[Toys for Boys] Sidesword & Dagger

[Etherealicer]

To begin with, I would like to say, that the first of our club made it into the HEMA world ranking (around #250 and #4 in Switzerland. The #1 from Switzerland is ranked around #35 in the world). I'm a bit too old to start with tournament fighting, so no ranking for me. Although considering the age of the most famous HEMA fighter, I might have to re-consider. Can you guess who that is?

Show content

Its Arnold "Conan" Schwarzenegger
Supposedly, he is very good (the #1 from Switzerland was lucky enough to get a longsword bout against him).

Arnold Fencing Classic

Anyway, we decided to widen our training and include the Sidesword. While the theory behind the moves is pretty much the same, the execution is quite different, due to a different posture. We are hoping to improve our sideways movement by this.
The sidesword is sooo pretty

[Etherealicer]

And with the big brother, the longsword.

[Don Pablo]

The longsword is probably too heavy for me to lift swing around. 

Those side sword handles are real pretty.

[Etherealicer]

The longsword is probably too heavy for me to lift swing around. 

Those side sword handles are real pretty.

The longsword is merely 1.3kg, the sidesword feels a lot heavier as it is one handed...

[Ron Who]

I used to train with a katana. That´s over 30 years ago though. A katana is a two handed sword, but not too heavy so it´s possible to wield two of them.

[Etherealicer]

I used to train with a katana. That´s over 30 years ago though. A katana is a two handed sword, but not too heavy so it´s possible to wield two of them.

Katana should roughly weigh about the same as a Longsword, however the katana is a bit shorter and has the center of balance a bit more foreward.
The longsword can be wielded one handed too (often with a buckler / dagger or shield), but you loose a lot speed/accuracy. Also the power to penetrate armor.

Here from a fencing manual (Talhoffer’s 1459 treatise), longsword with a judicary shield. Notice how the left guy has the pointer over the cross-guard? That increases control when using a one-handed sword. You can see the sidesword has a double cross-guard to protect the finger and later the rapier got a ring for that.


And here you can see it in action:
Its rather clumsy

[Don Pablo]

I used to train with a katana. That´s over 30 years ago though. A katana is a two handed sword, but not too heavy so it´s possible to wield two of them.

Katana should roughly weigh about the same as a Longsword, however the katana is a bit shorter and has the center of balance a bit more foreward.
The longsword can be wielded one handed too (often with a buckler / dagger or shield), but you loose a lot speed/accuracy. Also the power to penetrate armor.

Here from a fencing manual (Talhoffer’s 1459 treatise), longsword with a judicary shield. Notice how the left guy has the pointer over the cross-guard? That increases control when using a one-handed sword. You can see the sidesword has a double cross-guard to protect the finger and later the rapier got a ring for that.
(Image removed from quote.)

And here you can see it in action:
Its rather clumsy

It kind of looks like they are using Cellos as shields.

[Etherealicer]

I used to train with a katana. That´s over 30 years ago though. A katana is a two handed sword, but not too heavy so it´s possible to wield two of them.

Katana should roughly weigh about the same as a Longsword, however the katana is a bit shorter and has the center of balance a bit more foreward.
The longsword can be wielded one handed too (often with a buckler / dagger or shield), but you loose a lot speed/accuracy. Also the power to penetrate armor.

Here from a fencing manual (Talhoffer’s 1459 treatise), longsword with a judicary shield. Notice how the left guy has the pointer over the cross-guard? That increases control when using a one-handed sword. You can see the sidesword has a double cross-guard to protect the finger and later the rapier got a ring for that.
(Image removed from quote.)

And here you can see it in action:
Its rather clumsy

It kind of looks like they are using Cellos as shields.

makes me wanna play cello
These shields are often used two handed, like a cello. Well, slightly different grip...

[Chako]

Those look cool. I once wanted to learn how to use them and join a club...but there weren't any anywhere near where I lived. That didn't stop me from collecting swords however. Because of this, I never did get the training blades for my Hanwei Tinker swords.

Here is an old link of some of my swords. I have a few more added since then that aren't listed.

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,33487.msg544528.html#msg544528

[Etherealicer]

Those look cool. I once wanted to learn how to use them and join a club...but there weren't any anywhere near where I lived. That didn't stop me from collecting swords however. Because of this, I never did get the training blades for my Hanwei Tinker swords.

Here is an old link of some of my swords. I have a few more added since then that aren't listed.

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,33487.msg544528.html#msg544528

Should you ever get around to buy training swords, stay away from Hanwei. Mine had a bent after the first evening of training and it did not last half a year. We had three in our club, none of them made it over a year.
In comparison, I train with my current blade (Viktor Berbekucz) for over 2 years now, and it is still holding up nicely. In fact, all the other training-swords we had outlived the Hanwei by a long run. And they are not significantly more expensive.

[Chako]

Thanks for the excellent info. I went with the Tinker Pierce designs because I like how the blades swapped out. I ordered the sharp ones with the idea of maybe upgrading to a training blade...but alas...no clubs anywhere near my abode.

[Etherealicer]

Thanks for the excellent info. I went with the Tinker Pierce designs because I like how the blades swapped out. I ordered the sharp ones with the idea of maybe upgrading to a training blade...but alas...no clubs anywhere near my abode.

At first we thought that we would have to replace only the blade when it breaks. One from my club has also a set... Sharp blade, feather and indoor exercise blade.
Turned out there are several problems with this.
- You need to move the handle. Since you want your handle to be secure you put the sword in a vice and use both hands to tighten the pommel and finally secure it with a counter-screw. Which in reality meant the handle stayed on the feather and the other two blades were unused. Here is an additional problem with the Hanwei feather. With Hanwei, the pommel has no thread and the attachment is only with the screw (no counter screw). So, it comes loose a lot quicker (To my best knowledge, they still do it like this). Adding to that, these are the worst screws ever. the hex-drive is stamped in what appears to be very soft material and after applying some force it was worn out (I will post pictures later).
- The handle suffers in training. If you look at hockey sticks you know what happens... same problem here. And you want a nice handle with the nice blade...
In the end my friend ordered two more handles, after all they are the cheap part of the sword (cost around 30-40$).

There is nothing wrong with Hanwei products. Back when I bought my first feather they were the only budget options. Other feathers were running at 400+$ (e.g. Albion), while the Hanwei was below 200$. There were also some independent smith that made feathers but they lacked the experience to make consistent quality. So a Hanwei blade was a sensible choice for a starter, especially if you don't know if you will keep it up.
In the recent past, HEMA has increased in popularity, among other things because it got official recognition as a sport, meaning no special insurance is needed. Switzerland alone has 19 HEMA fencing clubs. So with the increased demand for HEMA sparring weapons, some of those smith have started to specialize and now produce weapons of excellent quality at affordable prices (around 200$). Ultimately, this means that you can bet a better product for less money and there is really no reason to buy a Hanwei anymore.

[Gareth]

I used to train with a katana. That´s over 30 years ago though. A katana is a two handed sword, but not too heavy so it´s possible to wield two of them.

Katana should roughly weigh about the same as a Longsword, however the katana is a bit shorter and has the center of balance a bit more foreward.
The longsword can be wielded one handed too (often with a buckler / dagger or shield), but you loose a lot speed/accuracy. Also the power to penetrate armor.

Here from a fencing manual (Talhoffer’s 1459 treatise), longsword with a judicary shield. Notice how the left guy has the pointer over the cross-guard? That increases control when using a one-handed sword. You can see the sidesword has a double cross-guard to protect the finger and later the rapier got a ring for that.
(Image removed from quote.)

And here you can see it in action:
Its rather clumsy

Those are two of my old sparing buddies; Paul Macdonald and Bob Brooks.  Paul and I did a lot of work on these when he first made some nearly twenty years ago.  There is a decent chance we were the first two to use them in around 500 years...because they are indeed silly.   Fun though.

[Etherealicer]

I used to train with a katana. That´s over 30 years ago though. A katana is a two handed sword, but not too heavy so it´s possible to wield two of them.

Katana should roughly weigh about the same as a Longsword, however the katana is a bit shorter and has the center of balance a bit more foreward.
The longsword can be wielded one handed too (often with a buckler / dagger or shield), but you loose a lot speed/accuracy. Also the power to penetrate armor.

Here from a fencing manual (Talhoffer’s 1459 treatise), longsword with a judicary shield. Notice how the left guy has the pointer over the cross-guard? That increases control when using a one-handed sword. You can see the sidesword has a double cross-guard to protect the finger and later the rapier got a ring for that.
(Image removed from quote.)

And here you can see it in action:
Its rather clumsy

Those are two of my old sparing buddies; Paul Macdonald and Bob Brooks.  Paul and I did a lot of work on these when he first made some nearly twenty years ago.  There is a decent chance we were the first two to use them in around 500 years...because they are indeed silly.   Fun though.

That is all I can say... you still train/spar?

[Gareth]

I used to train with a katana. That´s over 30 years ago though. A katana is a two handed sword, but not too heavy so it´s possible to wield two of them.

Katana should roughly weigh about the same as a Longsword, however the katana is a bit shorter and has the center of balance a bit more foreward.
The longsword can be wielded one handed too (often with a buckler / dagger or shield), but you loose a lot speed/accuracy. Also the power to penetrate armor.

Here from a fencing manual (Talhoffer’s 1459 treatise), longsword with a judicary shield. Notice how the left guy has the pointer over the cross-guard? That increases control when using a one-handed sword. You can see the sidesword has a double cross-guard to protect the finger and later the rapier got a ring for that.
(Image removed from quote.)

And here you can see it in action:
Its rather clumsy

Those are two of my old sparing buddies; Paul Macdonald and Bob Brooks.  Paul and I did a lot of work on these when he first made some nearly twenty years ago.  There is a decent chance we were the first two to use them in around 500 years...because they are indeed silly.   Fun though.

That is all I can say... you still train/spar?

No, not any more.  I'd gotten very involved in teaching and running my old club and kind of burnt myself out a bit.  About 7 years ago I took a step back and went on a break and never quite felt the need to do that to myself again.  One house move later and even if I wanted to there's no clubs anywhere nearby.  I've still got my kit though and I'm still friends with a load of people who are very much involved. 

[Etherealicer]

No, not any more.  I'd gotten very involved in teaching and running my old club and kind of burnt myself out a bit.  About 7 years ago I took a step back and went on a break and never quite felt the need to do that to myself again.  One house move later and even if I wanted to there's no clubs anywhere nearby.  I've still got my kit though and I'm still friends with a load of people who are very much involved. 

Now I feel like a newb

We started about 4 years ago (stiff blade and medieval gear/helmet), then had a small incident. One got a tine cut on the upper lip , so we decided we either stop or get better gear. So, we founded a club and got better gear. Fortunately for us, it shortly after also got recognized as sport by the Swiss government.

[styx]

Nice swords. How hard is HEMA to pick up for a complete novice in general?

[Gareth]

No, not any more.  I'd gotten very involved in teaching and running my old club and kind of burnt myself out a bit.  About 7 years ago I took a step back and went on a break and never quite felt the need to do that to myself again.  One house move later and even if I wanted to there's no clubs anywhere nearby.  I've still got my kit though and I'm still friends with a load of people who are very much involved. 

Now I feel like a newb

We started about 4 years ago (stiff blade and medieval gear/helmet), then had a small incident. One got a tine cut on the upper lip , so we decided we either stop or get better gear. So, we founded a club and got better gear. Fortunately for us, it shortly after also got recognized as sport by the Swiss government.

I hate to say it but I started sport fencing when I was 16 and got interested in the more historical when I was 18 (in 1993) and was one of the very early members of the Dawn Duellists Society.  I got a bit of a name in the UK as a Military Sabre instructor, though latterly I was much more interested in early-mid period Italian Sidesword and Rapier.  Specifically Di Grassi and Capo Ferro.

[Gareth]

Nice swords. How hard is HEMA to pick up for a complete novice in general?

No harder than any other Martial Art, assuming you have a good instructor running a club.  The alternative is getting a group of friends together and start reading some source material.  It's definitely good fun.

[Gerhard Gerber]

Firstly, very cool, think if I was living in the civilized world I'd join in 

About age 14 I was already well obsessed, had an idea that we'd make sword handles with temporary replaceable "blades" from .75" PVC pipe.....and do some sparing.

For some reason my friends were not as enthusiastic as I was......

[lister]

I always liked HEMA. But the trouble is the only club I know of is on the other side of the country. Granted, the country in question is no more than 300 km across as the crow flies (if that), but I am not the most mobile of creatures. Also, in addition to me going to gym 3 times a week I doubt I could do any decent amount of practice. Especially as it seems to me that these pointy sharp objects require quite a lot of skill to handle. 

The other thing I would like to try is paramotoring. But that is even more expensive.

[pfrsantos]

I used to train with a katana. That´s over 30 years ago though. A katana is a two handed sword, but not too heavy so it´s possible to wield two of them.

Katana should roughly weigh about the same as a Longsword, however the katana is a bit shorter and has the center of balance a bit more foreward.
The longsword can be wielded one handed too (often with a buckler / dagger or shield), but you loose a lot speed/accuracy. Also the power to penetrate armor.

Here from a fencing manual (Talhoffer’s 1459 treatise), longsword with a judicary shield. Notice how the left guy has the pointer over the cross-guard? That increases control when using a one-handed sword. You can see the sidesword has a double cross-guard to protect the finger and later the rapier got a ring for that.
(Image removed from quote.)

And here you can see it in action:
Its rather clumsy

It kind of looks like they are using Cellos as shields.

makes me wanna play cello
These shields are often used two handed, like a cello. Well, slightly different grip...

From what I read, I believe these shields were used alone. they had spikes to act has stabbing weapons and the curves were used to "grab" the opponent. I've seen some books and videos were the shields are not only used for defense but also to attack (and very effectivelly).

[Gerhard Gerber]

The other thing I would like to try is paramotoring. But that is even more expensive.

AKA Powered para-glider.....

That was my absolute obsession for a few years from about 1997.   

If I could afford the machine, I would need to win a lotto and quit my job to be able to do the training and licensing.......or take 6 years to get that done.

The dream died, but if I win that lotto it would flare up quickly.

I can think of few more magical ways to see unreachable parts of my country 

[lister]

The other thing I would like to try is paramotoring. But that is even more expensive.

AKA Powered para-glider.....

That was my absolute obsession for a few years from about 1997.   

If I could afford the machine, I would need to win a lotto and quit my job to be able to do the training and licensing.......or take 6 years to get that done.

The dream died, but if I win that lotto it would flare up quickly.

I can think of few more magical ways to see unreachable parts of my country 

Well it is expensive, but it is the cheapest form of powered flying. I think that you get top of the line equipment for 15k €. If you look around and buy used you can get by with much less. But then you must know what you are buying or have someone that does. If I was serious enough I probably could do it in several years. Or at least I could go through training and licensing as I often find that I enjoy that part more than the actual activity... 

[Don Pablo]

The other thing I would like to try is paramotoring. But that is even more expensive.

AKA Powered para-glider.....

That was my absolute obsession for a few years from about 1997.   

If I could afford the machine, I would need to win a lotto and quit my job to be able to do the training and licensing.......or take 6 years to get that done.

The dream died, but if I win that lotto it would flare up quickly.

I can think of few more magical ways to see unreachable parts of my country 

Well it is expensive, but it is the cheapest form of powered flying. I think that you get top of the line equipment for 15k €. If you look around and buy used you can get by with much less. But then you must know what you are buying or have someone that does. If I was serious enough I probably could do it in several years. Or at least I could go through training and licensing as I often find that I enjoy that part more than the actual activity... 

I like the idea of hang gliding or para sailing also. 

[Gerhard Gerber]

Well I assume much has changed in 20 years, but one thing hasn't: I would have to go to South Africa for the training and licensing 

Back then a PPG cost about as much as my car.......but relatively speaking I was earning much more back then 

What completely put me over the edge was seeing my cousin flying a normal para-glider. 

[Etherealicer]

From what I read, I believe these shields were used alone. they had spikes to act has stabbing weapons and the curves were used to "grab" the opponent. I've seen some books and videos were the shields are not only used for defense but also to attack (and very effectivelly).

Both, they were used one- and two-handed (see the image from the Talhoffer manual above for a two handed example).

[Etherealicer]

Nice swords. How hard is HEMA to pick up for a complete novice in general?

No harder than any other Martial Art, assuming you have a good instructor running a club.  The alternative is getting a group of friends together and start reading some source material.  It's definitely good fun.

Considering this is the 1st sport I took up (at the age of 38 nonetheless), I would say it was rather easy, at least the two-handed longsword.
I think that is mostly because the basic movements come quite natural and you can easily feel when you are doing it right. So despite of having to move with the whole body you get the hang of it quite quickly.
Sidesword (and I presume all one-handed swords) are a bit different. Despite using very similar movements (and 4 years of experience with the longsword) I find it a lot harder. The posture feels unnatural and its hard on the wrist and the shoulder.

Either way, loads of fun. Also, great back exercise for office guys like me.

[styx]

I always liked HEMA. But the trouble is the only club I know of is on the other side of the country. Granted, the country in question is no more than 300 km across as the crow flies (if that), but I am not the most mobile of creatures. Also, in addition to me going to gym 3 times a week I doubt I could do any decent amount of practice. Especially as it seems to me that these pointy sharp objects require quite a lot of skill to handle. 

The other thing I would like to try is paramotoring. But that is even more expensive.

We meet on the border in full plate armour, have our national coat of arms on the shields and just watch as the mayhem ensues. Oh and we start challenging each other to all sorts of contests (jousting, different sword duels, archery, pin the tail on the donkey....) over something idiotic. We wouldn't learn anything but it would be funny

[lister]

I always liked HEMA. But the trouble is the only club I know of is on the other side of the country. Granted, the country in question is no more than 300 km across as the crow flies (if that), but I am not the most mobile of creatures. Also, in addition to me going to gym 3 times a week I doubt I could do any decent amount of practice. Especially as it seems to me that these pointy sharp objects require quite a lot of skill to handle. 

The other thing I would like to try is paramotoring. But that is even more expensive.

We meet on the border in full plate armour, have our national coat of arms on the shields and just watch as the mayhem ensues. Oh and we start challenging each other to all sorts of contests (jousting, different sword duels, archery, pin the tail on the donkey....) over something idiotic. We wouldn't learn anything but it would be funny

Can you imagine if we did that? What could possibly go wrong? I can just imagine the media reaction...