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My musings on the lack of grammar nazis

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us Offline El Corkscrew

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #270 on: November 17, 2017, 11:28:00 PM
It's really awlful
“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain


gr Offline kkokkolis

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #271 on: November 18, 2017, 12:02:23 AM
Awlright then, it’s both. That seems abnormawl but this site’s qualities are abysmawl. Actuawlly, the fact that we do here what we do, is awlarming. This awlchemy of unrestricted freedom to do as we wish, while this place manages to be kept awlive, denies the hypothetical need of laws, awlgorithms, rules and such restricting tools. In this context, it’s not surprising that our awliteracies come unpunished. For me, this is an utopian awllegory, I wish I could be able to find in reawl life. Awllow me to say that I love you awl. With you, I never feel awlone!
Awloha!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 12:03:33 AM by kkokkolis »


nz Offline zoidberg

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #272 on: November 18, 2017, 06:39:54 AM
Long week huh.   ;)   :)


fi Offline AlephZero

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #273 on: November 18, 2017, 07:23:16 AM
"Hoarder of weirdness,
Always posting random things,
I'm AlephZero" :ninja:


gr Offline kkokkolis

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #274 on: November 18, 2017, 09:18:08 AM
Awlways.


us Offline redmond

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #275 on: November 18, 2017, 10:06:47 PM
And remember: y'awl is singular. Awl y'awl is plural.
Greg
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #276 on: November 18, 2017, 10:09:42 PM
Look, the rednecks tewching us how to spell.  ::) :P
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!


ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #277 on: November 19, 2017, 11:27:58 AM
And remember: y'awl is singular. Awl y'awl is plural.
I was wondering about that :rofl:
It wouldn't be the internet without people complaining.


us Offline Aloha

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #278 on: November 19, 2017, 03:32:47 PM
And remember: y'awl is singular. Awl y'awl is plural.
I was wondering about that :rofl:

 :rofl:

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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #279 on: November 19, 2017, 03:37:16 PM
"You can call me Awl'".
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!


gr Offline kkokkolis

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #280 on: November 20, 2017, 03:13:31 PM
Two more:


1st: It is Dominoes or Dominos?

This isn't the same as Dice and Dices  :twak: , I really see it written both ways. I'm not sure which is US and which UK.


2nd: The Great Slade songs (partial list)

Auld Lang Syne (That's traditional, but what does it mean?  ??? )
Boyz (Instrumental)
Cheap 'n' Nasty Luv
Coz I Luv You
Cum On Feel the Noize
I Won't Let It 'Appen Agen
I'm Mee, I'm Now, an' That's Orl
Kill 'Em at the Hot Club Tonite
Lemme Love into Ya
Look at Last Nite
Look Wot You Dun
Mama Weer All Crazee Now
Myzsterious Mizster Jones
Skweeze Me, Pleeze Me
Take Me Bak 'Ome
The Whole World's Goin' Crazee
You Boyz Make Big Noize
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 03:19:40 PM by kkokkolis »


il Offline pomsbz

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #281 on: November 20, 2017, 04:07:37 PM
'Dominoes' from this Englishman. I'm not sure I've ever seen it spelt the other way.
"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson


us Offline El Corkscrew

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #282 on: November 20, 2017, 05:05:28 PM
Yeah, dominoes on both sides of the pond, far as I know... unless we're talking PIZZA PARTY!!!
dominos!.jpg
* dominos!.jpg (Filesize: 50.14 KB)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 05:06:30 PM by El Corkscrew »
“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain


gr Offline kkokkolis

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #283 on: November 20, 2017, 05:30:51 PM
I solved that one. Dominos is the plural of Domino in French!

Domino's Pizza is genitive (second) case, not plural. But in internet addresses it looks like Dominos because they don't use apostrophe there.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 05:34:01 PM by kkokkolis »


us Offline raistlin65

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #284 on: November 20, 2017, 05:43:02 PM
I solved that one. Dominos is the plural of Domino in French!

Domino's Pizza is genitive (second) case, not plural. But in internet addresses it looks like Dominos because they don't use apostrophe there.

In the US, normal usage is to call that possessive case. Probably wouldn't hear the term genitive case in analyzing English unless studying linguistics. Not saying it's incorrect to call it genitive. Just not used.


gr Offline kkokkolis

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #285 on: November 20, 2017, 05:46:43 PM
Genitive (γενική) is how we call it i my country, since ancient times. But I found it it in English speaking Wikipedia also.


us Offline El Corkscrew

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #286 on: November 20, 2017, 06:03:40 PM
Genitive (γενική) is how we call it i my country, since ancient times. But I found it it in English speaking Wikipedia also.

Yeah, i didn't call it genitive until i learned German, we're taught possessive case
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nl Offline Ron Who

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #287 on: November 20, 2017, 06:46:59 PM
In Latin it´s called genitivus.

Leave it to the Americans to be incompatible with the rest of the world (inches, ounces, fahrenheit). It´s The American Way.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 06:52:37 PM by Ronald Schröder »


fi Offline AlephZero

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #288 on: November 20, 2017, 07:32:32 PM
Oh it's German, how cute, with all their Genitives an such...

Here's something about the 15 cases of Finnish language...  >:D

Grammatical cases

The grammatical cases perform important grammatical functions.

Nominative
    The basic form of the noun
    Characteristic ending: none in the singular
    'talo' = 'a/the house'
    'kirja' = 'book'
    'mäki' = 'hill'
    'vesi' = 'water'

Genitive
    Characteristic ending: -n possibly modified by consonant gradation: mäki → mäen, talo → talon. For the nouns and adjectives that have two vowel stems, the weak vowel stem comes from the genitive singular.
    The genitive indicates possession. It is also used preceding postpositions. However, it is homophonous (but not cognate) to the accusative, which may cause some confusion.
    "kirja|n kuvat" = "the pictures in the book"
    "talo|n seinät" = "the walls of the house"
    "mäe|n päällä" = "on top of the hill"
    "vede|n alla" = "under water"

    Finnish also uses possessive affixes together with the genitive case
    "häne|n talo|nsa" = "her/his house(s)"

Accusative
    This case marks direct objects. The accusative indicates telicity; that is, the object has been finalized or the intended action is done. Note that a morphologically distinct accusative case exists in Finnish only for the following pronouns:

    Singular

        minut = me
        sinut = you
        Teidät = you (polite)
        hänet = him/her

    Plural

        meidät = us
        teidät = you
        heidät = them

    Question

        kenet = whom

In contrast, regular nouns do not have a distinct accusative case. Instead, singular direct objects look like the genitive in direct address (Tuon maton "I'll bring the carpet") and in the nominative with both imperatives (Tuo matto! "Bring the carpet!") and passives (Matto on tuotu "The carpet has been brought"). Plural direct objects always appear in the nominative plural.

Traditionally, Finnish grammars have considered, on syntactic grounds, the accusative to be a case unto itself, despite its being identical to the nominative or genitive case. The recently published major Finnish grammar, Iso suomen kielioppi, takes a morphological point of view and does not list the accusative except for the personal pronouns and kuka, while at the same time acknowledging the argument for the traditional view. The existence or nonexistence of an accusative case in Finnish thus depends on one's point of view. Historically, the similarity of the accusative and genitive endings is coincidental. The older accusative ending was -m, but in modern Finnish an m has become an n when it is the last sound of a word.

Partitive
    Characteristic ending: -ta/-tä, where the 't' elides if intervocalic. The consonant stem of a noun (if any) comes from the partitive singular. Otherwise the ending is added to the strong vowel stem.
    The basic meaning of this case is a lack of telicity, that is, it is not indicated whether the intended result has been achieved. For example, Join vettä "I drank water-part." indicates that there is possibly some water left, while the accusative Join veden indicates all water has been consumed. It is not perfectivity. The partitive is the second most common case in Finnish. It has also other uses:
    After numerals, except number 1:

        'kolme talo|a' = 'three houses'
        'kaksi las|ta' = 'two children'

    For incomplete actions and ongoing processes whose ending or end result is unknown (the partitive object):

        "luen kirja|a" = "I'm reading a book"
        "hän opetti minu|a lukemaan" = "s/he was teaching me to read"
        "rakastan sinu|a" = "I love you"
        "ajattelin huomis|ta" = "I thought about tomorrow"

    With nouns of indefinite number or substance nouns (the partitive object):

        "onko teillä kirjo|j|a?" = "do you have any books ?"
        "haluan vet|tä" = "I want some water"

    For negative statements and for tentative enquiries (the partitive object):

        "talossa ei ole yhtään kirjaa" = "there is not a book in the house"
        "en nähnyt hän|tä" = "I didn't see him/her"
        "saanko lainata kirjaa?" = "can I borrow the book?"

    With prepositions

        "ennen mäke|ä" = "before the hill"
        "ilman takki|a" = "without a coat"

    Very rarely indicates location (coming from/ being found somewhere):

        "rann|empa|a" = "closer to the shore"
        "länn|empä|ä" = "further west"

The formation of the partitive plural is rather variable, but the basic principle is to add '-i-' to the inflecting stem, followed by the '-(t)a' partitive ending. However, in a similar way to verb imperfects, the '-i-' can cause changes to the final vowel of the stem, leading to an apparent diversity of forms.

Locative cases
The most important function of the locative cases is to indicate location. They are also used for miscellaneous case government, much like prepositions in other languages. For example, the suffix -lla as a locative means "on top", but may function as an instrumental case, e.g. kirjoitan kynällä "I write with a pen".

Two different kinds of suffixes are used, the internal locatives (-s-) and the external locatives (-l-).

The word in a locative case refers to the verb, for example, in Sovitan housuja ikkunassa the word ikkunassa "in the window" refers to the verb sovitan "I try on", not to the adjacent noun housuja "pants". The sentence reads out as "I'm in the window, trying on pants". However, in context due to the instrumental nature of the window and the word order, the sentence stands for "I'm trying on pants (on display) in the window".

Internal locatives

Inessive
    Characteristic ending -ssa/-ssä added to the weak vowel stem
    The first of the six so-called "local" cases, which as their basic meaning correspond to locational prepositions in English. The inessive carries the basic meaning "inside" or "in"

        "talo|ssa" = "in the house"

    It is also commonplace to indicate time or immediate contact with the inessive

        "joulukuu|ssa" = "in December"
        "joulukuuse|ssa" = "on the Christmas tree"

Elative
    Characteristic ending -sta/-stä added to the weak vowel stem
    The second of the local cases, with the basic meaning of "coming out from inside" or "out of"

        "tuli talo|sta" = "(he) came out of the house"

    Like the inessive, the elative can also be used to indicate time or immediate contact. Can also indicate origin or cause.

        "viime joulu|sta lähtien" = "since last Christmas"
        "nouse sängy|stä" = "get out of the bed"
        "tehty villa|sta" = "made of wool"
        "vihreänä kateude|sta" = "green with envy"

Illative
    The ending is usually -Vn, where V indicates the preceding vowel of the stem. Singular forms use the strong stem form. In cases where the genitive stem already ends in a long vowel the ending is -seen (singular) and -siin (plural). However, for words of one syllable the ending is always -hVn and this form is also used in plural forms where the plural stem already contains a vowel (other than i ) immediately before the plural i.

    Some dialects, such as Pohjanmaa, use the -hVn more generally.

    This is the third of the local cases, with the basic meaning "into"

        "meni talo|on" = "(he) went into the house" - regular formation from talo -Vn
        "vete|en" = into the water" - regular formation from vesi, strong singular stem vete- -Vn
        "vesi|in" = into the waters" - regular formation from vesi, plural stem vesi- -Vn
        "kuu|hun" = "to the moon" - single syllable variation -hVn
        "Lontoo|seen" = "to London" - long vowel stem variation from Lontoo (London) -seen
        "kaunii|seen talo|on" ="into the beautiful house" -kaunis has singular stem -kaunii- therefore -seen variation
        "kaunii|siin taloi|hin" ="into the beautiful houses" - plural -siin because of singular -seen and plural -hVn due to the additional vowel i in the plural stem "taloi"

    The illative can also indicate close contact, time or cause

        "huomise|en" = "until tomorrow" (from huominen)
        "kevää|seen" = "until spring" (from kevät)
        "kylmä|än voi kuolla" = "one can die of cold"

External locatives

Adessive
    Characteristic ending -lla/-llä added to the weak vowel stem
    The fourth of the local cases, with the basic meaning 'on top of' or 'in close proximity of'

        "mäe|llä" = "on the hill"
        "ove|lla" = "at the door"

    Adessive is also commonly used with the verb 'olla' to indicate possession

        "minu|lla on kirja" = "I have a book"

    It can also indicate time, instrument, means or way

        "aamu|lla" = "in the morning"
        "bussi|lla" = "by bus"
        "vasara|lla" = "with a hammer"
        "kävellä varpa|i|lla|an" = "to walk on tiptoe/ on one's toes"

Ablative
    Characteristic ending -lta/-ltä added to the weak vowel stem
    The fifth of the local cases, with the basic meaning "from off of" - a poor English equivalent, but necessary to distinguish it from "from out of", which would be elative.

        "mäe|ltä" = "from (off) the hill"
        "nousin sohva|lta" = "(I) got up from the sofa"
        "Liisa sai kirjan minu|lta" = "Liisa got the book from me"

    The ablative can also indicate time and it can be used to convey information about qualities

        "kahdeksa|lta" = "at eight (o'clock)"
        "hän on ulkonäö|ltä|än miellyttävä" = (freely:)"she has a pleasant appearance"

Allative

    Characteristic ending -lle added to the weak vowel stem
    The sixth of the local cases, with the basic meaning "onto".

        "mäe|lle" = "onto the hill"

    Another meaning is "to someone" or "for someone"

        "minä annan kirjan Liisa|lle" = "I give the book to Liisa"
        "pöytä kahde|lle" = "a table for two"

    With verbs of sensation, it is possible to use either the ablative or allative case

        "tuoksuu hyvä|ltä/ hyvä|lle" = "(it) smells good"

"General locatives" and other cases

The name "general locatives" is sometimes used of the essive and translative cases (as well as partitive above) because their oldest meanings imply that they have been used to indicate location.

Essive
    Characteristic ending -na. If the noun or adjective has two vowel stems, the strong vowel stem comes from the essive singular. NB the consonant stem used to be quite common in the essive, and some nouns and adjectives still have this feature.
    This case sometimes carries the meaning of a temporary state of being, often equivalent to the English "as a ..."

        "lapse|na" = "as a child", "when (I) was a child"
        "vete|nä" = "as water"
        "pien|i|nä palas|i|na" = "in small pieces"
        "se on täyn|nä" = "it is full"

    The essive is also used for the time when something takes place, but only in calendar time, not clock time:

        "huomen|na" = "tomorrow"
        "maanantai|na" = "on Monday"
        "kuudente|na joulukuuta" = "on the 6th of December" (Finnish independence day).
        "tä|nä vuon|na" = "this year"

    In ancient Finnish, essive had a locative sense, which can still be seen in some words, one special case being words expressing comparative location:

        "koto|na" = "at home" (koto being an archaic form of koti, still current in some dialects)
        "ulko|na" = "outside; out of doors"
        "taka|na" = "behind (something)"
        "läh|empä|nä" = "nearer"
        "rann|empa|na" = "closer to the shore"
        "länn|empä|nä" = "further west"

Translative
    Characteristic ending -ksi added to the weak vowel stem. The ending is -kse- before a possessive suffix.
    This is the counterpart of the essive, with the basic meaning of a change of state. Examples:

        "maalaa se punaise|ksi" = "paint it red"
        "tunnen itseni väsynee|ksi" = "I feel tired".
        "se muuttui vede|ksi" = "it turned into water"

    Also has a meaning similar to English "for a ..."

        "mäki on englanni|ksi 'hill'" = (literally:) "'hill' is English for mäki"
        "toistaise|ksi" = "for the time being", "for now"
        "suunnitelmia perjantai|ksi" = "plans for Friday"
        "valmis perjantai|ksi" = "ready by Friday"
        "mitä sinä teet työ|kse|si?" = "what do you do for a living?"

    Rarely indicates location (going somewhere):

        "läh|emmä|ksi" = "(moving) nearer to"
        "rann|emma|ksi" = "closer to the shore"
        "länn|emmä|ksi" = "further west"

Instructive
    Characteristic ending -n added usually (but not always) to plural stem
    This has the basic meaning of "by means of". It is a comparatively rarely used case, mostly used in fixed expressions and with a very few exceptions always in the plural.

        "omi|n silmi|n" = "with (my) own eyes"
        "käsi|n" = "by hand"
        "jalokivi|n koristeltu" = "decorated with jewels"
        "rinta rinna|n = "side by side"
        "jala|n" = "by foot"

    It is also used with verbal second infinitives to mean "by ...ing", for example

        "lentäen" = "by flying", "by air"

Abessive
    Characteristic ending -tta
    This has the basic meaning of "without". This case is a rarely used by itself, especially in the spoken language, but is found in some expressions and proverbs.

        "joka kuri|tta kasvaa, se kunnia|tta kuolee" = "who grows up without discipline, dies without honor"

    However, abessive is quite common in combination with the third infinitive (-ma-, -mä-).

        "syömättä" = "without eating"
        "tekemättä" = "without doing"
        "... lukuun ottamatta" = "without taking into account..."

Comitative
    Characteristic ending -ine (plus a possessive suffix for nouns but none for adjectives). This ending is added to the plural stem, even if the noun is singular, which may cause ambiguity.
    This is a rarely used case, especially in the spoken language. The meaning is "in the company of" or "together with"

        "talo kirjo|ine|en" = "the house with its books" or "book"
        "hän saapui kauni|ine vaimo|ine|en" = "he arrived together with his beautiful wife" or "wives"




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« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 07:34:58 PM by Aleph78 »
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nl Offline Ron Who

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #289 on: November 20, 2017, 07:51:40 PM
Are there many illiterate people in Finland? In The Netherlands, an estimated 20 percent of the people (mostly elderly) have trouble reading and writing.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 07:54:06 PM by Ronald Schröder »


fi Offline AlephZero

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #290 on: November 20, 2017, 07:53:23 PM
Are there many illiterate people in Finland?

Not really, basicly 100% literacy rate, why?  :pok:

 :D
"Hoarder of weirdness,
Always posting random things,
I'm AlephZero" :ninja:


nl Offline Ron Who

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #291 on: November 20, 2017, 07:55:20 PM
Are there many illiterate people in Finland?

Not really, basicly 100% literacy rate, why?  :pok:

 :D

Just wondering whether illiteracy and complexity of the grammar are related.


00 Offline Dutch_Tooler

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #292 on: November 20, 2017, 07:56:31 PM
Wow... thanks for the treatise. I'm impressed. It strikes me that most languages I know have gone to great lengths to lose cases over time, with Latin as reference. But then again Finnish does not originate from Latin... were there never any attempts at simplifying the grammar?

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Dutch_Tooler

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us Offline raistlin65

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #293 on: November 20, 2017, 08:00:09 PM
Genitive (γενική) is how we call it i my country, since ancient times. But I found it it in English speaking Wikipedia also.

No doubt it's in Wikipedia. However, no one is taught the term in the US as part of learning English. For example, here is the Purdue University OWL's page (great grammar resource) on pronoun case:
https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/595/02/  Only says possessive case.

Here is information over at Grammar Girl about how the name change from genitive to possessive came about in the 18th century:
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/possessives


nl Offline Ron Who

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #294 on: November 20, 2017, 08:09:02 PM
Aha! It was the British who did the renaming! And when they crossed the pond, the new grammar went with them.


gr Offline kkokkolis

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #295 on: November 20, 2017, 08:26:37 PM
Finnish sound to me like a mix of Turkish (you even have a Turku there), general Scandinavian a little bit of something else (some Baltic language or Russian?).


In Greek, a variety of genitive is called "genitive possessive".


There are other varieties, such us "abstract", "original", "divisional", of "creator", "time", "locality", "cause", "matter", "content", "difference" (comparative), "property", "worth", "purpose", "objective", "subjective", "peremptory".


I could learn bones and nerves easier, that's why I became a doctor. My wife teaches that though.

Modern Greek (Demotic) is a simplified version of Byzantine Greek, which were a simplified version of Koene, with foreign influences from East and West. For 150 years Greeks were bilinguals, speaking Demotic at home and on the street and Katharevousa at academic, official and formal settings. Katharevousa was a modern adaptation of Ancient Greek (Attic and Koene) with Demotic. It was a PITA to learn proper Kathareousa and be bilingual in your own country (like when Italians had to speak Italian and Latin in a similar manner). Iliteracy fell considerably after Katharevousa was dropped, starting after 1976.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 08:37:45 PM by kkokkolis »


fi Offline AlephZero

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #296 on: November 20, 2017, 08:38:10 PM
Finnish sound to me like a mix of Turkish (you even have a Turku there), general Scandinavian a little bit of something else (some Baltic language or Russian?).


In Greek, a variety of genitive is called "genitive possessive".


There are other varieties, such us "abstract", "original", "divisional", of "creator", "time", "locality", "cause", "matter", "content", "difference" (comparative), "property", "worth", "purpose", "objective", "subjective", "peremptory".


I could learn bones and nerves easier, that's why I became a doctor. My wife teaches that though.

Nope, not Turkish, Finnic and in a broader sense, Fenno-Ugric  :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnic_languages

Finnish, Estonian, Karelian, Livonian, Ingrian, Votic, Veps, and lot of small languages around area, also Sami is related
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 08:42:05 PM by Aleph78 »
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gr Offline kkokkolis

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #297 on: November 20, 2017, 08:42:16 PM
That's the Uralic branch. Turkish come from the Altaic branch of the same protolanguage: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ural%E2%80%93Altaic_languages


fi Offline AlephZero

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #298 on: November 20, 2017, 08:50:51 PM
There are some Turkish loan words left from the wars where Carolus Rex took finnish troops with him all the way against the Ottomans, hence the word "Kalabaliikki" in even current Finnish, which came from "Kalabalik of Bender" as in "In Turkish the word for "crowd" or "tumult" is kalabalık, which after the incident has become a Swedish and Finnish loanword, kalabalik, with the meaning "confusion" or "great disorder"."
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nl Offline Ron Who

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Re: My musings on the lack of grammar nazis
Reply #299 on: November 20, 2017, 08:55:58 PM
There are some Turkish loan words left from the wars where Carolus Rex took finnish troops with him all the way against the Ottomans, hence the word "Kalabaliikki" in even current Finnish, which came from "Kalabalik of Bender" as in "In Turkish the word for "crowd" or "tumult" is kalabalık, which after the incident has become a Swedish and Finnish loanword, kalabalik, with the meaning "confusion" or "great disorder"."

In Dutch, the word is kabaal.


 

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