24 hour Go Bag

[Grant Lamontagne]

It has been occurring to me lately that I really should set up more of a 24 hour Go Bag- basically a bug out bag with everything I could need for at least 24 hours.  Does anyone have something like this, and if so, what bag do you use and what is in it?

If you don't have something like this, what would be your thoughts if you were to make something like this?

Def

[Mechanickal]

I had one but I like the idea of bugging in more. Simple because chances of having to remain indoors are larger here then evacuating.

It's no longer a single kit. Alot got taken out during the move and found it's way into my EDC bag.

I used to have it in a military style Molle backpack, which was the worst idea ever since you don't want everyone to think you're a Rambo style guy with loads of stuff on you, even of you are. Not in an emergency and not during daily life either.

Pick something that blends in, doesn't raise red flags and turns you into a mugging target.
A backpack that works for you on long hikes is basicaly all you need. What's the difference after all?

Keep the rule of 3 in mind.
You can survive:
3 minutes without air,
3 hours without shelter,
3 days without water,
3 weeks without food.

You said 24h bag, so don't stuff it with food. It's extra weight and you'll survive 24h without it, even if you'll be hungry. (3 weeks without, remember?)

What do you need?
Shelter, anything from a tarp to a space blanket to a tent. Just depends on how much you can take with you.
Fire, you know whatever options you've got, I'm sure.
One tip though, a candle burns for a long time (4hours for a small one) gives quite some warmth and light for nearly no weight.

Water: you should make it for 3 days without, but you won't be feeling nearly the same as you are now after more then 1 day. I'd advice on carrying 2L per person, if possible.

What else? Typical basics.
First aid kit, paracord, flashlight, multitool and fixed blade/folder, glow sticks, some handkerchiefs (I carry a neck gaiter in my EDC bag. Gives you ALOT more options)
A change of clothes and underwear, prescripted meds, copy of your ID and driver's licence, spare batteries, phone without sim card (if you can make emergency calls without sim card in your country), collapsable water bowl, raincoat/throwaway rain poncho, gloves, ...
In your case a leish (correct word?) For your dogs in case you need to leave in a hurry.

Hope this helps

[BleaKrytE]

Mech said everything I would do. Except take some food. The kind athletes use, like those energy gels and electrolyte repositors, they should make a good difference. And more water, something like 3 liters, since you will be walking a lot. You can easily get more drinking water from hydrants, etc, but take a metal bottle, just in case. Bandana, of course, and some toilet paper (so many uses). And a battery powered radio is always useful.


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[raistlin65]

I think you can even take a Mountain House pack or two for food, or even just a few of those tuna foil packets (these can easily be eaten on the go).  You can always throw it out once you are on the go if you decide you have too much weight and don't need it.

To add to all of the other good suggestions, cash is very important, unless you can only imagine running to hide in the woods for a day. I've always thought that was kind of a strange way to look at it anyway. Exactly what scenario does one imagine where they will need to survive in the woods for only 24 hours AND they are at home or car and can grab their go bag? In fact, the whole 24 hour scenario is kind of weird when you think about it. In some ways the 72 hour bag makes more sense to me as a bug out bag.  On the other hand, a get home bag in the car, in case you have to walk from work, seems more realistic as a shorter period bag.

For radios, Kaito makes a really small AM/FM, the KA200, that could be a useful tiny radio to carry if it receives well in your area. 

[Grant Lamontagne]

Excellent point... I agree that a 72 hour bag makes a lot more sense.

Def

[MadPlumbarian]

An interesting subject, I have a unique setup, I have an everyday carry which has my must haves Incase of anything like,
Rx, matches, multitools, duct tape, notebook with pencil, utensils, flashlight, a lock pick, rain coat(cheepo) yet also 2 50gal trash bags which can be made into ponchos, since the rain coat can be made into a lean to, also a fak, paracord, and other things I can’t even think of. The bag is expanding so if while out and I need room to carry something all set, or if I’ve got to pack to leave there’s room to throw stuff in.

    Before I had a diff setup, one small bag which was my edc, but then a larger bag which was my b-o-b, the way I had it set up was the smaller bag clipped on the larger, so normally the little bag got used but then if it turned into a bad day, you clipped it onto the other and it turned it into a 24hr bob,
JR

[Breezy12]

to add my $0.02 to the great comments so far...

• I agree that cash is important to have (especially if this is more of a 72-hour bag), but it's also important that the cash is in small bills. You don't want to be out of luck just because some place can't break a $20.
• As far as food goes, I tend to lean more towards the powerbar/electrolyte gel side. No cooking or boiling water needed, which could be a good thing if you're on the move.
• Gear can be very dependent on your location... for example, here in Oregon, I want to be absolutely certain that I have a warm coat and rain gear. In other locations, sunscreen might be more important. (Grant, I'm pretty sure the warm coat and rain gear would be more useful in your case as well!)
• Other pieces of gear that I consider important (and some others have listed as well) include first aid kit, flashlight + spare battery, knife/MT, lighter or ferro rod, water purification filter and/or tablets, water bottle of some sort, and personal medications

[captain spaulding]

I do have a 24 hour go bag. I use the Rush 12 by 5.11. Technically it’s not a 24 hour bag but I have made it work as one. Longer actually. I’m going out to dinner with the lady right now so cannot get into specifics at the moment but if I find some time later I would love to share my setup. 

[sir_mike]

I too am not sure about the 24 hour bag idea.  I can also see the use for the 72 hour bag.

I guess if it is only a 24 hour deal and I know it depends on the exact circumstances but when I think of having to bug out for 24 hours I think well I could sleep in the car so have a blanket in there which we do.  I could stop and get a bottle or two of water somewhere and a snack/food of some sort since I am in my car AND in an urban/city environment.  So I guess I am not sure of this concept!  I guess it could be I just haven't thought much about a 24 hour concept much.  I am not sure!

Now if we go hiking, biking or something like that I take a small bag with some stuff in it like a fire/small first aid kit plus a sak, compass, multitool, tarp, and a couple other things for "just in case".  We always have water and a snack on us when hiking/biking so don't pack any other food.  This is more than enough because we are not in a big forest or really too far from a town so I think it is adequate carry without being overloaded.  That said if we do decide to go to a new place to hike or going for a long (lots of miles) for example, I might carry a bit more stuff with us to make sure we could and would have shelter, fire, etc. if needed.

[ironraven]

*sigh* Late to the party. Like always.

I've started to move away from various terms like Get Home Bag and Bug Out Bag, and my least favorite, the INCH Bag (a concept that I've despised for... well, since the moment I heard it). Instead I'm moving towards rating by hours. 24, 72, 120, etc. The "GHB" niche is basically for 24 hours. It is everything you need for where you are to where you need to be. Lets face it, almost none of us carry a full sized 72 hour bag in our car all the time unless we're off roading or in the middle of no where every day.

My EDC covers this niche pretty well. Climate appropriate clothes on me everyday. My on body EDC gives me tools and lights and comms/comp and cash, along with some things only a truely paranoid nutty prepper would have. Like a small, flat compass that needs some water to float on. I think we all agree on the basics of EDC- the only thing I suggest to everyone is add a piece of paper with phone numbers on it. No one remembers phone numbers any more, they're all in our widgets. Watch, again to back up the widget.

Next tier out is my bag. More tools, spare socks, water, a cup, 96 hours of my Rx meds. a couple of contractor bags, a space blanket, a small FAK, power supply for my widget, batteries, some duct tape, some paracord, work gloves, and a couple of chemical heat packs. I also have enough protein bars to make two meals out of. What I don't have is spare glasses. THat's enough to belly down for 24 hours with, but it's a little light for walking home if it will take more than 12 hours.

The maps go in my pocket along with the emergency cash ($2 cash/mile from home, and where I live is half way between work and my BOL) and real compass I keep in the car. Small fixed blade in my console, I'd grab that. Some more batteries. Extra protein bars and some carbo bars stashed there in case I need to use a lot of energey, along with water purification tablets. There is a blanket and tarp in there, and I can sling a bed roll made of those along with the extra paracord that I keep with it. I'm rarely more than a days walk from some place I can hunker down, so I don't need a lot of shelter. There is a pair of boots, work and wool gloves, a thermal layer, spare boonie hat, spare watch cap, and two pairs of socks in the car, and I'd grab whatever part of it seemed appropriate. That assumes I can't drive out. If I have to walk, I'm self contained for 24 hours other than air and water, I can build shelter, I can navigate, I can stay warm, I can purify water, and (hopefully) stay healthy for 24-36 hours. (Diabetes and bugging out gets all kinds of completed, even if you are on an oral-only regimine.) I'm good for a couple days if I go into a shelter.

Add food and water, this turns into an uncomfortable but survivable 72 hour bag. But I think that recent disasters has shown that the 72 hour bag, walking home, is not the likely scenario. The big things that a 72 hour bag need over a 24 hour built around an enhanced EDC are shelter, clothes, 30 days of any personal meds (if you can) and cash, and bigger/stronger tools. So, my question is, Grant, can you get home in a day's walk from work? Two days if you're willing to be hungry?

[Fortytwo]

I think we all agree on the basics of EDC- the only thing I suggest to everyone is add a piece of paper with phone numbers on it. No one remembers phone numbers any more, they're all in our widgets. Watch, again to back up the widget.

...

What I don't have is spare glasses. THat's enough to belly down for 24 hours with, but it's a little light for walking home if it will take more than 12 hours.

Shortened for clarity.

The phone numbers idea is a really good one, I tend to be all too reliant on my smartphone. As for the glasses I realised that I didn't have a backup and since I would be severely hampered (I'm at  -8.5 on both eyes with some astigmatism thrown in for good measure) I added a pair of contact lenses to my EDC kit. Not optimal but they should be able to last me a day before my eyes get to tired from them. Might not be a solution for everyone but they are a lot cheaper and less bulky than a second set of glasses would be.

[Syncop8r]

Keep the rule of 3 in mind.
You can survive:
3 minutes without air,
3 hours without shelter,
3 days without water,
3 weeks without food.

So... the bag needs some air first and foremost.   

[Fortytwo]

Keep the rule of 3 in mind.
You can survive:
3 minutes without air,
3 hours without shelter,
3 days without water,
3 weeks without food.

So... the bag needs some air first and foremost.   

Yup, the local ice skaters in particular are very keen on the air. The standard seems to be to use the bag from a box of wine. I would even argue that the point of packing a bag of air in your backpack is to minimize the risk of asphyxiation. 

[ironraven]

I added a pair of contact lenses to my EDC kit. Not optimal but they should be able to last me a day before my eyes get to tired from them. Might not be a solution for everyone but they are a lot cheaper and less bulky than a second set of glasses would be.

My glasses are impact rated, both the ANSI and DoD spec. If you use contacts, at least carry impact rated safety glasses in the car. Eye injuries are painful, scary, complicated, and easily and cheaply prevented.

My grandfather had a friend who had one eye. Everyone assumed it was an injury in WWII. After he died his widow explain that no, he'd been in the woods at night with a buddy hunting coons. Tree branch snapped back, and POKE! right in the eye.

Eye pro. It's cheap. It works. It helps preserve your peripheral vision.

[Etherealicer]

I think we all agree on the basics of EDC- the only thing I suggest to everyone is add a piece of paper with phone numbers on it. No one remembers phone numbers any more, they're all in our widgets. Watch, again to back up the widget.

...

What I don't have is spare glasses. THat's enough to belly down for 24 hours with, but it's a little light for walking home if it will take more than 12 hours.

Shortened for clarity.

The phone numbers idea is a really good one, I tend to be all too reliant on my smartphone. As for the glasses I realised that I didn't have a backup and since I would be severely hampered (I'm at  -8.5 on both eyes with some astigmatism thrown in for good measure) I added a pair of contact lenses to my EDC kit. Not optimal but they should be able to last me a day before my eyes get to tired from them. Might not be a solution for everyone but they are a lot cheaper and less bulky than a second set of glasses would be.

In a emergency, you could fashion some pinhole glasses (from newspaper, tape or whatever). As I have only a mild correction (-1.25/-1.75) I cannot say how well this would work for you, but as an added bonus, it also works as sunglasse

[raistlin65]

I think we all agree on the basics of EDC- the only thing I suggest to everyone is add a piece of paper with phone numbers on it. No one remembers phone numbers any more, they're all in our widgets. Watch, again to back up the widget.

...

What I don't have is spare glasses. THat's enough to belly down for 24 hours with, but it's a little light for walking home if it will take more than 12 hours.

Shortened for clarity.

The phone numbers idea is a really good one, I tend to be all too reliant on my smartphone. As for the glasses I realised that I didn't have a backup and since I would be severely hampered (I'm at  -8.5 on both eyes with some astigmatism thrown in for good measure) I added a pair of contact lenses to my EDC kit. Not optimal but they should be able to last me a day before my eyes get to tired from them. Might not be a solution for everyone but they are a lot cheaper and less bulky than a second set of glasses would be.

In a emergency, you could fashion some pinhole glasses (from newspaper, tape or whatever). As I have only a mild correction (-1.25/-1.75) I cannot say how well this would work for you, but as an added bonus, it also works as sunglasse

Another good strategy is to always save old prescription glasses. That old pair of glasses that just got upgraded works great as a backup in a BOB.

[Etherealicer]

First, what are we preparing for? Everything!

So of course the very first item should be: High visibility vest / personal light or such. The highest risk comes from a traffic accident, reducing the risk of getting run over should be top priority as about 99.9% of the dangers come from there. Choosing high visibility clothing instead of tactical camo will help avoid those
Its not just to avoid getting run over, if you are in the outdoors and have an accident, you want to be found.

A bit more serious... Food should be a top priority. 24/72h implies an emergency, so you want to be at your best. So I would also add a pack of gum and maybe a coffee/energy shot. Both help you be/stay alert.

[superpaco]

Wow gentlemen,
That was probably the best set of post and info I've seen in such a short series on the subject. A lot of good information without very much fat on it. I'll try and add my point of view on it and maybe there will be value to it.

I tend to look at gearing up as layers (got it from HPG and military) but also, it's all just tools to solve problems. What problems are you likely to need to solve? What level of comfort do you need to maintain? Some things are universal: flashlight, fire, knife, container, first-aid. Some things are special: prescription glasses/meds, maps, clothing. And then there are the things people are like to forget until they need them: spare charger, non-prescription meds, gloves, tp/paper towels.

There is nothing like a dry-run to get your head on straight as what you personally do and don't need for your well-being. A couple good ones are to turn off the power, sleep in your car, and/or walk more than 5 miles. You gotta know how you react and figure out what you need.

I will concretely say; as far as bag choice goes, you want to have you kit at least 3/4 dialed before you can make a really good decision about what is going to work best for it.  I personally use a HPG Highlander with several smaller bags and sacks and such for organization. One as a junk drawer, one for FAK, one for food, etc. It took me a while to get to this point but I'm pretty comfy and I can usually find whatever I'm looking for.

I would consider this bag like a second layer. It not always with me but it's usually close. The only clothes are a hat and maybe a pair of socks (I expect to be dressed according to weather and locale). The only food is a couple snacks. But there is always a water bottle and a nesting cup, light and extra batteries, knife and sharpener, fire, not least of all a shemagh shaped piece of cloth.

Not my most lucid post, but I'll be glad to answer any questions.

[Grant Lamontagne]

The reason this thread is so informative with such little crap- the folks here are more about what works and a lot less about fancy brands or extra stuff you have to have because it's cool or a certain brand.  That's why I love this place.   

I will say, the glasses thing is something I had never considered.  I don't wear glasses so it isn't something I thought about, but it absolutely is worth considering for anyone who does.  So far, I am the only member of my family that doesn't wear them, and I imagine it is only a matter of time before I do.

Def

[superpaco]

Yeah, this forum really drove home that a lot of the intelligent people in the world see fit to carry a MT.

[Kev D]

I don't have a 24 hour go bag, never have had.

I live in the UK in an area that doesn't flood, no earthquakes or tornado's.  The coldest ever winter on record for my area was a few years ago and other than the outside tap pipe splitting, I had no issues (even though I geared up for the apocalypse according to my mother), and the worst snowfall since I was a kid was in 2010 and I still made it to work ok in my crappy little Peugeot, so we don't get much snow either

I grew up in the IRA terrorist era and don't think that's an issue for where I live either even with the current nutters terrorists out there.

I keep the appropriate things in my car for bad weather and breakdown and have upgraded to a 4x4 since the bad snow (for me anyway), and I believe I am fully geared up at home for all weathers, power cuts, etc that we have experienced or are likely to experience.

So I don't think I need a 24 hour go bag.

[Lynn LeFey]

Oh, boy... Well, now you guys get to see a full dose of my crazy.

Yes, I have a bag in my car. I consider it an 'emergency bag'. I don't like the 'x hour bag' label, because it's kind of nebulous, and really only applies to food, of which I carry none.

What's in my bag?

The bag itself is a 'High Sierra Cirque 30'. It has waist and sternum straps, and is red and gray. 30 liter cap.
Fauxton, on the grab handle.
Stainless Steel Water Bottle in the water bottle pouch right side, no name generic, approx 24 oz
Katadyn Micro filtering water bottle, pouch left side
'Deluxe Map Compass' from Walmart in the phone pocket on the shoulder strap.
8" zip ties, was 100, probably 60 left
waterproof matches, and cotton balls dipped in parafin in a ziplock bag.
SOL Heatsheets survival blanket for 2
cheap mylar survival blanket
20' duct tape
60ish feet of safety orange paracord. (used to be 100', used some)
30 ish feet of OD green paracord.
A few other bits of misc. cordage
Spare clothes: Fleece pullover XL, polo shirt L, 'pajama bottoms', pair of socks, underwear.
Smart Sense first aid kit, to which I added two 3" gauze pads, triple antibiotic ointment, bug spray, mole skin, and nitrile gloves
Cold Steel Bushman. Got it for my birthday as a sorta gag gift, but it is an insanely sturdy beater knife. Comes with ferro rod.
Hygiene kit: travel size toothbrush, toothpaste, body wash, shampoo, hand sanitizer, and dental floss
Spare glasses for me and my hubby.
Toilet paper in a ziplock bag, about half a roll
USB wall plug
Fork and spoon, stainless steel, ziptied together
And yet more cordage, bank line, probably 50' or so.
Bandana, white.
Dice, D&D style.
Small Radio. County Comm GP-4L. Batteries not stored in it. Runs on 2 AA, stored in a pouch with it.
Combo Compass, Whistle, thermometer, magnifying glass. Don't even remember where I got it, because i didn't buy it.
Flashlight, Ultrafire $3 cheapo, runs on AA.
Chlor-floc water treatment sachettes, about 10
ear plugs, foam, 6
spare AA battery
cash, currently $20
Sharpie Marker
Lighter, generic gas station version
Solar rechargeable battery, 6000mAh, 'Levin' brand. for emergency cell phone charging. also has LED light.
2 cheap plastic ponchos
2 heavy duty contractor bags

And the burning question of my multitool...

I carry 2 in the bag:
Leatherman Rebar
Victorinox Rucksack

There are other things in the car that would get grabbed should I need to leave it. Sunscreen, work gloves, safety vest, Charger cable for the iphones, etc.

If it seems like some stuff is missing, I carry a lot of dumb things with me in my bag.

[Aloha]

When I first began to look at videos of these bags I was always surprised there were so many names to them.  I dont have a bag I carry with me or in my vehicle.  I tried to assemble one just to see what it would look like.  I ended up with a massive amount of stuff that really didn't address what I would be needing.  As I began to really think about this bag, these bags in general, a few thoughts came to mind.  If I were in a situation where I lost the use of my vehicle what then?  This "get home bag" would need to assist me doing what?  I am not often so far from home that I couldn't reasonably walk home.  Water, a snack, and some simple items and I'd be good to go.  No bolt cutters for me or camp stove in that scenario. 

Now when I began to think about a bag that I would grab and go from home that was easier to assemble.  Basically I asked myself a few questions.  Why am I leaving?  How would I be leaving?  Where am I going?  Is safety a concern?   There are other questions I asked but this is where I started.

Emergency evacuation would be the main reason I needed to leave my home.  In that scenario I would leave my auto.  Because I would leave by auto I could reasonably bring more items than if I had to leave by foot or human power.   Why not leave certain items in your vehicle then?  Why not leave all your items in your vehicle?  For me the answer is space. Its not comfortable to have those items live full time in my vehicle.  I do keep water and some foods in my vehicle at all times tho. 

My evacuation bag is a bag with a weeks worth of items as if I were to go on a weeks camping trip.  Clothing, toiletries, a few tools ( edc items ), and our ever present electronics and their accessories.  Beyond that I do have items that are more related to a week of tent camping.  Beyond that, I have equipment/tools/accessories that could help in whatever destination I found myself in.  Parking lot, park, emergency shelter, side street, friends home, campground, etc.   

I have my bag easily accessible as well as the other items very easily ready to load into my vehicle.  In the event I had to evacuate I could camp in a park for a week or live in my vehicle for a week. I have the needed clothing, toiletries, basic tools and accessories, plus foods and water with cooking capabilities, and shelter. 

           

[raistlin65]

Oh, boy... Well, now you guys get to see a full dose of my crazy.

Not crazy. I'm sure I have as much stuff 

But seriously. I have good homeowners insurance in case the house catches on fire, not because I think it will.  Even if the odds are half a million to one of me ever using it, still makes sense to me to have some gear in the car just in case. 

[lister]

Oh, boy... Well, now you guys get to see a full dose of my crazy.

Not crazy. I'm sure I have as much stuff 

But seriously. I have good homeowners insurance in case the house catches on fire, not because I think it will.  Even if the odds are half a million to one of me ever using it, still makes sense to me to have some gear in the car just in case. 

Take a good look around. This place is basically filled with people with crazy amount of gear in their pants, bags, backpacks, vehicles... Its basically what MTO is all about! 

 

[Lynn LeFey]

Take a good look around. This place is basically filled with people with crazy amount of gear in their pants, bags, backpacks, vehicles... Its basically what MTO is all about! 

 

I think this is 100% true. what was I thinking? Nice to be in the right place.

[Steinar]

Dry socks, toilet paper if in the wilderness, credit card if in civilization. Half joking, but for 24h those are the essential necessities. 

[Grathr]

I sort of have a 24/72 hour bag in my work car. In back of my van I have long old army storage box.
In it I have a small backpack, a couple of water bottles, a wool rescue blanket, a large axe, a small hatchet, a brick hammer, a steel wedge, a bowsaw a god lengt of 7mm rope, a coil of thick hemp rope, a knife, a poncho, a hexamine tablet stove, a metal drinking/ heating cup, a pack of high calorie crackers, a small can of hig calorie food that can be eaten cold, light sticks, a flaglight with batteries, matches, a lighter, a ferro rod, a compass and a first aid kit.

If a situation where I need to leave the car should arise (unlikely) , or I just deside to go camping (more likely)  I grab whatever  I think Ill need given the cirkunstances and put it in the backpack.

I figure the most likely scenario Ill encouter is a situation where Ill need the tools to clear the road (has happened to me already)  or assist at a road accident or something like that.

[Nix]

We live in an area where we might need to "bug out" in the case of wild fire. We have other hazards too: winter storms, wind storms, and earthquakes. The later don't require "bugging out" though. So our "plan" is to have a bag ready in case we need to run for safety at 2:00 in the morning because of a fire. Most everything else is a "bugging in" situation.

So, with that in mind, we each put together a bug out bag. I wanted a bag that didn't look very "tactical" and had more of a "grey man" approach. Here's the bag, packed and ready to roll:



The bag presupposes that we're wearing clothes and boots.

It's organized with the idea we might be away from the house for a week or so, and that the journey to safety might be chaotic and confusing. The outer pocket holds a small first-aid kit and a toiletry bag. It's also got the usual flashlights, pens, notebook, Leatherman, SAK (Fieldmaster), and fire kit. Cleaning wipes feature prominently.

The top pocket has some comfort items like tissues, clean wipes, chapstick, as well as a headlamp and compass--stuff you may want at an instant and needs to be easy to get to. An envelope with a little cash sits in the top pocket as well. One side pocket holds water, water filter, water purification tabs, and two lexan mugs. The other side pocket holds snacks, tea, and a fixed blade knife.

The main pocket holds a little extra clothing and a g'tex jacket. A pair of work gloves and a wool cap, too. At this time of year the emphasis is on warm layers.

Anticipating doing some laundry, there are some packets of detergent. There's some paracord--'cuz that's always handy. I also included a small flexible cutting board for food prep. And a small isobutane stove for heating water. I've found that in times of crisis, a warm sweater, a cup of tea, and a candy bar go a long way toward restoring one's morale and resolve.

There is also a small bag with charging cords and adapters for electronic stuff.

You might think that a 50-liter bag is a bit big, but I've found that it gets filled mighty quickly. There is extra room in the bag, partially with a view to being able to throw a couple extra things in, time permitting. The load gets revised depending on the season. The challenge is keeping it light. There's always the chance the bug out could end up on foot for some distance. For that reason, too, a proper back-pack makes sense to me.

[Poncho65]

Lot of great info in here I have read this thread as it has progressed but just haven't had any input as you people have had Lot of great ideas as well