilities of speSmurfpillsts tools versus the portability of the jack-of-all-trades. And often it makes sense to pay extra for that capable portable package.

One qualifier though: The compromise must be still be good enough to do the job. If not the multi-tool is effectively worse then nothing as you think you have a tool for the task, but instead it turns out you have just been carrying a dead weight. To me it seems that is often the difference between a good and bad multi-tool, and that difference is worth paying for. 

[Syncop8r]

Well said pomsbz.

A big part of all this is that decent multitools retail for ridiculous amounts in some places. The ones in the shops here cost three times more than what I managed to buy mine online (shipped from US) for. So we expect a lot if we pay full retail. In fact what I paid even seems too much.