The 85mm Appreciation Society

[Fast Bill]

I think this thread deserves a bump! Wenger Swiss Sportsman

[theonew]

In keeping with the doohickey theme here's a Backpacker II:



Scale has some damage but it is a user so no biggie.

[El Corkscrew]

In keeping with the doohickey theme here's a Backpacker II:

(Image removed from quote.)

Scale has some damage but it is a user so no biggie.

  I love the Backpacker II, great model.

[Rapidray]

In keeping with the doohickey theme here's a Backpacker II:

(Image removed from quote.)

Scale has some damage but it is a user so no biggie.

Doohickey...

[Tasky]

I've been daily carrying this Delémont S557 for about a month now... and I don't know why. There's so much wrong with it....

The curved scales and outer liners that sit so proud of the main body annoy the pants off me.
The scissors are junk, failing about 65% of the time to cut things that the Vic ones would snip in their sleep.
The pliers are a wonderful concept that falls on its backside when you find they can't even grip a piece of paper.
The spanner (or wrench, if you insist) has such limiting reach, aperture and shoulder height that it really is only good for bicycle repairs and occasional use.
There's no pin or pen, and the multi-purpose hook is distressingly absent.
The lock lever catches on pockets, rips them inside out and either fouls my fingers or actually gets actuated, disengaging the lock while in use.
The blade lock means I technically shouldn't even be carrying this in the UK, which kinda defeats the purpose of a pocket-knife.
It seems the only good tools are the Vic ones that replaced their Wenger counterparts.


So yeah, an absolute pile of smurfing smurfery.... and yet I'm somehow still massively driven to have this on me all the time. I even have a Swiss Champ on my opposite side pocket, too, yet I reach for the 557 so often instead.
I don't know what it is about this thing that keeps me favouring it so, but I can definitely appreciate it!


 

S5572.jpg (Filesize: 91.18 KB)

[afishhunter]

Evo Grip 14 is the only 85 I have.

[Simon_Templar]

I've been daily carrying this Delémont S557 for about a month now... and I don't know why. There's so much wrong with it....

The curved scales and outer liners that sit so proud of the main body annoy the pants off me.
The scissors are junk, failing about 65% of the time to cut things that the Vic ones would snip in their sleep.
The pliers are a wonderful concept that falls on its backside when you find they can't even grip a piece of paper.
The spanner (or wrench, if you insist) has such limiting reach, aperture and shoulder height that it really is only good for bicycle repairs and occasional use.
There's no pin or pen, and the multi-purpose hook is distressingly absent.
The lock lever catches on pockets, rips them inside out and either fouls my fingers or actually gets actuated, disengaging the lock while in use.
The blade lock means I technically shouldn't even be carrying this in the UK, which kinda defeats the purpose of a pocket-knife.
It seems the only good tools are the Vic ones that replaced their Wenger counterparts.


So yeah, an absolute pile of smurfing smurfery.... and yet I'm somehow still massively driven to have this on me all the time. I even have a Swiss Champ on my opposite side pocket, too, yet I reach for the 557 so often instead.
I don't know what it is about this thing that keeps me favouring it so, but I can definitely appreciate it!


  [ Quoting of attachment images from other messages is not allowed ]

I have the Evowood version and agree on all points except one (see below). And you didn't even mention how hard it is on the fingernails - opening the tools in the middle layers is such a pain (literally). It's a shame, I really wanted to like this one given the interesting toolset, good size and nice scales.

So there's one thing I cannot understand: how on earth can you still want to carry it? After about two weeks of trying to EDC it I disgustedly threw it into my desk drawer where it has been living ever since.

[Tasky]

I have the Evowood version and agree on all points except one (see below). And you didn't even mention how hard it is on the fingernails - opening the tools in the middle layers is such a pain (literally). It's a shame, I really wanted to like this one given the interesting toolset, good size and nice scales.

So there's one thing I cannot understand: how on earth can you still want to carry it? After about two weeks of trying to EDC it I disgustedly threw it into my desk drawer where it has been living ever since.

I find it quite easy on my fingernails. Everything seems pretty light. Phillips and spanner are about as tough as the former on the Swiss Champ, really.

As to why - "I don't really know" [/Mavis]
Maybe it's the dimensions? Wide as a Handyman, but still smaller in the hand.
Maybe it's the character from all the different tools.
Maybe it's because it's different, compared to the uniform straightness of all my Victorinox models?
Maybe it's just that, like you, I really want to like this one?

I even start to think about where I might find some actual vintage Wengers to compare.

[Farmer X]

I have an Evo 23, which I carried during the Delemont challenge back in October. The Evo 23 is as fine quality a piece as any from Victorinox. Aside from the scissors, I found it the be a great little knife. Someone (I fervently wish I could remember who) said Wenger's scissors design was better on certain materials, and Victorinox's design suits my scissors needs much better.  Its magnifier, with the screwdriver tip, is the best thing I've found (short of a proper offset screwdriver or mini ratchet) for tightening doorknobs that have gone Smurfy. Of, and I had no issues with any tool being difficult to open

I'd definitely buy another 85mm to carry...but I'll forego their scissors in the future.

[SteveP]

I've been daily carrying this Delémont S557 for about a month now... and I don't know why. There's so much wrong with it....

The curved scales and outer liners that sit so proud of the main body annoy the pants off me.
The scissors are junk, failing about 65% of the time to cut things that the Vic ones would snip in their sleep.
The pliers are a wonderful concept that falls on its backside when you find they can't even grip a piece of paper.
The spanner (or wrench, if you insist) has such limiting reach, aperture and shoulder height that it really is only good for bicycle repairs and occasional use.
There's no pin or pen, and the multi-purpose hook is distressingly absent.
The lock lever catches on pockets, rips them inside out and either fouls my fingers or actually gets actuated, disengaging the lock while in use.
The blade lock means I technically shouldn't even be carrying this in the UK, which kinda defeats the purpose of a pocket-knife.
It seems the only good tools are the Vic ones that replaced their Wenger counterparts.


So yeah, an absolute pile of smurfing smurfery.... and yet I'm somehow still massively driven to have this on me all the time. I even have a Swiss Champ on my opposite side pocket, too, yet I reach for the 557 so often instead.
I don't know what it is about this thing that keeps me favouring it so, but I can definitely appreciate it!


  [ Quoting of attachment images from other messages is not allowed ]

Tasky, I carried an S557 for the Daredevil Challenge last year and my reaction was about the same as yours. Nearly every point you brought up is one I thought about.

And like you, I kept wanting to like that SAK - I think because of the compact size and what seemed like a great combination of tools. But then it would fail me again.

My problem with the pliers was that every time I opened them, unless I did it really gently, the slip jaws slipped open all the way.

I sort of found a work-around for the scissors - another Knight suggested pushing the loose scissor blade slightly to the left when you press down with your thumb, if you're holding the SAK in your right hand and using your thumb to press the loose scissor arm. That will put some pressure to keep the two scissor cutting edges pressed together.

I burned a pin slot into the back scale, but I did miss the pen. (Though I did see someone on the forum add a pen slot to an 85mm SAK, so that's an option too.)

At the end of the challenge, I gladly went back to my Swiss Champ and Deluxe Explorer (Explorer modded to add Vic pliers).

I did later pick up an Evolution 18 that I like better. It gets rid of the pliers, useless wrench, and stubby Phillips, in exchange for a wood saw and a backside Phillips.

[Simon_Templar]

Tasky, I carried an S557 for the Daredevil Challenge last year and my reaction was about the same as yours. Nearly every point you brought up is one I thought about.

And like you, I kept wanting to like that SAK - I think because of the compact size and what seemed like a great combination of tools. But then it would fail me again.

My problem with the pliers was that every time I opened them, unless I did it really gently, the slip jaws slipped open all the way.

I sort of found a work-around for the scissors - another Knight suggested pushing the loose scissor blade slightly to the left when you press down with your thumb, if you're holding the SAK in your right hand and using your thumb to press the loose scissor arm. That will put some pressure to keep the two scissor cutting edges pressed together.

I burned a pin slot into the back scale, but I did miss the pen. (Though I did see someone on the forum add a pen slot to an 85mm SAK, so that's an option too.)

At the end of the challenge, I gladly went back to my Swiss Champ and Deluxe Explorer (Explorer modded to add Vic pliers).

I did later pick up an Evolution 18 that I like better. It gets rid of the pliers, useless wrench, and stubby Phillips, in exchange for a wood saw and a backside Phillips.

... remember how back then I predicted you would be underwhelmed? 

[fyrstormer]

Guess I might as well post pictures of my custom-built one here too. 😋









I made the same build using a 91mm Victorinox, and I just don't like it as much as the 85mm Delemont design. It's sitting in my spare-parts bag waiting to be disassembled for future builds.

I consider the blade lock on the large knife to be a basic safety feature and I've never once had trouble with it disengaging while I was using the knife. If I lived somewhere where I couldn't carry a knife with a locking blade, I would modify the blade lock to snap-open/snap-closed like the flat screwdriver on a 91mm Victorinox, so I could still have more blade stability than a normal slipjoint allows without breaking the law. (this is not an issue for the small knife, which I only use for delicate work.)

Never had any problems with the Delemont scissors; the serrated edges make it much easier to cut things one-handed, because the serrated edges grip the item being cut. It's true that the blades require a little sideways pressure to achieve maximum cutting effectiveness, but all scissors work this way -- the curve of the blades is only capable of holding the blades together near the tips, not near the base. You just don't notice the sideways pressure you need to apply when you're using normal handheld scissors, because the handles are designed such that you apply sideways pressure without needing to do it intentionally. It's only obvious if you're one of the <1% of people who are so left-handed that you can't use right-handed scissors at all -- and then you have to buy left-handed scissors to get the proper effect.

I added a pin slot and a pen slot in the back scale, but truth be told I haven't used either one since. I know the pin will eventually come in handy; the pen I'm less certain about.

I sharpened the awl a bit more, filing it down and polishing it with a 5000-grit emery sponge to give it a nice polished point. I don't have a picture of that, though.

I replaced the Victorinox can opener with a Wenger can opener, because the Wenger design is superior for actually opening cans -- it has a longer cutting stroke, it doesn't require you to alternate between pulling and pushing to work it around the rim of the can, and it doesn't get stuck under the lid if you get too ambitious with it. (see also: why most other brands of multitools use the same design as Wenger did.) I can live without the tiny flathead screwdriver that the Victorinox can opener includes.

[Tasky]

It's just horses for courses, really.

I no longer have the option of a locking blade, but it's not been a problem for centuries of humans and, because I'm fairly sensible with things, I don't miss the days when we could have locking blades... I even still have most of my old ones, but they just don't get used for much.
Scissors are a curious thing. The serrated ones do cut a very few things a bit better than Vic, mainly cable ties... but everything else is an outright failure, no matter how much side pressure I use, or from which side I apply it.
Can opener - I thought everyone else used a lobster claw only because Vic's one was patented. I can use either, but I'll take a Vic or a P-38/P-51 over a Lobster any day. I can open a can with a Vic about as fast as a butterfly opener, but can also speed-cut with the Vic and be quicker than even an electric opener. Can't say I've ever gotten stuck or jammed, though... maybe because I'm levering it instead of pushing and pulling?

All about what works best for you.

[pfrsantos]

Guess I might as well post pictures of my custom-built one here too. 😋

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

I made the same build using a 91mm Victorinox, and I just don't like it as much as the 85mm Delemont design. It's sitting in my spare-parts bag waiting to be disassembled for future builds.

I consider the blade lock on the large knife to be a basic safety feature and I've never once had trouble with it disengaging while I was using the knife. If I lived somewhere where I couldn't carry a knife with a locking blade, I would modify the blade lock to snap-open/snap-closed like the flat screwdriver on a 91mm Victorinox, so I could still have more blade stability than a normal slipjoint allows without breaking the law. (this is not an issue for the small knife, which I only use for delicate work.)

Never had any problems with the Delemont scissors; the serrated edges make it much easier to cut things one-handed, because the serrated edges grip the item being cut. It's true that the blades require a little sideways pressure to achieve maximum cutting effectiveness, but all scissors work this way -- the curve of the blades is only capable of holding the blades together near the tips, not near the base. You just don't notice the sideways pressure you need to apply when you're using normal handheld scissors, because the handles are designed such that you apply sideways pressure without needing to do it intentionally. It's only obvious if you're one of the <1% of people who are so left-handed that you can't use right-handed scissors at all -- and then you have to buy left-handed scissors to get the proper effect.

I added a pin slot and a pen slot in the back scale, but truth be told I haven't used either one since. I know the pin will eventually come in handy; the pen I'm less certain about.

I sharpened the awl a bit more, filing it down and polishing it with a 5000-grit emery sponge to give it a nice polished point. I don't have a picture of that, though.

I replaced the Victorinox can opener with a Wenger can opener, because the Wenger design is superior for actually opening cans -- it has a longer cutting stroke, it doesn't require you to alternate between pulling and pushing to work it around the rim of the can, and it doesn't get stuck under the lid if you get too ambitious with it. (see also: why most other brands of multitools use the same design as Wenger did.) I can live without the tiny flathead screwdriver that the Victorinox can opener includes.

Custom SAKs (and other brands) are awlways nice to see. It makes the tool more personal and gives you some ideas to try for yourself.

 

That combo looks great (awlthough I'd prefer the CS to the back phillips).

 

[SteveP]

... remember how back then I predicted you would be underwhelmed? 

I wanted to like it, I really did!   

[fyrstormer]

It's just horses for courses, really.

I no longer have the option of a locking blade, but it's not been a problem for centuries of humans and, because I'm fairly sensible with things, I don't miss the days when we could have locking blades... I even still have most of my old ones, but they just don't get used for much.
Scissors are a curious thing. The serrated ones do cut a very few things a bit better than Vic, mainly cable ties... but everything else is an outright failure, no matter how much side pressure I use, or from which side I apply it.
Can opener - I thought everyone else used a lobster claw only because Vic's one was patented. I can use either, but I'll take a Vic or a P-38/P-51 over a Lobster any day. I can open a can with a Vic about as fast as a butterfly opener, but can also speed-cut with the Vic and be quicker than even an electric opener. Can't say I've ever gotten stuck or jammed, though... maybe because I'm levering it instead of pushing and pulling?

All about what works best for you.

It sounds like your scissors are defective. I own several of these and they all work fine, even for cutting thin wispy stuff like toilet paper. I bet if you simply bought a new one it would work fine.

I didn't do a good job of describing how the can opener is used. Yes, it's levered up and down, but the Victorinox design requires you to push it along the rim of the can to reposition it after each cutting stroke, and in my experience it's much more likely to slip off the rim of the can as opposed to a "lobster claw" design that requires you to pull it along the rim of the can after each cutting stroke.

A P-38 can opener functions the same as a lobster claw can opener, it just has a different hand-hold position.

"Because I'm fairly sensible with things..." Yeah, and if you're sensible about driving and never crash, you don't need seatbelts either. Except, of course, the real world is chaotic with lots of moving parts and things happening outside your control, and safety features exist to protect you from unpredictable events, not just your own careless mistakes. Let's just chalk this one up to the UK being a nanny state. I mean, a few years ago they actually tried to require kitchen knives be manufactured with rounded tips so angry housewives couldn't stab their husbands with them, as if that were actually a common-enough occurrence to require preventative legislation. About 80% of violent crime in the UK is unarmed, while only about 5% involves a knife. Looking at the numbers, what the UK really needs to outlaw are closed fists and alcohol.

But I digress; a person doesn't have to be doing dumb things with a knife to appreciate having something physically preventing the blade from snapping closed on their fingers. If the blade slips, the handle can twist in your hand faster than your muscles can release the pressure being applied. A single slip while carving a stick with a slipjoint knife can send you to the ER to get your fingertip sewn back together. It may not be a common injury in absolute terms, but it's orders of magnitude more common for someone to hurt himself with a knife than to hurt someone else with it, so as far as I'm concerned the user's safety is the more important consideration.

[Tasky]

It sounds like your scissors are defective. I own several of these and they all work fine, even for cutting thin wispy stuff like toilet paper. I bet if you simply bought a new one it would work fine.

Exactly how much newer than absolutely brand spanking new do I have to go, given that this one was indeed absolutely brand spanking new, straight out the box, directly from Victorinox....?
Feel free to buy me a new one and prove me wrong, though....!

I didn't do a good job of describing how the can opener is used. Yes, it's levered up and down, but the Victorinox design requires you to push it along the rim of the can to reposition it after each cutting stroke, and in my experience it's much more likely to slip off the rim of the can as opposed to a "lobster claw" design that requires you to pull it along the rim of the can after each cutting stroke.

In both cases that's just down to the user maintaining correct clockwise rotational force to keep the tool in place, as well as the potential for a damaged can throwing things off.
With the Vic, you can always push-cut to keep everything aligned, though. Not so easy to do that the other way.

"Because I'm fairly sensible with things..." Yeah, and if you're sensible about driving and never crash, you don't need seatbelts either. Except, of course, the real world is chaotic with lots of moving parts and things happening outside your control, and safety features exist to protect you from unpredictable events, not just your own careless mistakes. Let's just chalk this one up to the UK being a nanny state.

I'm not against blade locks... but people still try to avoid accidents even though they have seat-belts and air bags in their car, because good practice and situational awareness works far better than relying on safety mechanisms. Same with gun safety.

To quote a friend of mine:
"I think of locks the same way as a manual safety on a firearm. It's there to add a degree of security in the event of accidental mishandling. But to rely on it as compensation for poor handling technique is kinda asking for trouble. In this way, lockblades can be much more dangerous than a slipjoint or friction folder. The latter you know will fold whenever you handle the knife in a certain way. Lockblades, on the other hand, sometimes fool the user into a false sense of security. Locks do not routinely fail. But they sometimes do fail randomly. There's really no prediction about when this can happen. It happens to cheap knives, and to expensive knives. Search knife forum archives and you'll find instances of failure in just about every brand, every level. And the devastating thing about lockblades is that when they do fail, it seems to happen suddenly and without warning".

In summary - If what you are doing might cause the knife to fold on you, you should probably have used a fixed blade. Used properly, there should be no difference between a lock blade and a non-locking blade.
The S557 has a lock, but even in the context of safety and usability I think this one falls a little short.

[Farmer X]

To rely on it as compensation for poor handling technique is kinda asking for trouble.

+1

I couldn't agree more.

[Barry Rowland]

  too! 

[Tasky]

see also: why most other brands of multitools use the same design as Wenger did.

You got me curious on this...

It seems everyone else uses the older lobster claw mainly because the contemporary Vic design is patented.
But it seems the lobster claw you love so much was also a Vic patent, which they only abandoned in 1961 with the new Soldier knives because the Swiss Army preferred Vic's current design. Wenger had to follow suit, but still had to order the new design can openers from Victorinox.

So yeah, that is why - Not because it's necessarily better, but because Vic hold the patents.

Sources:
https://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Wenger+85mm
https://www.victorinox.com/uk/en/Did-you-know/cms/didyouknow