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More 3D design nonsense

ca Online Grant Lamontagne

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More 3D design nonsense
on: July 24, 2017, 01:11:48 PM
Since getting my new laptop last month I have been getting back into working on 3D design and I feel like I am making some progress.  I decided a little while ago to photograph the rudder on one of my kayaks and work on building a rudder for my other kayak- now the design would have to be slightly different as the method of attaching it is a bit different, but that should be simple enough to manage, as the attachment for this boat is a relatively simple bracket.  This is the style (not mine) that I have, where the pin attaches is part of the assembly and fits in the top side of the boat.



And this is the kind of setup I have on the other boat.



This is what I started out with- it is very similar to the rudder on my 13 foot kayak, but with a slightly different mount.



The idea being that the C shaped bit on the left would attach to the boat and the flat end of the rudder assembly would slide into it and be secured with a pin.

[/img]http://gallery.multitool.org/var/resizes/3D/Design-Images/Rudder%20Assembly-%20below.jpg?m=1500892143[/img]

I cut out the solid bits as much as I could to reduce weight and the amount of material needed to 3D print it (more on that later) and made sure the bolt holes wouldn't interfere with operation too much. 

Then it occurred to me.... the rudder on my orange boat was only made in two halves because it had to be moulded.  I plan to 3D print it, so I don't need to worry about the limitations of moulding, so I fit the halves together and started streamlining it a bit.



The blade I had in mind is a bit more involved.  Since most commercailly available 3D printers max out around 20cm long and the blade needs to be about twice that I figured I would design it in three pieces that fit together.  Then I decided I was a bit paranoid about the strength of such a thing (not that a rudder needs to be that strong) so I thought about a skeletonized design, then skin it with carbon fiber.  This is the design I came up with for that.



With that done, I started thinking that my next step should be to reduce the size of the round bit on the main rudder assembly as it really doesn't serve any purpose except to protect the part of the blade that rotates. 

Then it occurred to me that I had done something else very wrong.   :facepalm:

The design of the rudder I was copying was one that sits on top of the boat, while the rudder I wanted to make attaches to the stern, which means that the "wings" (for lack of a better term) that hook t the rudder cables are too low.  Rudder cables come out of the boat on top and would then have to angle far down to hook on to these ones, and probably contact the hull of the boat along the way. 

So now I am wondering if I should redesign the existing rudder with the modifications I want to make, or if I would be batter off starting from scratch.  Or I guess I could just mount it upside down from what I had planned, but then the rudder blade needs to be designed shorter.... or just omit the middle portion.  But, if I omit the middle portion and mount the whole thing upside down then it won't fold up and out of the water like a rudder blade should.  :facepalm:

I'll post some pics of the actual rudders/boats that I have to help you all visualize what I am talking about- the pics above aren't exactly the same as what I have.

Anyways, for those interested, I am still using Google Sketchup- I have downloaded and installed Fusion 60 but I am still not quite smart enough to use it, and I have in fact failed hard on the tutorial.  I will keep trying it but in the meantime I will stick largely to Sketchup even though I know it is flawed.

Def
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england Offline Kev D

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #1 on: July 24, 2017, 01:32:19 PM
Google sketchup is looking pretty good to me. Is it easy to use?


si Offline lister

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #2 on: July 24, 2017, 01:48:22 PM
Real smurfs use FreeCAD! At least if they are, like me, a bit masochistic an like free software.  :D
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ca Online Grant Lamontagne

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #3 on: July 24, 2017, 02:11:25 PM
Google sketchup is looking pretty good to me. Is it easy to use?

It has a bit of a learning curve but yes, if I can use it, anyone can.   :facepalm:

Sketchup does however have issues working with curved surfaces, so I haven't been able to do things like threads on different parts.  For that you'll need to find something better to use.

Def
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ca Offline JP

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #4 on: July 24, 2017, 02:40:57 PM
Good project! Do you have a 3D printer?



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si Offline lister

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #5 on: July 24, 2017, 02:48:01 PM
Could an item printed on home 3D printer actually handle such loads? If so, I just might need one.  :gimme:
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ca Online Grant Lamontagne

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 03:30:22 PM
Good project! Do you have a 3D printer?



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Yes and no...

The good news is, I have one. 

The bad news is I broke it.

The good news is I have ordered upgrade parts to replace the broken bits and improve print quality.

The bad news is that in order to use the replacement parts I need to print a new carriage to hold them.

So, what I need to do is order identical replacement parts to print the carriage (parts mount) to hold the upgraded components I have bought.   :facepalm:

I will start a thread soon to show everyone all about it, but I'd really like to have it working when I do!  But, since the cat is out of the bag I suppose I'll have to start it today.

Could an item printed on home 3D printer actually handle such loads? If so, I just might need one.  :gimme:

In theory, a printed plastic part should be just as strong as a moulded part, but you can anneal it to make it stronger:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZX8eHC7fws&feature=youtu.be

Plus, a rudder should really not be put under a significant load anyway.  I use Nite Ize #0 S-Biners to connect the rudder cable to the rudder "wings" and they are only rated for something like 5lbs, and I think it should be adequately reinforced to handle at least that much of a load.

Here is my latest version (so far), which seems much more challenging to print.   :facepalm:



And yes, I did notice the similarity to a Droid dropship.

As for how difficult it is to learn Sketchup, I did this entire design since starting this thread, and I've driven Megan to work.

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


gr Offline firiki

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 03:54:59 PM
So... what does a rudder do?   :shrug:
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ca Online Grant Lamontagne

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 03:57:16 PM
Why it ruds of course..... what a silly question!  :D

Seriously a rudder on a kayak does the same as a rudder on any boat or an airplane.  It helps turn the boat, or in most cases, helps to set a trim adjustment if the current or wind is trying to adjust your course in a direction you don't want to go in.

Def
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wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 04:01:48 PM
The rudder must be subject to some pretty big side loads when turning, otherwise you wouldn't turn.  Add in the chance (quite likely, I guess) of whacking it on the river bed and it'll need to be pretty strong.  Needs moar ribz. :pok:


gr Offline firiki

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #10 on: July 24, 2017, 04:11:44 PM
Why it ruds of course..... what a silly question!  :D

:D I meant to comment that something attached to the exterior of a small boat probably needs to be able to handle significant loads, hiraethus was faster and said even more
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ca Online Grant Lamontagne

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #11 on: July 24, 2017, 04:13:03 PM
The rudder must be subject to some pretty big side loads when turning, otherwise you wouldn't turn.  Add in the chance (quite likely, I guess) of whacking it on the river bed and it'll need to be pretty strong.  Needs moar ribz. :pok:

You don't think a carbon fiber skin would provide enough rigidity?

Whacking it on the bottom isn't as big an issue as you'd think, as the blade is freely able to swing backwards.  It is held down by gravity and, when paddling actually is angled outward by the drag.  When it hits something it just swings out a little bit further until it is past.

I am all for adding more supports though.  I'll fiddle with it some more.

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #12 on: July 24, 2017, 04:26:26 PM
Probably would, actually.  Though I'd be tempted to sculpt it from blue foam as a core for a CF skin rather than print the framework.  Maybe print the fixings at the top.


ca Online Grant Lamontagne

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #13 on: July 24, 2017, 04:29:45 PM
I was playing around with the rudder housing some more- added a cable guide (for raising/lowering the blade) and some decorative touches.  I'll print it in bright green (when I get the printer up and running) and maybe paint the black parts in because I think it looks pretty cool.

So far the only colors I have are bright green and orange, but I'll add more colors as I go.  For now since the machine doesn't even work it seems silly to get more filament.   :facepalm:

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


ca Online Grant Lamontagne

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #14 on: July 24, 2017, 04:30:14 PM
Forgot to add in the pic.



Def
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fr Offline Whoey

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #15 on: July 25, 2017, 12:01:35 PM
yeah some sort of honeycomb internal will give the blade sections more strength, and I was thinking maybe put some dovetail joints to attach the parts before you wrap it to make it even stronger as mentioned in case it happens to hit something...
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ph Offline carboncopy101

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #16 on: July 26, 2017, 02:45:31 PM
Nice design! I have no knowledge about kayaking but great idea. Have you fixed your 3d printer and made a prototype yet? Very interested in your process and result. I've been making some parts through 3d printing but i mostly sand it down again to make sure the parts align and couple together.


ca Online Grant Lamontagne

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #17 on: July 26, 2017, 03:22:47 PM
Nice design! I have no knowledge about kayaking but great idea. Have you fixed your 3d printer and made a prototype yet? Very interested in your process and result. I've been making some parts through 3d printing but i mostly sand it down again to make sure the parts align and couple together.

No, the 3D printer is not fixed yet.  I have the upgrade parts to make it work better, but I don't have the original replacement parts yet to make the carriage needed to hold the upgrade parts.   :facepalm:

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


ph Offline carboncopy101

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #18 on: July 27, 2017, 11:36:45 AM
That's too bad. Well i'm excited in this project of yours and im tuning in. I'm curious on how the parts will perform against exposure to water.  :cheers:


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #19 on: July 27, 2017, 08:23:04 PM
That's too bad. Well i'm excited in this project of yours and im tuning in. I'm curious on how the parts will perform against exposure to water.  :cheers:

It's not exposure to water that's the potential hazard - its the exposure to use by Grant Lamontagne  :D

I'd be tempted to thicken up those front braces buddy. The more compressive force they can take without, the less tension will be on the main cross spar (or whatever you call it). Micah's idea of honeycomb is nice, as that will give a good rigid structure without unnecessary material.


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ca Online Grant Lamontagne

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #20 on: July 27, 2017, 10:29:40 PM
I had thought about that, but one weakness of Sketchup is that it does not do curves very well, especially not compound curves.  I would need to learn better software to do a honeycomb that would follow the lines of a rudder blade.

Def
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wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #21 on: July 28, 2017, 06:42:59 AM
I had thought about that, but one weakness of Sketchup is that it does not do curves very well, especially not compound curves.  I would need to learn better software to do a honeycomb that would follow the lines of a rudder blade.

Def

I've not used sketchup for a long time so I don't know how it's limited, but you could create a rectangular block of the honeycomb pattern so it extends either side from the rudder's mid-plane, then cut the curved surface that you need to form the outer face into that.


ca Online Grant Lamontagne

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #22 on: July 29, 2017, 01:24:54 AM
If I can do that, I'm not sure how.  I have seen a lot of comments online about how frustrated people are when trying to do contours and curved surfaces with Sketchup, so I assume that it isn't just my limited skills.

Def
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ph Offline carboncopy101

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #23 on: July 29, 2017, 07:15:33 AM
Have you tried using autocad it should work better for curves and contours. IMO typing your design and measurement in the cmd line is better than the WYSWYG setup of sketchup.


si Offline lister

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #24 on: July 29, 2017, 07:23:42 PM
But if I understand correctly all you want to do is to add some extruded curved ribs? Are there no bezier curves / b-splines in sketchup? I think this is all you need.  :think:
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no Offline Vidar

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #25 on: July 30, 2017, 12:22:49 AM
As for 3D printing and material/ weight savings most of the 3D printer programs will let you define an outer skin thickness and then hollow out solid sections to an extent you choose, and with the pattern you want. Rectangular is quite common, but triangular will be stiffer. Anyway, the point was that you don't need to worry about designing those details at the CAD level.
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fr Offline Whoey

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #26 on: July 30, 2017, 12:24:39 PM
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 12:28:31 PM by Whoey »
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si Offline lister

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #27 on: July 30, 2017, 01:17:37 PM
I don't think he was talking about an infill for 3d printing, but adding extra support to the Outside of the current part?  :think:
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ca Online Grant Lamontagne

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #28 on: August 03, 2017, 12:57:50 PM
Have you tried using autocad it should work better for curves and contours. IMO typing your design and measurement in the cmd line is better than the WYSWYG setup of sketchup.

The issues with using better software is that I am not that smart.  I have Fusion 360, which should be a lot better for this kind of thing but I'm at a bit of a loss when it comes to using it.

I'll keep working at it though- I was completely useless with Sketchup once, and now I am proud to say I consider myself to be marginally competent with it.   :tu:

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


ca Online Grant Lamontagne

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Re: More 3D design nonsense
Reply #29 on: August 09, 2017, 02:49:15 PM
Still working with Sketchup, but I decided to just start designing all of the above from the ground up again, and this is what I came up with.



And I went a bit overboard with branding on the underside.  :D



And here is the top part of the rudder blade, which attaches into the housing:





And the blade itself, which will attach to the bottom of the piece above, and then get skinned in carbon fiber.



No progress on getting the 3D printer up and running- I am still waiting on parts.   :facepalm:

The CF did arrive a few days ago, and boy is it pretty stuff!  :D

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


 

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