Wool as an outer layer

[MadPlumbarian]

Awww, pour little fella, feel better!
JR

[4everYoung]

Awww, pour little fella, feel better!
JR

Thanks

[MadPlumbarian]

Awww, pour little fella, feel better!
JR

Thanks

Wife went  and said children’s Morten and then Tylenol..
JR

[Syncop8r]

My son is 1 and he's battling his first cold. The little fella has been running a temp today. As normal it goes up at night. Well he was very uncomfortable so I checked his temp. It was 101.6*F.
We normally run a bath and cool them that way. But i figured I'd let him help me test my theory.

I hope he gets better soon.
Some would argue that a fever is the body's way of fighting off illness and is often better left untreated (within reason). Not me though, I'm tired of arguing!

[4everYoung]

Awww, pour little fella, feel better!
JR

Thanks

Wife went  and said children’s Morten and then Tylenol..
JR

Yea my wife picked up some meds for him. Got him some meds and put him to bed. Will see how long he sleeps...

My son is 1 and he's battling his first cold. The little fella has been running a temp today. As normal it goes up at night. Well he was very uncomfortable so I checked his temp. It was 101.6*F.
We normally run a bath and cool them that way. But i figured I'd let him help me test my theory.

I hope he gets better soon.
Some would argue that a fever is the body's way of fighting off illness and is often better left untreated (within reason). Not me though, I'm tired of arguing!

I used to never worry about a fever. However when my daughter turned a year old, she contracted a virus and would run a fever. We tried the methods of cool baths, alternating Tylenol/Motrin and cool wraps. However he fever spiked rapidly and she had a febrile seizure. One minute she was watching a cartoon and the next she was non responsive and seizing. Short version, it took her about 6hrs to be able to talk or act herself. It was the scariest moment of my life because I didn't know anything about what was happening.
After going thru it, turns out to be very normal at that age. She's been fine since, but we don't play with fevers anymore.

[styx]

Poor little guy. He should get a SAK for helping out with your experiments at such a young age.

Here a lot of people stick to traditional remedies which oddly work. A gauze dampened with rakija put on the chest, ankles and or wrists. Not sure how the rest of the world would react to treating a small child with alcohol soaked wraps

[Gareth]

Poor wee chap.   I hope he's feeling better soon.

[MadPlumbarian]

Awww, pour little fella, feel better!
JR

Thanks

Wife went  and said children’s Morten and then Tylenol..
JR

Yea my wife picked up some meds for him. Got him some meds and put him to bed. Will see how long he sleeps...

Hope he feels better, please let us know!
JR

[Gareth]

The things I do for you lot.   So I decided to wear one of my wool coats out in a pretty heavy rain this morning while walking the dog  It was raining pretty hard for periods and only lightened up at times and I was out for about 45 minutes and in that time it absorbed quite a bit of water but was still showing the new spots at the end of the walk, showing it wasn't saturated. 


I was very pleasantly surprised to find the inside felt completely dry to the touch.  My jeans on the other hand were soaked though and very unpleasant.


After getting home I hung it up in a unheated room (about 17degC) and checked again about two hours later and the outside was mostly dry.  However the inside now feels, very slightly, damp. 

My feelings about this are; I was pretty pleased with how it preformed TBH, it really was raining hard and I didn't get wet the whole time I was out.  In fact I would easily put this performance on par with a decent "soft shell" outer.  I do think we need to be thinking as much about construction and weave as much as material.  However, and I've said this more than a few times already, I'd not want to rely on this unless I knew I would be able to dry it out at some point. 

[styx]

your sacrifice is admirable

[Huntsman]

Austrian Dachstein mittens are absolutely amazing 

They are 100% wool and preshrunk.

I have worn them in the depth of Scottish Winters in complete white out conditions.
The outside gets caked in snow - But they are still 100% dry inside and your hands are as warm as toast

I have also used them to 'rescue' friends hands that have poor circulation - after a few minutes in the gloves their hands warm up and circulation returns.

You can hold an ice axe in them - But they are not good if you need your fingers - eg if you are climbing
Although  I think they may do a glove version

Not read the whole of this thread - But I would not use wool as an outer layer for my body - Maybe in completly dry conditions - Although I'd worry about the windchill
 

[Aloha]

Some good info in this thread.  I tend to go with the philosophy,  "Do You".  If wool works for what you do then go for it.  If you require something water proof then theres certainly better options.  When it comes to staying dry, I like to error on the side of DRY.  I'm not looking for good enough or it can get wet and I'll be warm type clothing.  I have wool and appreciate the material very much.  Lots of great properties with regard to wool clothing.    I also have synthetics that are great.  When I camp in California mountain winter I choose a combination of materials.  I am not limited nor limit myself when it comes to wind, rain, sweating, or how my clothing reacts to any such conditions.  I go with cotton Ts then a layer of merino then a heavier layer if needed of wool of a less density and finally a wind proof layer.  I've camped in 27F with not as much as a bother as to cold.  Conditions were dry but I have been out in rain.  A nice waterproof outer shell is how I roll.  I am not going to get wet period.  Pants however are typically jeans but I do have a layer that will go on top but they dont breath so great.  Thats my next purchase down the road.  I don't live in a rainy part of the world so I can get away with wool as an outer layer with little worries to it getting wet.  I wear leather in out winter with a light merino layer under and stay quite toasty. 

[Gareth]

Austrian Dachstein mittens are absolutely amazing 

They are 100% wool and preshrunk.

I have worn them in the depth of Scottish Winters in complete white out conditions.
The outside gets caked in snow - But they are still 100% dry inside and your hands are as warm as toast

I have also used them to 'rescue' friends hands that have poor circulation - after a few minutes in the gloves their hands warm up and circulation returns.

You can hold an ice axe in them - But they are not good if you need your fingers - eg if you are climbing
Although  I think they may do a glove version

Not read the whole of this thread - But I would not use wool as an outer layer for my body - Maybe in completly dry conditions - Although I'd worry about the windchill
 

As someone who has poor circulation in my fingers really love my Dachstein mitts.   As you say they are fantastic in the snow but, without wanting to sound like a broken record, I wouldn't want to wear them soaking wet. 

[Gareth]

This thread as gotten me thinking about staying dry and I realise that I, like most of us, normally assume that our Gore-tex jackets will keep us 100% dry.  This isn't actually completely true as even Gore-tex (and other similar materials) will eventually "wet out" under continuous rain, leaving you no dryer than anything else.  Living and hiking in Scotland I have had this happen to me more than once, but breathable fabrics are all about compromise and if you want to move and not sweat to death then that's just something you have to live with.

[Huntsman]

Hey Aloha
Two things you wear that are absolute 'no-nos'  for me - Surprising 

In my experience cotton as a base layer is very bad.
If it does get wet, either through sweating or precipitation, it is very uncomfortable as it does not dry out .... at all
It then gets clammy and can give you a chill - even in summer
Merino is best as a base layer for me as it keeps you wonderfully warm and is a 'wicking' material'
Synthetics are also OK, but then you have the stinky problem - especially after a few days !

Then jeans    ...
Which are even worse than a cotton Ts if they get wet. Are impossible to dry out and also shrink
The thick material is also not so comfortable/stretchable if you are moving around a lot!!

I guess for both, if you can guarantee dryness, (California ) then you could get away with it
But who does not sweat when you are exerting yourself - Or even if it is very hot!!
And if you are carrying a pack your back is guaranteed to get wet - Hmmm

I have been advised not to wear either of these fabrics by outdoor instructors etc
Ah well - sounds like they work for you.

@ Gareth - yes My Dachsteins are definitely for snow/Winter conditions - And would be too warm for summer - even high up.
I think I may have worn them in wet conditions and they still work/stay dry - But can't quite remember - It's been a while

[Aloha]

@Huntsman,  I know the adage you sweat you die, or something like that.  For hiking I'll use a Dry Fit base followed by merino in winter and whatever else is appropriate.  For pants I don't use jeans but its still blend with cotton.  They are 65/35 ripstop/cotton.  I tend to be ok in these but yes a nice pant for hiking would be great.   For around camp I find myself ok with cotton t and jeans along with the merino layer on top.  I failed to mention I do have a synthetic layer under jeans they are Dry Fit long pants.  I am not a terribly sweaty person even on hot days hiking.  I run Dry Fit Ts when hiking on those hot days which is nice for me.  I have some older synthetics that are Dry Fit type material.   

I will say tho in our weather (75-80F) most days and 60s nights I can get away with quite a lot.  "Winters" in Cali are a little cooler but again I can get away with a lot.  In the mountains it does get cooler during winter with some snow.  I tend to camp in those months and when I leave outside of camp ( hike/explore ) I try to omit as much cotton as I can.  Again my pants are a blend but so far they are ok.  With the long Dry Fit pants I find myself ok.  Wool socks help and keeping my core warm does too.   

[Fortytwo]

The things I do for you lot.   So I decided to wear one of my wool coats out in a pretty heavy rain this morning while walking the dog  It was raining pretty hard for periods and only lightened up at times and I was out for about 45 minutes and in that time it absorbed quite a bit of water but was still showing the new spots at the end of the walk, showing it wasn't saturated. 
(Image removed from quote.)

I was very pleasantly surprised to find the inside felt completely dry to the touch.  My jeans on the other hand were soaked though and very unpleasant.
(Image removed from quote.)

After getting home I hung it up in a unheated room (about 17degC) and checked again about two hours later and the outside was mostly dry.  However the inside now feels, very slightly, damp. 

My feelings about this are; I was pretty pleased with how it preformed TBH, it really was raining hard and I didn't get wet the whole time I was out.  In fact I would easily put this performance on par with a decent "soft shell" outer.  I do think we need to be thinking as much about construction and weave as much as material.  However, and I've said this more than a few times already, I'd not want to rely on this unless I knew I would be able to dry it out at some point.

I think there is an important distinction to be made here. There seems to be two almost entirely different types of garment being compared here. One being your coat here, It looks very much like my Austrian Loden and I guess that's what you have tere too, and things like tweed.

The second is the much less dense wool, often merino, that's used in things like underlayers.

These seem to work very different and it seems to me like which one you think of when talking about haswool might explain how well you expect it to work against rain. Generally here or seems like the people who doubt wool the most talk about the lighter merino garments and the people, me included, who are more on board with the idea are referring to the denser tweeds and similar.

[Gareth]

The things I do for you lot.   So I decided to wear one of my wool coats out in a pretty heavy rain this morning while walking the dog  It was raining pretty hard for periods and only lightened up at times and I was out for about 45 minutes and in that time it absorbed quite a bit of water but was still showing the new spots at the end of the walk, showing it wasn't saturated. 
(Image removed from quote.)

I was very pleasantly surprised to find the inside felt completely dry to the touch.  My jeans on the other hand were soaked though and very unpleasant.
(Image removed from quote.)

After getting home I hung it up in a unheated room (about 17degC) and checked again about two hours later and the outside was mostly dry.  However the inside now feels, very slightly, damp. 

My feelings about this are; I was pretty pleased with how it preformed TBH, it really was raining hard and I didn't get wet the whole time I was out.  In fact I would easily put this performance on par with a decent "soft shell" outer.  I do think we need to be thinking as much about construction and weave as much as material.  However, and I've said this more than a few times already, I'd not want to rely on this unless I knew I would be able to dry it out at some point.

I think there is an important distinction to be made here. There seems to be two almost entirely different types of garment being compared here. One being your coat here, It looks very much like my Austrian Loden and I guess that's what you have tere too, and things like tweed.

The second is the much less dense wool, often merino, that's used in things like underlayers.

These seem to work very different and it seems to me like which one you think of when talking about haswool might explain how well you expect it to work against rain. Generally here or seems like the people who doubt wool the most talk about the lighter merino garments and the people, me included, who are more on board with the idea are referring to the denser tweeds and similar.

Absolutely agree.  The coat I was wearing is a old Swedish Army issue and strikes me as being relevant as the thread was originally asking about wool as an outer layer, so I thought I'd try a garment that was designed  to be one.   I've no doubt that if I was wearing a knitted jumper, wool shirt with a more open weave or merino base layer I'd have been soaked to the skin in very short order and have been chilled in no time at all. 

[Gareth]

Thinking of cotton as a base layer; isn't it curious that the "Norgie" shirt is often held up as a brilliant cold weather garment, yet is made of 100% cotton?  My thought on this is that in extreme cold weather (-15degC or lower and not uncommon in a Scandinavian winter) there is basically no moisture in the air and so the chances of the shirt being damp is much less than in the slightly warmer British winter.  Here we always have to think in terms of cold AND wet.

[Syncop8r]

Probably most of this discussion belongs in a thread called "Wool/cotton/synthetic as an inner layer".

[Gareth]

Wool has been worn as an outer layer in NZ for some time (albeit modified): http://www.swanndri.co.nz/bushshirts

The Swanndri, or "swanny" as it has been dubbed, was designed by William Broome (1873–1942). Since he registered Swanndri as a trademark on 23 December 1913, it has become an iconic New Zealand garment, and the term "swanny" has, to some extent at least, become a genericised trademark for heavy bush shirts within New Zealand.

Broome, born in Staffordshire, England, immigrated to New Zealand at age 21. A tailor by trade, he established a clothier and outfitters business, The Palatine that was located on Devon Street, New Plymouth. Part of his business involved sewing woollen fabric from mills in Wanganui, Kaiapoi and Wellington, into the Swanndri garments. The characteristics of the "swanny" design include its heavy dark fabric, often in a tartan pattern, hood and laced neck closure. In more recent designs, a zip has replaced the lace-up neck.

The original design was short sleeved, long in the back, and would be worn on top of work clothes for warmth and shower proofing. During production, these garments were dipped into a secret mixture and then dried. It is not known if Broome had been taught the method for shower proofing the fabric he used or whether he developed the formula himself. The mixture caused the garments to shrink unevenly so were sold as one size fits all.

According to the Swanndri’s corporate history, Broome’s design began after he was frustrated by the persistently rainy New Zealand weather. The name Swanndri was named by Broome because the rain would literally run off the back of the garment as it does on a swan. Although new colors and features have been incorporated into the Swanndri, Broom’s original design influence can still be seen in New Zealand and among other producers around the world.

This has just reminded me that I've never actually worn my Swanndri Ranger Shirt as an outer layer in the rain.  Next up for testing then I guess, though I have to say the weave is more open that I was expecting and doesn't inspire huge amounts of confidence.  Lets see what the weather is doing tomorrow.

[Syncop8r]

My experience (and yours it seems) is that such woollen garments when worn as an outer layer DO keep you dry (up to a point) and warm, but require a lot of drying out.

[Aloha]

The things I do for you lot.   So I decided to wear one of my wool coats out in a pretty heavy rain this morning while walking the dog  It was raining pretty hard for periods and only lightened up at times and I was out for about 45 minutes and in that time it absorbed quite a bit of water but was still showing the new spots at the end of the walk, showing it wasn't saturated. 
(Image removed from quote.)

I was very pleasantly surprised to find the inside felt completely dry to the touch.  My jeans on the other hand were soaked though and very unpleasant.
(Image removed from quote.)

After getting home I hung it up in a unheated room (about 17degC) and checked again about two hours later and the outside was mostly dry.  However the inside now feels, very slightly, damp. 

My feelings about this are; I was pretty pleased with how it preformed TBH, it really was raining hard and I didn't get wet the whole time I was out.  In fact I would easily put this performance on par with a decent "soft shell" outer.  I do think we need to be thinking as much about construction and weave as much as material.  However, and I've said this more than a few times already, I'd not want to rely on this unless I knew I would be able to dry it out at some point.

I think there is an important distinction to be made here. There seems to be two almost entirely different types of garment being compared here. One being your coat here, It looks very much like my Austrian Loden and I guess that's what you have tere too, and things like tweed.

The second is the much less dense wool, often merino, that's used in things like underlayers.

These seem to work very different and it seems to me like which one you think of when talking about haswool might explain how well you expect it to work against rain. Generally here or seems like the people who doubt wool the most talk about the lighter merino garments and the people, me included, who are more on board with the idea are referring to the denser tweeds and similar.

Not so sure I agree.  Merino is a breed of sheep that produce some of the finest quality and particularly prized wool not necessarily a type of clothing.  The wool however is graded and not all Merino sheep produce clothing quality wool.  What I am referring to personally is the wool specifically produced and graded for clothing as it has those prized qualities.  Like I've said earlier, I dont live in a rainy environment so for me any such wool would do fine however I dont see myself using wool as an outer layer be it Merino or another type wool.  Yes it has wonderful properties and yes its pretty fabulous in terms of how it performs.  To me however its a mid layer or base layer for those wonderful and fabulous properties.  Would I choose Merino for a cold day?  Yes no question.  For a windy day?  Without hesitation.  For a snowy day?  Well it would have to snow in SoCal first but yes not a problem.  Rainy?  No.  However looking at the link I provided I may have a change of heart.  I am always open to learn and learn I am.

It was interesting to see Gareth coat and how it handled the rain.  What concerns me is not being able to get it dry at whatever level of "wet".   If one was out say, 3 days then what?  Seems like a bad 2 days once the article of clothing is wet.  Can it survive better than say Cotton?  I'd most certainly agree yes.  So the question to me is less about can it survive,  but how long and then what? 

http://www.woolmark.com/globalassets/woolmark/inspiration/activewear/merinoperform/merinoperform_eng.pdf/

[MadPlumbarian]

Ok can someone enlighten me without me having to read everything, I mean I’d love one of those old heavy military wool blanket sweaters that supposedly are perfect for all winter long in subfreezing weather and winds, yet there like $300?
JR

[Aloha]

Ok can someone enlighten me without me having to read everything, I mean I’d love one of those old heavy military wool blanket sweaters that supposedly are perfect for all winter long in subfreezing weather and winds, yet there like $300?
JR

Wool is amazing.  Wool isnt the best for prolonged wet weather IMO.  Wool is great for any one of three layers, base, mid, or outer.   

[styx]

Probably most of this discussion belongs in a thread called "Wool/cotton/synthetic as an inner layer".

Well it is natural to look at all components of clothing since they do effect each other. Just think about having a wet t-shirt on you that isn't drying out quickly. No matter your outer shell, wind can sometimes sneak up under and then it is not a very pleasant experience.

For instance I've recently seen arguments for a one jacket that is both a rain shell and a wind blocking item and for dedicated items in both respect. And the mindset of people didn't differ all that much since both sides were presented by UL hikers, more traditional backpackers (those not counting grams or oz) and very sedentary instructors (survival/bushcraft/what ever name they want to use these days) that drive up to a location and spend there several days without walking around beyond the basic needs

[Gareth]

The things I do for you lot.   So I decided to wear one of my wool coats out in a pretty heavy rain this morning while walking the dog  It was raining pretty hard for periods and only lightened up at times and I was out for about 45 minutes and in that time it absorbed quite a bit of water but was still showing the new spots at the end of the walk, showing it wasn't saturated. 
(Image removed from quote.)

I was very pleasantly surprised to find the inside felt completely dry to the touch.  My jeans on the other hand were soaked though and very unpleasant.
(Image removed from quote.)

After getting home I hung it up in a unheated room (about 17degC) and checked again about two hours later and the outside was mostly dry.  However the inside now feels, very slightly, damp. 

My feelings about this are; I was pretty pleased with how it preformed TBH, it really was raining hard and I didn't get wet the whole time I was out.  In fact I would easily put this performance on par with a decent "soft shell" outer.  I do think we need to be thinking as much about construction and weave as much as material.  However, and I've said this more than a few times already, I'd not want to rely on this unless I knew I would be able to dry it out at some point.

I think there is an important distinction to be made here. There seems to be two almost entirely different types of garment being compared here. One being your coat here, It looks very much like my Austrian Loden and I guess that's what you have tere too, and things like tweed.

The second is the much less dense wool, often merino, that's used in things like underlayers.

These seem to work very different and it seems to me like which one you think of when talking about haswool might explain how well you expect it to work against rain. Generally here or seems like the people who doubt wool the most talk about the lighter merino garments and the people, me included, who are more on board with the idea are referring to the denser tweeds and similar.

Not so sure I agree.  Merino is a breed of sheep that produce some of the finest quality and particularly prized wool not necessarily a type of clothing.  The wool however is graded and not all Merino sheep produce clothing quality wool.  What I am referring to personally is the wool specifically produced and graded for clothing as it has those prized qualities.  Like I've said earlier, I dont live in a rainy environment so for me any such wool would do fine however I dont see myself using wool as an outer layer be it Merino or another type wool.  Yes it has wonderful properties and yes its pretty fabulous in terms of how it performs.  To me however its a mid layer or base layer for those wonderful and fabulous properties.  Would I choose Merino for a cold day?  Yes no question.  For a windy day?  Without hesitation.  For a snowy day?  Well it would have to snow in SoCal first but yes not a problem.  Rainy?  No.  However looking at the link I provided I may have a change of heart.  I am always open to learn and learn I am.

It was interesting to see Gareth coat and how it handled the rain. What concerns me is not being able to get it dry at whatever level of "wet".   If one was out say, 3 days then what?  Seems like a bad 2 days once the article of clothing is wet.  Can it survive better than say Cotton?  I'd most certainly agree yes.  So the question to me is less about can it survive,  but how long and then what? 

http://www.woolmark.com/globalassets/woolmark/inspiration/activewear/merinoperform/merinoperform_eng.pdf/

In the days before we had any options I suspect the answer was to make sure you had somewhere dry every night and a fire to dry stuff out next too.  Of course soldiers have managed to survive with woollen clothing for hundreds of year in all weathers.  Though campaigning in winter was always seen as a bad idea, just ask Napoleon.  For all the horrors of WW1 millions of soldiers survived for weeks st a time in the rain and the mud without it being an automatic death sentence.

[Aloha]

Can't argue with you at all Gareth.  I guess seeing this from the perspective of why things clothing has changed.  Yes to everything you've mentioned.  I see current evolution of materials coming as a result of good is not good enough.  Wool in particular as addressed in the link has undergone changes.  The wool product in the link seems to have addressed issues wool had/has.  It seems they have a wind and water repellency dialed in.  As a result of this discussion I am learning more about newer wool products and technologies applied.   
I want to be clear wool is amazing I just never thought of wool as an outer layer in wet conditions.  I have several lovely pieces that are not ideal for wet weather.  I also don't live in an area that sees much rain.   The link I shared should be very clear that wool is a must for anyone looking for a truly amazing performance material.  The industry has clearly been making some terrific strides in wools capabilities.  I am not 100% convinced wool is the best choice for prolonged wet weather.  This was not the OP question but as in any good conversation we've touched on many ( to me ) relevant side topics and discussions.  There is lots to learn and this thread has been great for that.     

   
       

[MadPlumbarian]

I’ve always wanted one of those old school packing coats with the sheeps collar, but in the long run would probably be better off with a hood, but after learning about these military wool blanket pull overs and how warm they are I’ve really been interested, but I’ve never liked pull overs, I kinda always liked a button or zipper down, but again, the pricing is through the roof, I guess I’d have to make my own, I did find these but they no longer sell them, at the same time they don’t zipper or button, just use a belt, but that’s easy, to throw some buttons on,,
JR

[Aloha]

MadP, there has to be someone who has free wool blanket coat patterns online.  I'm sure you can make one for the price of the blanket, zippers, thread, time, for much cheaper than $300.  Go go it.