Wool as an outer layer

[Syncop8r]

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[Syncop8r]

So wonder why he dipped them in that secret concoction??? Hmmm

Because as well as wool performs when wet, it performs even better when dry. 

[styx]

again, to be fair most peacoats, overcoats, greatcoats and similar items are made of wool too and used as normal outerwear.

this whole thing is slightly less confusing at times than the whole wind shirt/jacket vs rain jacket thing. when did hiking/backpacking/woods bumming clothing get so complex?

[4everYoung]

again, to be fair most peacoats, overcoats, greatcoats and similar items are made of wool too and used as normal outerwear.

this whole thing is slightly less confusing at times than the whole wind shirt/jacket vs rain jacket thing. when did hiking/backpacking/woods bumming clothing get so complex?

Yea wool coats are designed as outer wear, so are knit cotton, denim, and even down filled jackets and a slew of synthetic materials. Doesn't mean they should be worn in all weather conditions. Which is the whole point of all your of this. At least I thought it was.
Picking the right outer wear for the right conditions.

[4everYoung]

So wonder why he dipped them in that secret concoction??? Hmmm

Because as well as wool performs when wet, it performs even better when dry. 

So that's to say that dry wool performs better but wet wool performs worse than dry wool... pretty sure that's been my argument all along. ☔️

[Don Pablo]

Wool may or may not perform nice when wet, but there is no way I would want to get wet in the first place. If it's drizzling all day, raincoat over something insulating (such as wool or a fleece) for me.
I went camping last weekend. It drizzled for half the day on Saturday. 
I was dry, thanks to my raincoat, but on the cold side due to not having something properly insulating. 
I won't make that mistake again, and will go buy something warm. 

[Syncop8r]

So wonder why he dipped them in that secret concoction??? Hmmm

Because as well as wool performs when wet, it performs even better when dry. 

So that's to say that dry wool performs better but wet wool performs worse than dry wool... pretty sure that's been my argument all along. ☔️

I thought your argument was that the adage that "wool keeps you warm when it's wet" is a myth.
I'm saying it still keeps you warm when wet, not to the same degree as when dry, but a lot better than what was traditionally the alternative - cotton.

[Don Pablo]

So wonder why he dipped them in that secret concoction??? Hmmm

Because as well as wool performs when wet, it performs even better when dry. 

So that's to say that dry wool performs better but wet wool performs worse than dry wool... pretty sure that's been my argument all along. ☔️

I thought your argument was that the adage that "wool keeps you warm when it's wet" is a myth.
I'm saying it still keeps you warm when wet, not to the same degree as when dry, but a lot better than what was traditionally the alternative - cotton.

So basically, when wet, wool wins over cotton, but is not as good compared to some modern stuff.
Question closed!

[Gareth]

Wool may or may not perform nice when wet, but there is no way I would want to get wet in the first place. If it's drizzling all day, raincoat over something insulating (such as wool or a fleece) for me.
I went camping last weekend. It drizzled for half the day on Saturday. 
I was dry, thanks to my raincoat, but on the cold side due to not having something properly insulating. 
I won't make that mistake again, and will go buy something warm. 

This seems to be the sensible way to approach things I'd say.  I still think anyone expecting to be warm when wet is likely to be disappointed sooner or later, whether what you are wearing wool, cotton or something synthetic.  I wear a lot of different wool coats/jackets from tweeds to pea coats and army surplus, but none of them would be my first choice of what to wear when it's raining heavily.  Not saying they're useless at all, but I wouldn't want to spend a whole day in the rain in one and certainly not overnight.  An afternoon of drizzle is OK, but I'd still want to know I could dry out afterwards.

[Don Pablo]

Wool may or may not perform nice when wet, but there is no way I would want to get wet in the first place. If it's drizzling all day, raincoat over something insulating (such as wool or a fleece) for me.
I went camping last weekend. It drizzled for half the day on Saturday. 
I was dry, thanks to my raincoat, but on the cold side due to not having something properly insulating. 
I won't make that mistake again, and will go buy something warm. 

This seems to be the sensible way to approach things I'd say.  I still think anyone expecting to be warm when wet is likely to be disappointed sooner or later.  I wear a lot of different wool coats/jackets from tweeds to pea coats and army surplus, but none of them would be my first choice of what to wear when it's raining heavily.  Not saying they're useless at all, but I wouldn't want to spend a whole day in the rain in one and certainly not overnight.  An afternoon of drizzle is OK, but I'd still want to know I could dry out afterwards.

Not to mention, warm and dry beats warm and wet....

[Syncop8r]

Not to mention, warm and dry beats warm and wet....

Must...  resist........ must... behave..... 

[Don Pablo]

Not to mention, warm and dry beats warm and wet....

Must...  resist........ must... behave..... 

[Gareth]

Not to mention, warm and dry beats warm and wet....

Must...  resist........ must... behave..... 

[4everYoung]

So wonder why he dipped them in that secret concoction??? Hmmm

Because as well as wool performs when wet, it performs even better when dry. 

So that's to say that dry wool performs better but wet wool performs worse than dry wool... pretty sure that's been my argument all along. ☔️

I thought your argument was that the adage that "wool keeps you warm when it's wet" is a myth.
I'm saying it still keeps you warm when wet, not to the same degree as when dry, but a lot better than what was traditionally the alternative - cotton.

I could see wool as an outer layer in dry conditions but not in wet. For all it's properties, waterproof/resistant it is not.

The above was my short response when this thread first started. Unfortunately the old classic debate ensued. So that requires arguing from different angles.

But my whole point is and always has been that wool is a good insulator and makes a good layer, but keep it dry. It is not waterproof. Unfortunately you can't simply make that statement without all the hubbub and todo about it. Hearing about how wool is a magically mythical fabric that is able to defy all physical properties.

Cotton retains more moisture longer than wool. Wool also retains moisture. Is it more effective and drying out than cotton? Yes ! However that was never my contention.
Wool is not waterproof on its on. So unless you make it that way by coating it, it will eventually saturate as well. Saturated wool is no better than saturated anything else: Cotton, down or whatever.
That's why in the article you posted, the inventor used a secret concoction to waterproof the wool. And my point about why he did it.

[4everYoung]

Wool may or may not perform nice when wet, but there is no way I would want to get wet in the first place. If it's drizzling all day, raincoat over something insulating (such as wool or a fleece) for me.
I went camping last weekend. It drizzled for half the day on Saturday. 
I was dry, thanks to my raincoat, but on the cold side due to not having something properly insulating. 
I won't make that mistake again, and will go buy something warm. 

This seems to be the sensible way to approach things I'd say.  I still think anyone expecting to be warm when wet is likely to be disappointed sooner or later, whether what you are wearing wool, cotton or something synthetic.  I wear a lot of different wool coats/jackets from tweeds to pea coats and army surplus, but none of them would be my first choice of what to wear when it's raining heavily.  Not saying they're useless at all, but I wouldn't want to spend a whole day in the rain in one and certainly not overnight.  An afternoon of drizzle is OK, but I'd still want to know I could dry out afterwards.

Yes, thank you!

[Syncop8r]

Saturated wool is no better than saturated anything else: Cotton, down or whatever.

I'm not convinced.... or not yet at least.
Does cotton hold more water than wool? Perhaps the wool is more difficult to saturate?
This is something I will look into more when I have time...

[4everYoung]

Saturated wool is no better than saturated anything else: Cotton, down or whatever.

I'm not convinced.... or not yet at least.
Does cotton hold more water than wool? Perhaps the wool is more difficult to saturate?
This is something I will look into more when I have time...

I'm doing real time test for you now. Stand by

[Gareth]

Wool may or may not perform nice when wet, but there is no way I would want to get wet in the first place. If it's drizzling all day, raincoat over something insulating (such as wool or a fleece) for me.
I went camping last weekend. It drizzled for half the day on Saturday. 
I was dry, thanks to my raincoat, but on the cold side due to not having something properly insulating. 
I won't make that mistake again, and will go buy something warm. 

This seems to be the sensible way to approach things I'd say.  I still think anyone expecting to be warm when wet is likely to be disappointed sooner or later, whether what you are wearing wool, cotton or something synthetic.  I wear a lot of different wool coats/jackets from tweeds to pea coats and army surplus, but none of them would be my first choice of what to wear when it's raining heavily.  Not saying they're useless at all, but I wouldn't want to spend a whole day in the rain in one and certainly not overnight.  An afternoon of drizzle is OK, but I'd still want to know I could dry out afterwards.

Yes, thank you!

I will caveat my above statement by saying that, while I wouldn't necessarily reach for a wool coat if it's already raining, if I was already wearing one the fact it starts raining doesn't make me run for cover.  They're fine...up to a point.

Keep in mind it's now getting on for Autumn, I've got a dog to walk and I live in Scotland, I've got lots of opportunities to put this to the test coming up very soon.

[4everYoung]

This is cotton t shirt and a merino wool buff


Wool before dunk


Dunk for 2secs


After 2sec it is fully saturated and dripping




Cotton shirt before dunk


2sec dunk


Fully saturated and dripping



Both had the water squeezed out so it wasn't dripping and tied around my upper arms.



Will let you know the results of feel and drying time.
But I can tell you that the wool and cotton bot sucked up the water fast. There was no noticeable difference in the two fabrics. Both were fully saturated after 2sec.
And preliminary I can say I don't feel warm from either side. As the air cond is on and I right beside a vent. It's chilly on both arms.

[4everYoung]

20 minutes so far, both arms still cold and wet. Still quite uncomfortable in here.

[styx]

again, to be fair most peacoats, overcoats, greatcoats and similar items are made of wool too and used as normal outerwear.

this whole thing is slightly less confusing at times than the whole wind shirt/jacket vs rain jacket thing. when did hiking/backpacking/woods bumming clothing get so complex?

Yea wool coats are designed as outer wear, so are knit cotton, denim, and even down filled jackets and a slew of synthetic materials. Doesn't mean they should be worn in all weather conditions. Which is the whole point of all your of this. At least I thought it was.
Picking the right outer wear for the right conditions.

at some point it was. but considering there are many nuances to this whole debate, I think that the bast way to go hiking and backpacking is by having a half cotton, half synthetic base layer (not a blend, literally 2 different shirts sewn together), a wool sweater and an oilcloth (or similar water resistant material) overcoat, a pair of merino longjohns  under hiking pants (one of those that have 45 zippers so the pant leg length can be adjusted, icebreaker socks and swimming fins.

[4everYoung]

50min in. Both are still damp. The part that is stretched out is drying on both. However on both the part that is tied around in a knot is still very wet.

Here is a tissue test from the stretched  part of each fabric.

Wool


Cotton


This is after 5 secs of contact with my hand on top.
Very little difference in each one.

The skin under both fabrics is colder than the skin that is not in contact with it on both sides. I would not want either one on in a cold environment if they were wet. It's 70*f with a constant cool breeze from circulating air. It would be frigid if I was in actual cold temps.

[Gareth]

Very interesting so far mate.   I know you (probably) only have two arms, but I'd be interested in seeing this repeated with a wicking shirt vs the "winner" of this current test.

[4everYoung]

Ok so 2hours have elapsed and this is the results.

Both fabrics are still damp. The wool feels dryer than the cotton. However both are still cold against the skin. Neither ever resembled anything like warmth.

The tissue test at 5 seconds again.

Wool


Cotton


Both were still significantly wet at the knot portion of the fabric. The knot hung at the bottom so I would say that a fair bit or water went that direction due to gravity.

One observation about the wool, it felt dryer at the top most portion of my arm, and as the fabric went around the sides more and more moisture was retained.
The cotton seemed consistently damp all the way around (except the lower knot portion on both pieces).

I removed both pieces at the 2 hr mark. Both arms were still cold to the touch after removing the fabrics as well as damp. I let them air dry and within 5min both side had warmed up to the rest of my arms temp.

I hung up the fabrics and will them dry on their own. Will report back in that.

In conclusion of this part, it seemed that the wool was starting to feel more dry around the 1hr 30min mark, but still damp and cool. At the 2hr mark I was still cool and damp.
Overall the point of the test was a comparison of wool vs cotton in regards to water absorption and retention. In a dunk, there was no difference in absorption after a 2 sec dunk. Both items were saturated and dripping. Wool did not resist the moisture anymore than cotton did.
Secondly after wringing out the fabrics both were still considerably wet feeling.
Both were cold and resulted in heat loss through convection.
Both pieces were still damp at the 2hr mark. The wool had dried some in relation to the cotton starting to notice at 1.5hr mark. This still did not make a differences in the feel. I still felt cold and wet  on both sides.

[4everYoung]

Very interesting so far mate.   I know you (probably) only have two arms, but I'd be interested in seeing this repeated with a wicking shirt vs the "winner" of this current test.

Well I'll see what I can make happen. It would be the wool vs synthetic. Once the wool dries I'll plan for that one.

[styx]

the things you do for us

[Gareth]

Very interesting so far mate.   I know you (probably) only have two arms, but I'd be interested in seeing this repeated with a wicking shirt vs the "winner" of this current test.

Well I'll see what I can make happen. It would be the wool vs synthetic. Once the wool dries I'll plan for that one.

[Syncop8r]

OK what about the amount of water absorbed by wool Vs cotton garments after say an hour of drizzle?
With your experiment I would like to have seen a measure of how much water was absorbed by measuring the water before and after dunking. 

[4everYoung]

OK what about the amount of water absorbed by wool Vs cotton garments after say an hour of drizzle?
With your experiment I would like to have seen a measure of how much water was absorbed by measuring the water before and after dunking. 

Sounds like you have yourself a couple good experiments of your own to conduct.

[4everYoung]

Here's more of an impromptu test for you with some numbers for you.

My son is 1 and he's battling his first cold. The little fella has been running a temp today. As normal it goes up at night. Well he was very uncomfortable so I checked his temp. It was 101.6*F.
We normally run a bath and cool them that way. But i figured I'd let him help me test my theory.

So I wetted the wool buff and laid it in his head. The buff was wrung out very well so it was just damp.
After being in his head for 8minutes
His temp has dropped to 99.3*F
A 2.3*F drop in 8min is pretty quick.
Clearly the wet wool did not insulate while wet. If it had the temp would have remained the same or increased.

Now before you accuse me of bad parenting by testing theories on my kids. I knew before hand it would work. As we use damp clothes on their heads to help when fever strikes.
I just found it more compelling to have these numbers show what science tells us happens.

Here's the poor lil fella.