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Wool as an outer layer

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nz Offline Syncop8r

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #90 on: September 08, 2017, 12:21:20 AM
I only have one merino T shirt so far (I got it on special) so I generally don't wear it unless I really need to. Otherwise synthetic.

They're on special now that we're out of Winter so I should get some more - starting from about $30USD.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 12:29:12 AM by Syncop8r »


us Offline 4everYoung

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #91 on: September 08, 2017, 01:01:37 AM
I only have one merino T shirt so far (I got it on special) so I generally don't wear it unless I really need to. Otherwise synthetic.

They're on special now that we're out of Winter so I should get some more - starting from about $30USD.
That's pretty good for a merino wool shirt.


us Offline ducttapetech

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #92 on: September 08, 2017, 01:38:11 AM
Have the cotton base layer enthusiasts here tried merino?

(Oh and a draughtsman's trick: You can type the degrees symbol by holding down ALT and typing 0176 or 0186.)
Never did, though not for the lack of wanting.  I believe it's come down in price some now, but it used to be smurfing expensive here.  Something to do with it coming from the other side of the world I suspect. :D
I have. Rather rock cotton as a base layer. Like I said before, keeping warm for me is easy, keeping cool, not so much. Not wearing wool as a base layer or synthetic for that matter. Tried it and it didn't work for me. Wool as an mid or outer layer is great. Has anyone else used or tried cotton as a base layer?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 01:43:51 AM by ducttapetech »
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us Offline 4everYoung

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #93 on: September 08, 2017, 02:08:11 AM
Have the cotton base layer enthusiasts here tried merino?

(Oh and a draughtsman's trick: You can type the degrees symbol by holding down ALT and typing 0176 or 0186.)
Never did, though not for the lack of wanting.  I believe it's come down in price some now, but it used to be smurfing expensive here.  Something to do with it coming from the other side of the world I suspect. :D
I have. Rather rock cotton as a base layer. Like I said before, keeping warm for me is easy, keeping cool, not so much. Not wearing wool as a base layer or synthetic for that matter. Tried it and it didn't work for me. Wool as an mid or outer layer is great. Has anyone else used or tried cotton as a base layer?
I have used cotton for mist if my life. And in my experience, I wound up cold. We used to be heavy into kayak camping for 3-5 day trips. At that time synthetic shirts were still $$$ and I had "more important " stuff to spend money on. So I alway works plain cotton shirts. When the weather was hot it wasn't bad being wet. However after getting off the river I would always freeze once the sun went down and I was sitting around. I carried a spare shirt but after the 3rd day all shirts had been wet and remained damp. Putting a damp cotton shirt on in the morning was not pleasant.
I found a Patagonia synthetic shirt on extreme discount and tried it. Man it was so much better. I could come off the river wet and ring my shirt, hang it in a limb.(wearing my rain jacket). Then within an hour it was dry. Faster than my shirts were too.
Since then I've been redesigning my wardrobe. I still wear cotton when out on the town, but any work or aerobic activities I choose synthetics.


nz Offline Syncop8r

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #94 on: September 08, 2017, 02:58:42 AM
I have used cotton for most of my life. And in my experience, I wound up cold...
...I still wear cotton when out on the town, but any work or aerobic activities I choose synthetics.
Me too.  :salute:  Except merino if really cold or away from civilisation.

There is also cooling from evaporation with waterlogged fabrics.


hr Offline styx

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #95 on: September 08, 2017, 08:08:07 AM
This might be a silly question but when the synthetic pulls the sweat away from your body, doesn't it go towards the mid layer and makes it wet with sweat?

As a side note I remember reading the logic of good waterproof shells is similar to that of a wetsuit - you'll get wet but it is there to keep you warm (warmer sweat vs cold rain/snow and wind)
Solving problems you didn't know you had in the most obscure way possible

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scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #96 on: September 08, 2017, 09:27:49 AM
I've not read this article in a while, but IIRC it's very pertinent to this thread. http://woodtrekker.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/classic-backpacking-gear-clothing.html
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


us Offline 4everYoung

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #97 on: September 08, 2017, 03:07:32 PM
This might be a silly question but when the synthetic pulls the sweat away from your body, doesn't it go towards the mid layer and makes it wet with sweat?

As a side note I remember reading the logic of good waterproof shells is similar to that of a wetsuit - you'll get wet but it is there to keep you warm (warmer sweat vs cold rain/snow and wind)

The first priority would be to mitigate the amount of perspiration you develop. So don't get too warm that you sweat out your clothes. Again your body wants to maintain a certain temp and it will sweat more to cool down. However the benefit to dressing in layers is that you shed those layers or replace them to maintain your core temp. So even though it is extremely cold out, if you are  in an aerobic task that produces heat, you need lea clothing. This is why you see many mountain  hikers/backpackers in only long sleeve base layers while trekking.

Secondly let's suppose you just sweat a lot (as some people do) regardless of how hot you are. In this case you couldn't mitigate the amount of moisture build up. So the only solution would be to get rid of it as rapidly as possible. Choosing a material that wicks moisture but dries fast is much better in this case vs a material that wicks and stores moisture. Let's suppose you wear a synthetic base and it gets wet. You have mid layer over it. Now the concert would be that the mid layer would get wet. Unless your mid layer was not breathable it would work just the same as the base layer.
The 2nd layer of thermal dynamics describes how heat always moves from hot to cold. This is the same way the wicking system works. The hot air at your skin is always trying to move away towards the cooler ambient air. Therefore the moisture is also moving in the same direction. That would be towards the outside.
So you can see it would be very important that you should choose a mid layer that was moisture wicking and breathable as well.
Also you have to account for the air currents between the layers that would dry the base off before it is absorbed by the mid layer. While you may get a hot spot (like where your packs presses the layer together) overall you layers aren't in direct contact all the time.

Finally the point about a waterproof layer is true. An impermeable layer helps keep convection currents from robbing heat. However if you use a waterproof layer without ventilation during high aerobic exercise, you are gonna be just as wet on the inside. Warmer at that moment, yea but when you stop you will be cold almost instantly once the outer layer is removed. All the build up moisture/heat is trapped. Again thermal dynamics tells us that the greater the difference in temps ten more rapidly the heat loss. Take in account of being wet, along with that and you have a recipe for sudden heat loss. At that point you would have to change clothes.
When giving an outer shell, it would be better to have one that is venting and breathable. Use your insulating layers for warmth and your waterproof layer for water shedding. Or else you are fighting against the base and mid layers by not letting them breathe.
Of course there are certain exceptions to every case. But like I said before you have to dress for the environment and task you are in.


us Offline 4everYoung

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #98 on: September 08, 2017, 03:14:00 PM
I've not read this article in a while, but IIRC it's very pertinent to this thread. http://woodtrekker.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/classic-backpacking-gear-clothing.html

The same author has conducted a test on the "wool keeps you warm when wet" myth. It's quite interesting to see the results and then see the amount of people that still argue against them.

http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012/03/does-wool-keep-you-warm-when-wet.html?m=1

And someone else decided to conduct another test because they denied his results. See this article as well

http://stuffadamdid.blogspot.com/2015/02/data-on-effectiveness-of-wool-and.html?m=1

They are both long reads but interesting if you are really into the subject matter.


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #99 on: September 09, 2017, 01:08:28 AM
As it happens I'm going for a two day hike tomorrow and I've packed some wool to wear as part of a retro vibe.  Primarily I'm wearing wool trousers and have packed my Woolly Pully, though I'm not expecting to need that until the evening when we've made camp.  If you don't hear back from me then you'll know the experiment has gone wrong. :D
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #100 on: September 09, 2017, 01:35:52 AM
I've not read this article in a while, but IIRC it's very pertinent to this thread. http://woodtrekker.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/classic-backpacking-gear-clothing.html

The same author has conducted a test on the "wool keeps you warm when wet" myth. It's quite interesting to see the results and then see the amount of people that still argue against them.

http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012/03/does-wool-keep-you-warm-when-wet.html?m=1

And someone else decided to conduct another test because they denied his results. See this article as well

http://stuffadamdid.blogspot.com/2015/02/data-on-effectiveness-of-wool-and.html?m=1

They are both long reads but interesting if you are really into the subject matter.

very good reading there. :tu:  It does rather seem to support my experience that nothing will keep you warm when wet and expecting it too is a fast way to a very miserable time, at best.
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


hr Offline styx

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #101 on: September 09, 2017, 03:33:06 PM
Good luck and don't chafe on your trip
Solving problems you didn't know you had in the most obscure way possible

"And now, it's time to hand this over to our tame race axe driver. Some say, he can live in the forest for six months at a time without food, and he knows of a secret tribe of only women where he is their God. All we know is, he's call the Styx!" - TazzieRob


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #102 on: September 10, 2017, 09:39:49 PM
Good luck and don't chafe on your trip

cheers. :D  nope, no chaffing here and no other issues either.  Saturday was rather warm and my under-shirt did get sweaty, but I changed out of it after setting up camp and was perfectly warm in my jumper once the sun went down.  Today was raining pretty much all day, so the woollens went away and the waterproofs took over.
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


us Offline 4everYoung

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #103 on: September 10, 2017, 11:06:54 PM
Being that the weather is cooling off here. I've been buying newer layers to try out in attempts of more refining my fall/winter/spring wardrobe. This week I've been working with a new 100w fleece and a North Face kilowatt hybrid jacket.(half thermoball/fleece).

After that I'm going to start on long underwear. Mainly thin merino and synthetics.

I've been happy with my shell choices. As Ive been working in them for the past couple years.


hr Offline styx

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #104 on: September 11, 2017, 08:42:32 AM
Hope I get a job soon so I can check out what all the fuss is about with synthetic and merino base layers. And if they work for me
Solving problems you didn't know you had in the most obscure way possible

"And now, it's time to hand this over to our tame race axe driver. Some say, he can live in the forest for six months at a time without food, and he knows of a secret tribe of only women where he is their God. All we know is, he's call the Styx!" - TazzieRob


ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #105 on: September 11, 2017, 04:39:44 PM
Btw Etherealicer, really less than $10? How the hell didn't I see those shops?
You didn't go to a thrift store then...
It wouldn't be the internet without people complaining.


hr Offline styx

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #106 on: September 11, 2017, 08:04:47 PM
Btw Etherealicer, really less than $10? How the hell didn't I see those shops?
You didn't go to a thrift store then...

obviously 
Solving problems you didn't know you had in the most obscure way possible

"And now, it's time to hand this over to our tame race axe driver. Some say, he can live in the forest for six months at a time without food, and he knows of a secret tribe of only women where he is their God. All we know is, he's call the Styx!" - TazzieRob


us Offline 4everYoung

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #107 on: September 14, 2017, 01:55:26 AM
So I had an interesting experience I thought I would share. We had the remaining rain from Irma come through last night. I was working inside for the most part. However I had to run out quickly and check somethings. I leaned out over a railing and my cotton shirt got soaked on my right side from my lower stomach to the under arm area.
Under the shirt I was wearing a synthetic t-shirt. It too had become wet.
The temp was around 50*F. So instead of just removing the cotton shirt I decided to conduct a scientific experiment. I left both shirts on and then put my thermoball jacket over it.
In about 5min I didn't notice being cold and wet anymore. I unzipped the jacket to see what happened and it was instantly cold again. Both shirts still wet  at the time.
After about 10min more sitting I checked the synthetic by reaching under the shirt from the bottom. It was no longer wet but slightly damp. The cotton shirt was still wet. Neither was cold however as the thermoball insulation is awesome. It retained quite a bit of heat.
After about 30min I rechecked again. This time the synthetic shirt was dry against my skin. The outer shirt still felt damp but was hard to tell with feeling under a jacket. So I unzipped to see. Almost instantly I felt cold. The shirt was visibly still wet/damp. I pulled the cotton shirt off and the synthetic shirt instantly felt warmer. (In that area of my body)
I threw the shirt and jacket back on and waited another 20min. This time I was quite toasty and upon checking the shirt was mostly dry. You could still see the outline of the darker wet area but it was no longer transmitting cold feeling through the synthetic shirt.

My conclusion was that I was considerably colder in the wet cotton for longer vs the synthetic. However while wearing an insulating layer I felt warm and didn't notice a temp difference until I removed that layer.


nz Offline Syncop8r

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #108 on: September 14, 2017, 02:05:50 AM
Now try the same thing with other combinations including wool.  :pok:


hr Offline styx

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #109 on: September 14, 2017, 08:50:40 AM
Interesting results. Perhaps that is why I haven't had issues with cotton thus far
Solving problems you didn't know you had in the most obscure way possible

"And now, it's time to hand this over to our tame race axe driver. Some say, he can live in the forest for six months at a time without food, and he knows of a secret tribe of only women where he is their God. All we know is, he's call the Styx!" - TazzieRob


ca Offline JP

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #110 on: September 15, 2017, 03:16:53 PM
Skin to win. Let your hide harden up and grow in your winter coat.



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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #111 on: September 15, 2017, 03:21:29 PM
I heard that these, shaved and cut to size, also made to look old, are what the Nights Watch capes are made from.  :think:
http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/textiles-rugs/rugs/tejn-rug-white-art-30229077/

Random off-topic fact.  :angel:
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!


hr Offline styx

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #112 on: September 15, 2017, 08:15:00 PM
So you'll take the oath?
Solving problems you didn't know you had in the most obscure way possible

"And now, it's time to hand this over to our tame race axe driver. Some say, he can live in the forest for six months at a time without food, and he knows of a secret tribe of only women where he is their God. All we know is, he's call the Styx!" - TazzieRob


se Offline Fortytwo

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #113 on: September 19, 2017, 01:12:37 AM
I heard that these, shaved and cut to size, also made to look old, are what the Nights Watch capes are made from.  :think:
http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/textiles-rugs/rugs/tejn-rug-white-art-30229077/

Random off-topic fact.  :angel:

Indeed, they even released a set of instructions.



Source: http://time.com/4901655/ikea-game-of-thrones-rug-cape-diy/


ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #114 on: September 19, 2017, 01:23:09 AM
I heard that these, shaved and cut to size, also made to look old, are what the Nights Watch capes are made from.  :think:
http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/textiles-rugs/rugs/tejn-rug-white-art-30229077/

Random off-topic fact.  :angel:

Indeed, they even released a set of instructions.

(Image removed from quote.)

Source: http://time.com/4901655/ikea-game-of-thrones-rug-cape-diy/
That's missing the cape/cloak bit though.  :think:
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!


se Offline Fortytwo

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #115 on: September 19, 2017, 03:04:26 AM
I heard that these, shaved and cut to size, also made to look old, are what the Nights Watch capes are made from.  :think:
http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/textiles-rugs/rugs/tejn-rug-white-art-30229077/

Random off-topic fact.  :angel:

Indeed, they even released a set of instructions.

(Image removed from quote.)

Source: http://time.com/4901655/ikea-game-of-thrones-rug-cape-diy/
That's missing the cape/cloak bit though.  :think:

Well, I don't know how much is actually known on the topic since I believe it started as a short remark during an interview about other aspects of the production.

Looking at pictures it seems like the fur is mostly on and around their shoulders as shown in the IKEA picture and that their actual cloak is made from textile of some sort.


hr Offline styx

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #116 on: September 19, 2017, 09:05:08 AM
does Ikea sell swords as well? odd, I haven't seen 'em last time I was there
Solving problems you didn't know you had in the most obscure way possible

"And now, it's time to hand this over to our tame race axe driver. Some say, he can live in the forest for six months at a time without food, and he knows of a secret tribe of only women where he is their God. All we know is, he's call the Styx!" - TazzieRob


ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #117 on: September 19, 2017, 09:50:20 AM
I heard that these, shaved and cut to size, also made to look old, are what the Nights Watch capes are made from.  :think:
http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/textiles-rugs/rugs/tejn-rug-white-art-30229077/

Random off-topic fact.  :angel:

Indeed, they even released a set of instructions.

(Image removed from quote.)

Source: http://time.com/4901655/ikea-game-of-thrones-rug-cape-diy/
That's missing the cape/cloak bit though.  :think:

Well, I don't know how much is actually known on the topic since I believe it started as a short remark during an interview about other aspects of the production.

Looking at pictures it seems like the fur is mostly on and around their shoulders as shown in the IKEA picture and that their actual cloak is made from textile of some sort.
I think I'll get one from Ikea the next time I go there anyway.  ;)
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!


nz Offline Syncop8r

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #118 on: September 20, 2017, 11:43:54 PM
Wool has been worn as an outer layer in NZ for some time (albeit modified): http://www.swanndri.co.nz/bushshirts

Quote
The Swanndri, or "swanny" as it has been dubbed, was designed by William Broome (1873–1942). Since he registered Swanndri as a trademark on 23 December 1913, it has become an iconic New Zealand garment, and the term "swanny" has, to some extent at least, become a genericised trademark for heavy bush shirts within New Zealand.

Broome, born in Staffordshire, England, immigrated to New Zealand at age 21. A tailor by trade, he established a clothier and outfitters business, The Palatine that was located on Devon Street, New Plymouth. Part of his business involved sewing woollen fabric from mills in Wanganui, Kaiapoi and Wellington, into the Swanndri garments. The characteristics of the "swanny" design include its heavy dark fabric, often in a tartan pattern, hood and laced neck closure. In more recent designs, a zip has replaced the lace-up neck.

The original design was short sleeved, long in the back, and would be worn on top of work clothes for warmth and shower proofing. During production, these garments were dipped into a secret mixture and then dried. It is not known if Broome had been taught the method for shower proofing the fabric he used or whether he developed the formula himself. The mixture caused the garments to shrink unevenly so were sold as one size fits all.

According to the Swanndri’s corporate history, Broome’s design began after he was frustrated by the persistently rainy New Zealand weather. The name Swanndri was named by Broome because the rain would literally run off the back of the garment as it does on a swan. Although new colors and features have been incorporated into the Swanndri, Broom’s original design influence can still be seen in New Zealand and among other producers around the world.


us Offline 4everYoung

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Re: Wool as an outer layer
Reply #119 on: September 21, 2017, 12:29:57 AM
So wonder why he dipped them in that secret concoction??? Hmmm


 

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