Wool as an outer layer

[AlephZero]

When talking about wool in respects to layers I think of modern wool blends such a merino wool. Those fabrics are engineered to be used as base layers in order to wick away moisture from your skin. Many wool products used as mid layers for earth retention as well but are heavier than modern synthetics and not as warm as down.
So any wool product that is used in moisture wicking will not distinguish between moisture in the skin or from precipitation. It will absorb it. The only way to protect the wool is to use a DWR coating to help shed water. This really isn't an advantage of the wool bc you can really coat anything with this DWR coating for a similar result.
So comparing a wool item to another coat or fleece material really depends on more factors than just water resistance. Many synthetic materials will be better suited to use in wet weather vs wool (as well as down). For example, suppose you were hiking and found yourself completely wet from a sudden rain storm or falling in a creek and you outer layer brackets soaked. If you are wearing wool it's becomes wet and now is a heat delink sucking away you body heat. A down coat becomes utterly useless. But a premium synthetic like primaloft/thermoball will retain warmth every when soaked.
The benefits to wool over synthetic are the ruggedness and somewhat fire retardant qualities compared to synthetics. However wool
Is heavier for the amount of warmth.
Also wools like merino are excellent at odor control.
Just like any clothing choice you dress for the environment/conditions. If you where in a cooler environment that wasn't expecting a lot of rain, wool would be a fine choice. If there was rain in the forecast just add a shell over it as your outer layer as with any other situation.

Except you're wrong, wool keeps you warm even when when wet 

[4everYoung]

When talking about wool in respects to layers I think of modern wool blends such a merino wool. Those fabrics are engineered to be used as base layers in order to wick away moisture from your skin. Many wool products used as mid layers for earth retention as well but are heavier than modern synthetics and not as warm as down.
So any wool product that is used in moisture wicking will not distinguish between moisture in the skin or from precipitation. It will absorb it. The only way to protect the wool is to use a DWR coating to help shed water. This really isn't an advantage of the wool bc you can really coat anything with this DWR coating for a similar result.
So comparing a wool item to another coat or fleece material really depends on more factors than just water resistance. Many synthetic materials will be better suited to use in wet weather vs wool (as well as down). For example, suppose you were hiking and found yourself completely wet from a sudden rain storm or falling in a creek and you outer layer brackets soaked. If you are wearing wool it's becomes wet and now is a heat delink sucking away you body heat. A down coat becomes utterly useless. But a premium synthetic like primaloft/thermoball will retain warmth every when soaked.
The benefits to wool over synthetic are the ruggedness and somewhat fire retardant qualities compared to synthetics. However wool
Is heavier for the amount of warmth.
Also wools like merino are excellent at odor control.
Just like any clothing choice you dress for the environment/conditions. If you where in a cooler environment that wasn't expecting a lot of rain, wool would be a fine choice. If there was rain in the forecast just add a shell over it as your outer layer as with any other situation.

Except you're wrong, wool keeps you warm even when when wet 

Let's leave subjective opinion alone here and discuss facts.
1. water is a better conductor of heat than is air.
2. the human body produces heat and try's to maintain that certain level of body heat.
3 the human body uses this principle to regulate its temperature in the form of sweat. Because moisture pulls body heat away quicker than air alone.

Let's look at wools properties for a moment. It is a pretty incredible fabric. On one hand it is hydrophilic (moisture loving) and on the other it is hydrophobic (moisture resistant). When configured as a typically worn coat or shirt etc the hydrophilic nature is toward the body and the hydrophobic away from the body. This allows moisture to be pulled away from the body and evaporated away. The outer is hydrophobic and resists moisture to a certain degree.
Next the structure of the wool itself is important because it provides the warmth/ heat mitigation portion. The wool structure creates tiny air pockets between the fibers. As discussed above, air is a poor conductor of heat. So these air pockets keep the body heat in.
Like I said wool is a pretty fantastic fabric.

Now what happens to wool when wet? The claim is that wool keeps you warm when wet. Well let's see how that stacks up to scientific evidence.

First let's qualify what I mean by wet. I don't mean damp, I mean wet in the sense of soaked. In regards to let's say you where wearing all your clothes and fall into an icy river. So you are soaked from outside to your skin.
Now we all know what the first thing you should do if such an event occurs. The most common training is to completely strip down our if all you clothing to bare skin.
Why is this? Again it goes back to the first part about air vs water as a conductor. While cold, you loose body heat less quickly by being naked vs wearing any or all of those garments that are now wet including the wool.
But the claim for wool is it keeps you warm while wet. So why doesn't it do so in this case if it is such a miraculous material? Simple, wool can not violate physical law.
As I discussed  how wool maintains heat and its structure construction are vital to understanding this. First off, wool is not impermeable. It has a slight resistance to water on its hydrophobic side, but it will/does become saturated. Wool will absorb a certain amount of moisture and still maintaining all of its properties of warmth. It's commonly referenced that wool can absorb around 30% or 1/3 of it weight while maintaining these properties. This speaks to the efficiency of the wool to pull moisture and have it evaporated. So a wool garment weighing 10oz can actually sustain 3oz of water/perspiration before it starts to lose performance   Once it reaches this benchmark the wool performances begins to decrease. This is because the fibers themselves become more saturated than they can evaporate/dry. This allows heat to escape thru the moisture in the fibers vs being trapped by those air pockets. So the more moisture the more rapid the heat loss. So if wool begins losing it properties of warmth around 30% then it exponentially increases as moisture increases. So you get colder faster at 50% saturation vs 30%. Well in my description of wet you would be at 100% saturation(or very close to it). A wet shirt or sock or wool or cotton or synthetic material all does the same thing. It acts as a heat sink rapidly drawing heat away from your body.
This is why removing it allows you a better chance to regain heat vs leaving them on.
So if all fabric suffer the same fate, then what is the big deal? Well it's not so much about how they act at full saturation but how quickly they recover and dry. While wool does recover much better than cotton products, it still takes a much longer time to dry than a synthetic product. This is because synthetic(performance based) do not absorb nearly the amount of water that wool will. Less water retention means quicker drying times because the air pockets are still insulating. Quicker drying means less moisture to pull heat from your body and therefore you become warmer quicker.

Now if we look at a real world scenario, you wear a wool coat and get caught in hard down pour leaving your coat soaked thru, you will be no warmer wearing it. Because remember a coat that is soaked thru(wet) will conduct heat faster than one that is not. So a now wet coat will become even more subjected to wind chill.

Now back to opinion: I stand by my statement that wool is a good midlayer or top layer if there isn't a lot of water or moisture. (Effectively meaning the coat won't exceed the saturation level where performance decreases. ) so you you has lite drizzle all day and you were not in it, sure it's fine. But if you are in constant rain that will soak the garment, you need an impermeable outer shell to retain your wools performance. Otherwise in a situation where saturation is highly likely a performance synthetic is a better option, simply for the quicker drying abilities.

As to the claim of wool keep you warm when wet, it is false in the broad sense. Physical science shows that to be the case. However you will have those people jumping up and down claiming to have experience to the contrary. I will say that if fully put to the test, you will see that in most instances there are more variables that have to be considered to make that claim true. Like ability of the person to accurately gauge their own drop in temperature, how much physical activity was being done to maintain warmth, what is the ambient temperature, how much saturation was the fabric actually at?
If you still think it's wrong, I challenge you to do the ice bucket challenge. Fill a cooler/ or bucket with ice water. Put one foot in the bucket bare. The other foot in the bucket while wearing a wool sock. Leave them in there long enough for the sock to get wet or as long as you can stand. Remove both feet and see which foot gets warmer faster.
If your claim is correct, the wool sock will keep that foot warmer than the bare one.

[Gerhard Gerber]

I have several fleeces with holes burnt in the sleeves......

[styx]

I have several fleeces with holes burnt in the sleeves......

That is an issue I have with the modern usage of the word fleece - it can be used for wool, a wool - synthetic blend and a synthetic fabric.

In regards to wool being wet and keeping you warm, easy experiment. Put on something made from wool and see if you feel warmer or colder. Stand in front of an air current (a fan can do the job on a higher setting) and record your findings. Next add water to the clothing and repeat those two steps. Would be a lot easier if one had a thermal camera so subjectivity goes out the window and slowly adds water to simulate different kinds of weather conditions and being exposed to the same (even if caught for 5 minutes in a downpour it should be no big deal)

[Syncop8r]

I think that experiment would only confirm what everyone knows: that you will be colder wearing wet wool than dry wool. Shouldn't the comparison be between wet wool, wet other fabrics, and wet bare skin?

If I got saturated I would take off my woolens, wring them out, then put them back on as surely the wind chill would be much less than for wet bare skin.

Fleece: the old meaning is an animals coat of wool; when people use the word these days it seems they are referring to Polar Fleece, a fabric made from polyester. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_fleece

[Steinar]

I think the point is wool can carry quite a lot of moisture without feeling wet, because of the properties mentioned above, so it can lower loss of heat even though it is wet as such. If you have enough water trapped that you get conductive heat loss through it to the outer water layer, you are basically fscked whatever fabric you are wearing. Personally, I find wool as an outer layer pretty ridiculous in a windy and/or wet climate. Yes, wool has to a certain degree been used in these parts as that too, but that was very heavy, often felted, garments, and usually with the original lanolin intact to make it repel water to some degree. That goes for many historical examples in this thread as well, it was smelly garments with the original fat intact, not nice, modern, non-smelly garments which will absorb water much quicker. A layered approach, with wool between the skin and an outer water repelling, wind proof layer, that's the good stuff.

Edit: Basically the short version of what 4everYoung posted, with some extra history.

[Gareth]

Very interesting thread gents.  My take on it is this; there's wool and then there's wool. 

A thick knitted wool jumper/sweater will keep you warm as a mid layer or as long as it's not getting windy or wet, and I'm sorry to say I don't believe that a soaked jumper will be keeping you warm.  It might be technically better than some synthetic alternatives, but not enough to make a significant difference. 

On the other hand you've also got thick, tightly woven wool coats/jackets that actually aren't so warm (tiny air pockets) but are notably wind resistant and do a very good job of keeping you dry.  I've got a old Swedish Army coat and an Merchant Navy greatcoat, both of which I've worn in some terrible weather without any issues.  However I'd always want to be able to dry them off overnight and they're both bloody heavy. 

I've also got a few wool shirts that tread a middle ground of not being heavy, being more wind resistant than a jumper and still being warm when damp, BUT are bulky to pack and certainly not what I'd consider an outer layer when the weather turns wet and nasty.

I don't think there's a magic answer here, but I do think that it's an option if you don't expect it to be all things to everyone.

[Etherealicer]

I have an old Swiss military coat that is made of wool



They are nicknamed "Kaputt", meaning defective
Pro
- Fairly comfortable even when the sun is burning down
- Fairly rain resistant (unless you are out and about in heavy rain for a prolonged time, you will stay dry)
- Its warm

Con
- heavy when dry, real heavy when wet
- smelly when wet
- does not breath well when wet (it really gets hot in that coat)

Now this is an old wool coat and its still a fairly good choice (especially since I can get one for less than 10$), as I have no experience with modern wool Jackets/Coats I cannot comment on those. But a modern outdoors Jacket will resist rain longer and breath better and given the choice I think modern outdoor jackets outperform a coat like this by a long margin.

[styx]

Damn, forgot to even think about how tightly they are woven.

Well as Syncop8r said, a big test could give us all some clue. So who's in for getting drenched to the bone and standing in the wind for science?

Btw Etherealicer, really less than $10? How the hell didn't I see those shops?

[4everYoung]

https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ

These guys do it, I'll take their word.

[Gareth]

https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ

These guys do it, I'll take their word.

I'm sorry to say I'm not quite ready to do that.  I'm just thinking out loud here so bear with me but; if it's that cold, why isn't the wet clothing freezing?  The only answer I can think of (other than it isn't as cold as they are saying it is) is that it's the guy's body doing it and so it has to be taking warmth out of him.  I'm concerned that he is feeling warm because of rapid blood flow to the skin and extremities, which isn't what you want at all.  Even if that isn't the case then he's still using vital calories to keep that water logged clothing warm and that simply isn't sustainable over any real amount of time. 

If I'm looking at this the wrong way please feel free to correct me. 

[4everYoung]

https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ

These guys do it, I'll take their word.

I'm sorry to say I'm not quite ready to do that.  I'm just thinking out loud here so bear with me but; if it's that cold, why isn't the wet clothing freezing?  The only answer I can think of (other than it isn't as cold as they are saying it is) is that it's the guy's body doing it and so it has to be taking warmth out of him.  I'm concerned that he is feeling warm because of rapid blood flow to the skin and extremities, which isn't what you want at all.  Even if that isn't the case then he's still using vital calories to keep that water logged clothing warm and that simply isn't sustainable over any real amount of time. 

If I'm looking at this the wrong way please feel free to correct me. 

Here is the full video. At the beginning you can see the temperature on the thermometer.
Heat is built up from the body and because whatever type of synthetic material (I believe Aries branded) isn't hydrophilic. So it does not soak up water. There fore it does not lose the air insulating properties. The heat from his body is being trapped between the skin and the insulating layers. Just as it has been doing before they take a dunk. All the materials they are wearing are hydrophobic. So water is running off and draining due to gravity and what he expels from squeezing it. What moisture is left is warmed from the trapped body heat.
That's the short version anyway.
https://youtu.be/6Sx6SJf1hTU

[Don Pablo]

https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ

These guys do it, I'll take their word.

I'm sorry to say I'm not quite ready to do that.  I'm just thinking out loud here so bear with me but; if it's that cold, why isn't the wet clothing freezing?  The only answer I can think of (other than it isn't as cold as they are saying it is) is that it's the guy's body doing it and so it has to be taking warmth out of him.  I'm concerned that he is feeling warm because of rapid blood flow to the skin and extremities, which isn't what you want at all.  Even if that isn't the case then he's still using vital calories to keep that water logged clothing warm and that simply isn't sustainable over any real amount of time. 

If I'm looking at this the wrong way please feel free to correct me. 

Here is the full video. At the beginning you can see the temperature on the thermometer.
Heat is built up from the body and because whatever type of synthetic material (I believe Aries branded) isn't hydrophilic. So it does not soak up water. There fore it does not lose the air insulating properties. The heat from his body is being trapped between the skin and the insulating layers. Just as it has been doing before they take a dunk. All the materials they are wearing are hydrophobic. So water is running off and draining due to gravity and what he expels from squeezing it. What moisture is left is warmed from the trapped body heat.
That's the short version anyway.
https://youtu.be/6Sx6SJf1hTU

So that stuff is much better than wool, because you can dry it off much more easily then wool? 

[4everYoung]

https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ

These guys do it, I'll take their word.

I'm sorry to say I'm not quite ready to do that.  I'm just thinking out loud here so bear with me but; if it's that cold, why isn't the wet clothing freezing?  The only answer I can think of (other than it isn't as cold as they are saying it is) is that it's the guy's body doing it and so it has to be taking warmth out of him.  I'm concerned that he is feeling warm because of rapid blood flow to the skin and extremities, which isn't what you want at all.  Even if that isn't the case then he's still using vital calories to keep that water logged clothing warm and that simply isn't sustainable over any real amount of time. 

If I'm looking at this the wrong way please feel free to correct me. 

So that stuff is much better than wool, because you can dry it off much more easily then wool? 

In one sense, yes. When comparing this  to wool for the same purpose. Which in the case of the video would be taking a plunge into frozen over body of water. The wool would take much longer to recover from the effects of this than does this material. Do to the nature of the insulating fibers.
If you added an wind proof layer over the wool it would significantly increase the effect of the wool to not lose heat thru water convection if soaked. But then if you do that, that kinda defeats the purpose of this thread to begin with as that would make wool a mid layer not an outer layer.

[MadPlumbarian]

I so want one of those wool coats made out of a heavy military blanket, but there so freaking expensive..
JR

[Gareth]

https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ

These guys do it, I'll take their word.

I'm sorry to say I'm not quite ready to do that.  I'm just thinking out loud here so bear with me but; if it's that cold, why isn't the wet clothing freezing?  The only answer I can think of (other than it isn't as cold as they are saying it is) is that it's the guy's body doing it and so it has to be taking warmth out of him.  I'm concerned that he is feeling warm because of rapid blood flow to the skin and extremities, which isn't what you want at all.  Even if that isn't the case then he's still using vital calories to keep that water logged clothing warm and that simply isn't sustainable over any real amount of time. 

If I'm looking at this the wrong way please feel free to correct me. 

Here is the full video. At the beginning you can see the temperature on the thermometer.
Heat is built up from the body and because whatever type of synthetic material (I believe Aries branded) isn't hydrophilic. So it does not soak up water. There fore it does not lose the air insulating properties. The heat from his body is being trapped between the skin and the insulating layers. Just as it has been doing before they take a dunk. All the materials they are wearing are hydrophobic. So water is running off and draining due to gravity and what he expels from squeezing it. What moisture is left is warmed from the trapped body heat.
That's the short version anyway.
https://youtu.be/6Sx6SJf1hTU

Ah, so it's the extreme hydrophobic nature of the material that's in effect here, though I can't see what it's actually made of on their site.  "water moves away from heat" is a statement I'm a little confused by.    I'm still not 100% convinced that a material that works when wet will also work if it's frozen, so I'd not want to use it in an overnight scenario where you want to stop moving.  I'd also be interested in seeing some body thermometers and thermal cameras in use rather than relying on how things "feel" as well.  Of course, the fact he doesn't appear to be dying is pretty impressive.

[styx]

so... no streaking?

[Don Pablo]

so... no streaking?

Not unless you're a polar bear

[AlephZero]

Wet wool is still better than no wool, let alone cotton

[knifty]

Wet wool is still better than no wool, let alone cotton

This. Water saturates wool, but not to the extent that a cotton garment will. That's part of the whole "wool insulates when wet" lore. Nowadays, synthetics will dry quicker than wool because they absorb less water than wool.

I assume wool's made a resurgence because people got fed up with stinky synthetic base layers, and global trade allowing merino wool from New Zealand to be spread all over the world. Merino wool is unlike most wool of the 90s in that it's a lot finer so it's not as itchy. Icebreaker and Ibex are the larger names in the States selling merino garments.

I wouldn't consider wool to be the miracle fabric for the outdoors. Benefits are that it's more odor resistant (though there's a wet dog smell in my opinion), it doesn't melt near a fire, and DEET also won't melt it. In terms of durability, it really depends on the weave, but I'd argue synthetics are more durable because they won't generally stretch and they're also generally cheaper, so you're not as precious with them.

If you plan on being wet a lot, go with synthetics. The lanolin in wool does help it shed water (you'll see water bead on the surface), but in a downpour, it's still going to soak through.

All this being said, I love my wool socks.

[knifty]

It's next to impossible to find any wool clothing in North America now, short of some boutique/outdoor brand (i.e. super expensive). I've tried some wool mid layer for winter sports but gravitated towards primaloft type, wool doesn't have good warmth/weight ratio in comparison. I'm sure it's much more durable though if you crawl in and out of trees all winter long.

LL Bean still sells wool sweaters. Though the cheaper option is to just buy an oversized wool sweater from a thrift store if you need a cheap midlayer. But you're right, synthetics have sadly taken over much of textiles. Natural fibers will soon be luxury details in a decade or so.

[Aloha]

It's next to impossible to find any wool clothing in North America now, short of some boutique/outdoor brand (i.e. super expensive). I've tried some wool mid layer for winter sports but gravitated towards primaloft type, wool doesn't have good warmth/weight ratio in comparison. I'm sure it's much more durable though if you crawl in and out of trees all winter long.

LL Bean still sells wool sweaters. Though the cheaper option is to just buy an oversized wool sweater from a thrift store if you need a cheap midlayer. But you're right, synthetics have sadly taken over much of textiles. Natural fibers will soon be luxury details in a decade or so.

This is exactly where I get my wool garments from.   

[4everYoung]

It's next to impossible to find any wool clothing in North America now, short of some boutique/outdoor brand (i.e. super expensive). I've tried some wool mid layer for winter sports but gravitated towards primaloft type, wool doesn't have good warmth/weight ratio in comparison. I'm sure it's much more durable though if you crawl in and out of trees all winter long.

LL Bean still sells wool sweaters. Though the cheaper option is to just buy an oversized wool sweater from a thrift store if you need a cheap midlayer. But you're right, synthetics have sadly taken over much of textiles. Natural fibers will soon be luxury details in a decade or so.

REI is a good source of wool products but their stuff isn't cheap.

[styx]

so... no streaking?

Not unless you're a polar bear

with the amount of gray (actually white) hair, I might as well be

[Gareth]

I do find it a little sad that you chaps can't get wool clothing easily any more.    It's still common enough here I'm happy to say and though it's not always cheap I've managed to pick up a good few bargains over the years.

[styx]

It's next to impossible to find any wool clothing in North America now, short of some boutique/outdoor brand (i.e. super expensive). I've tried some wool mid layer for winter sports but gravitated towards primaloft type, wool doesn't have good warmth/weight ratio in comparison. I'm sure it's much more durable though if you crawl in and out of trees all winter long.

LL Bean still sells wool sweaters. Though the cheaper option is to just buy an oversized wool sweater from a thrift store if you need a cheap midlayer. But you're right, synthetics have sadly taken over much of textiles. Natural fibers will soon be luxury details in a decade or so.

REI is a good source of wool products but their stuff isn't cheap.

You could also check out the tractor supply type stores, surplus stores and similar. About 15 years ago I got a sweater similar to the one in the picture for under $10 in an agricultural supply store and it lasted for about 12 years. It was warm and it survived the manual labor jobs

[Steinar]

Wool is getting more and more popular here, partly on cause of the increasing awareness of problems with release of microplastics from washing clothes like synthetic fleece.

[styx]

Wool is getting more and more popular here, partly on cause of the increasing awareness of problems with release of microplastics from washing clothes like synthetic fleece.

Wasn't even aware that microplastics are being released by washing synthetics

[Don Pablo]

Wool is getting more and more popular here, partly on cause of the increasing awareness of problems with release of microplastics from washing clothes like synthetic fleece.

Wasn't even aware that microplastics are being released by washing synthetics

Ditto.
If there is, wouldn't you just need a filter?

[Gareth]

It's next to impossible to find any wool clothing in North America now, short of some boutique/outdoor brand (i.e. super expensive). I've tried some wool mid layer for winter sports but gravitated towards primaloft type, wool doesn't have good warmth/weight ratio in comparison. I'm sure it's much more durable though if you crawl in and out of trees all winter long.

LL Bean still sells wool sweaters. Though the cheaper option is to just buy an oversized wool sweater from a thrift store if you need a cheap midlayer. But you're right, synthetics have sadly taken over much of textiles. Natural fibers will soon be luxury details in a decade or so.

REI is a good source of wool products but their stuff isn't cheap.

You could also check out the tractor supply type stores, surplus stores and similar. About 15 years ago I got a sweater similar to the one in the picture for under $10 in an agricultural supply store and it lasted for about 12 years. It was warm and it survived the manual labor jobs

(Image removed from quote.)

I picked up a genuine British Army surplus "Woolly Pully" and it's the warmest jumper I own by a long way.  Made to be squaddie-proof, if not quite bulletproof.