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Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument 5663

Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,902 Any tool is better than nothing. Some not by much
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #120 on: January 18, 2018, 05:08:16 AM »
Another annoying thing I hear in videos about bug out bags...

"Weighs nothing"
Usually something like "I carry 200 feet of paracord because it weighs nothing and..."

Please take all of your 'weighs nothing' crap and put it on a scale, and tell me what the scale says. I BET it doesn't say 0.0, in any weight unit unless you have a very bad scale. It always seems like folks have about five pounds of 'weighs nothing' in their packs.
No Life Club Posts: 1,683
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #121 on: January 18, 2018, 07:54:40 AM »
Nice. Apparently bags with kid stuff on it are much less likely to be stolen, so actually, that's a pretty good call, if you can get over the 'I'm not cool looking' issue.

Also, I see you're carrying one of those 'books'. How is the battery life on it? :D
In all seriousness, I wish I saw more books in folks' bags. Great downtime entertainment, and a few other uses as well. Might wanna consider a ziplock bag for it, though, in case of rain.

I'm actually thinking of going the other way. I have 3 books in my bag, albeit they are small but they create bulk that I would far prefer to lose. I don't use a smartphone so I've been thinking along the lines of a kindle type device. Not had the spare cash though.

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
Full Member Posts: 194
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #122 on: January 18, 2018, 07:45:21 PM »
Thought-provoking post. Many thanks. It all seems obvious yet doesn't manage to be so. Partly--only partly--because so many YouTube (or is it "YouToo") videos are (be honest) quasi-commercial, or at least represent vested interests. A sparse, plain kit wouldn't get any Youtuber much free gear to review. So we see all these 72hr rucksacks with fun but irrelevant kit. All of which may be lovely and even perfect in some other context.

North American 72hr "bugout" bags intrigue me. With the density of Black Holes, and incredible variety of paraphernalia. My philosophy is: Make sure you can walk fast, and even do a slow jog with what you have packed, for at least part of your strategic retreat. In Israel the main problem is going to be major missile attacks. So if the army orders evac in your neighbourhood or a larger area, what would be of high value in a 72hr pack?

I have a pack I keep up to date with mostly supplies and equipment to clean wounds, removing obvious shrapnel and building debris, staunch the bleeding, and wrap the wound. I have a long, slender spring loaded needle pliers (better than many tweezers), a few SAKs kept in a sterile condition, lots of large wound bandages, gauze rolls, large elastic bandages, tourniquets, sterilizing agents, splints, sterile water, sterile eye wash, OTC pain reliever and registered mild opiates. Space blanket to warm an injured person. I am forgetting a few things. A compass--of marginal use short term. Oh--a basic fire starting kit, small but versatile. Ferro rods and lighters and petrolatum-soaked cotton balls.

That's our 72hr pack environment. Foreign enemy. Missiles. With nearly 200,000 in the army, and almost another half-million trained reserves, we will stay community minded and organized. Help is near. A good pack can help any medical personnel in your neighbourhood if buildings have been hit and wounded are in need. Doctors and nurses and paramedics don't usually walk around with gear when off duty. A kit which will help medical pros to debride, sterilize, staunch and close wounds will be a God-send. Mini chess sets,  tactical folders, and AR-7s not so much. For the hypoglycemic out there, seal packs of dried fruit. Sugar is a poor energy food, but will handle those who get low blood sugar easily. I also keep sachets of electrolyte powder. I make tofu jerky, but I always end up eating it. 

I often wonder what the US would be like with 320 millions all bugging out at once. And reactions to local versus regional versus national disasters. Is your army set-up to deploy internally at moment's notice?

An old friend of mine in America figures a $4 Ozark Trail knife, a couple of packets of cheap cigars, and some beef jerky should get him through 72hrs. And he is a retired career cop.       
       
No Life Club Posts: 2,977
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #123 on: January 18, 2018, 11:31:32 PM »
I do have a personal first aid kit and a larger trauma kit as you described, but my EDC bag and my 72 hour bag are both mostly items for my comfort and convenience much more than they would be for any sort of escape and evasion or wilderness survival.  I've never believed in bugging out, except as a last resort, because everything I need is at home and I can't carry everything.

My 72 hour bag contains items that would see me through a time when I am away from modern civilization (stores) such as extra shoelaces and a tube of shoe goo, a compact tool kit, extra flashlights and batteries, meal replacement bars and a roll of toilet paper!  I have created this kit over years of working 24 hour shifts where I can't leave the property, and while participating in historical reenactments that are often on the weekends but too far away from the nearest stores so you have to have everything you may need with you before you start.

Anyone who thinks they can walk out of the city by themselves and survive in the wilderness with what's on their back just isn't going to last very long in the real world, and that is the painful truth.  If you give it the more realistic name of get home bag and your goal is actually getting home in an urban environment, then you're more likely to need tools such as a pry bar and bolt cutters than you are things like fishing line or fire starters.  I had this discussion with a guy who lived in San Francisco and worked in Oakland.  He was genuinely concerned that after an earthquake the roads would be unusable and he would have to walk to get to his kids at school or to his wife at home.  His get home kit included a folding kayak in case that was the only way to get back across the bay.  You have to consider your actual need and equip yourself appropriately.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 11:41:30 PM by Alan K. »
Full Member Posts: 194
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #124 on: January 19, 2018, 08:07:26 AM »
Indeed, such kit needs to be customized to one's circumstance. People with young children and elderly at home have a tremendous responsibility compared to a mobile mid-60s couple like my wife and I. Young children and frail elderly cannot evaluate and act alone.
No Life Club Posts: 1,683
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #125 on: January 19, 2018, 08:13:23 AM »
Fully agree to the three above posts!

Israelpiper (do you play the pipes or smoke one?) I think our situation is relatively unique. Being such a tiny country and having nowhere to run to. There is practically no refugee potential crisis, what direction would we turn to other than the sea? Where is there to hide while the forests are burning and the deserts provide no cover? I'm too young of course but I would be interested in what happened in the Golan during the Yom Kippur war when the Syrians attacked, there must have been settlements that were overrun. What did the people do? Did they flee, did they stay put, in what direction did they go and what if anything did they have the time to take? What kind of resettlement did they have while the war was still in progress? I think studies of that kind would be of the most use for our location. 

Personally I have an 'overnight camping' bag in my car. It has what I need should I need to stay overnight in the car, at work or in a forest up north. Yes it could be a 'BoB' but only if I believed that 'bugging out' as a concept was to truly exist here. Heck I've got a wife and three children and I'm disabled....
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 08:18:02 AM by pomsbz »

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 2,977
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #126 on: January 19, 2018, 09:00:05 AM »
If you've prepared a container with what you think you will need to survive, away from home and unsupported for 72 hours, and you keep that container in your car or office or easily accessible wherever you think you're most likely to need it, then it really doesn't matter what you call the container does it?

Pomsbz, in 1973 those who evacuated may not have brought the right things but at least they survived to return to their homes. Today we have more things that we are dependent on such as our computers and cell phones and we've had years to learn from previous catastrophes what we need to do before, during and after.  Since  you are concerned with what to take in an evacuation see response 20 to this thread, https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,74942.msg1598533.html#msg1598533  I made a list of what's really important, based on my own experiences.
No Life Club Posts: 1,683
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #127 on: January 19, 2018, 09:26:08 AM »
If you've prepared a container with what you think you will need to survive, away from home and unsupported for 72 hours, and you keep that container in your car or office or easily accessible wherever you think you're most likely to need it, then it really doesn't matter what you call the container does it?

Pomsbz, in 1973 those who evacuated may not have brought the right things but at least they survived to return to their homes. Today we have more things that we are dependent on such as our computers and cell phones and we've had years to learn from previous catastrophes what we need to do before, during and after.  Since  you are concerned with what to take in an evacuation see response 20 to this thread, https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,74942.msg1598533.html#msg1598533  I made a list of what's really important, based on my own experiences.

It makes a difference as to a persons level of belief in their system. Most people with a BoB will probably have never tried bugging out with it and surviving 72 hours. Never mind planning multiple routes on foot to the 'outdoors', having the maps, etc. I think that is the demarcation between calling something a BoB and being somewhat more honest to yourself about it? Realising your limitations rather than living in a fantasy world?

I've had to bug out (actually evacuate) for real from a forest fire which brought into sharp relief the reality of leaving with your family when given just 1 minute's notice by the police. At the time we were totally unprepared, there was no warning as it started less than a kilometre away. I have given somewhat more thought to the concept since then.

Can I disagree somewhat as to our dependency on practical irrelevancies such as technology? We don't need them to survive. They will be useful for the psychological boost needed to survive. In a real doomsday prepper type situation phones and computers will be practically useless once there won't be the power and communications infrastructure. In a bug out situation, being able to show the kids a film to calm them down might be very useful. Still not essential though as long as the parents have a good fund of stories and games to play. I read an article on AoM a while back suggesting that a kindle would be a great survival tool simply because you can store a huge amount of instructional material in a tiny package for reference. Another thing I don't see anyone packing in their BoB's is entertainment. Even something as simple as a pack of cards, a pen and paper or a book. Most of us are urban creatures in an age of constant distraction. In a highly charged psychological condition the ability to take your mind off stuff might be invaluable. A kindle with a simple solar charger is a good solution methinks. Whether it will just act as bait for thieves and enemies in a refugee situation is another question.

Incidentally I remember that post of yours and found it very good.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 09:36:53 AM by pomsbz »

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,284 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #128 on: January 19, 2018, 05:18:38 PM »
One little test as what to pack in a bob, ditch the power for a week, if it doesn’t work or you don’t need it, it’s worthelss..you’d be surprised as to what’s worth packing, as I sit in the living room what’s good? All those movies, no, the lamps, no, all the electronics, no, the candles and lighter yeah, the pics wouldn’t do anything besides bring back memories, the couch or table, but I ain’t lugging them, nor the pillows, so only a candle and lighter.. move on to the kitchen, the fridge ain’t going to work, when we lost power for a week we weren’t here but we took totes and packed them full of snow and put them in the fridge, it worked, the stove, well I have a gas, it won’t work because it’s a electric click to start, but, with the lighter in the other room I can start the burners, only thing is I ain’t lugging that stove, but it was good to be able to cook so a mini stove would be good to carry, along with some fuel and a lighter, it’s like a domino effect, something in each room helps the other and so on, you just got to see what would work, what you would need, and is worth carrying?
JR

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR


Zombie Apprentice Posts: 13,426 Hidalgo, Castillo del Hook
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #129 on: January 19, 2018, 06:20:22 PM »
One little test as what to pack in a bob, ditch the power for a week, if it doesn’t work or you don’t need it, it’s worthelss..you’d be surprised as to what’s worth packing, as I sit in the living room what’s good? All those movies, no, the lamps, no, all the electronics, no, the candles and lighter yeah, the pics wouldn’t do anything besides bring back memories, the couch or table, but I ain’t lugging them, nor the pillows, so only a candle and lighter.. move on to the kitchen, the fridge ain’t going to work, when we lost power for a week we weren’t here but we took totes and packed them full of snow and put them in the fridge, it worked, the stove, well I have a gas, it won’t work because it’s a electric click to start, but, with the lighter in the other room I can start the burners, only thing is I ain’t lugging that stove, but it was good to be able to cook so a mini stove would be good to carry, along with some fuel and a lighter, it’s like a domino effect, something in each room helps the other and so on, you just got to see what would work, what you would need, and is worth carrying?
JR
What about when you run out of gas(for the stove)?
I mean, since you mentioned no power, its just fair to consider about a no gas scenario....

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!

Small knives can do what big knives do, just slower.

My 30 day pen challenge! Pretty(?) Pictures inside:
Official 30 Day Pen Challenge!
Full Member Posts: 194
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #130 on: January 19, 2018, 06:41:40 PM »
Fully agree to the three above posts!

Israelpiper (do you play the pipes or smoke one?) I think our situation is relatively unique. Being such a tiny country and having nowhere to run to. There is practically no refugee potential crisis, what direction would we turn to other than the sea? Where is there to hide while the forests are burning and the deserts provide no cover? I'm too young of course but I would be interested in what happened in the Golan during the Yom Kippur war when the Syrians attacked, there must have been settlements that were overrun. What did the people do? Did they flee, did they stay put, in what direction did they go and what if anything did they have the time to take? What kind of resettlement did they have while the war was still in progress? I think studies of that kind would be of the most use for our location. 

Personally I have an 'overnight camping' bag in my car. It has what I need should I need to stay overnight in the car, at work or in a forest up north. Yes it could be a 'BoB' but only if I believed that 'bugging out' as a concept was to truly exist here. Heck I've got a wife and three children and I'm disabled....

Yes, I have been teaching and composing for the Scottish Highland bagpipe for 40 years. Not a drop of Scots in me, though I briefly lived in Edinburgh, and I have visited Scotland quite a few times. I did once smoke a pipe for many years, preferring pure black Latakia tobacco. Gave it up in my late 50s.

Israel is a "last stand" nation. Leaving isn't a thought I'd ever entertain. Many here feel the same way, I am sure. What we may have to do is leave our homes or neighbourhoods on short notice in the event of a missile attack. Our army is a citizen conscript force, so it is us, and we are them.

I know the north from years of hiking on foot. From the top of the Kheirmon, to the lower Galilee, to Lake Kinneret--3000 meters up and 220 meters below sea level. I lived once on a kibbutz on the border with Lebanon, and on another one down in the middle of the Negev desert.

Preparedness is radically different in Israel from the US. We are very organized for disaster, and expect attack. We have an equipped large underground hospital in Haifa, an 8km long tunnel under Mount Karmel with a sealable ventilation system. The new train station in Jerusalem is 80m deep with steel blast doors, and only electric trains will use it, keeping the air clean. Tel Aviv too. All homes have a re-enforced safe room, or access to a near public shelter. Many large shopping centre garages are shelters. Everyone has a gas mask and an atropine auto-injector. We have three anti-missile systems, for low, medium and high level bogies (Iron Dome, Sling of David, The Arrow). The highest percent of first aid trained population in the world. A dense and rapidly growing rail system, and dramatically improved divided highway system, including the Trans-Israel Highway. An integrated military, with army, navy, air force, cyber warfare under a single command. Satellites overhead, nano-satellite capability, drones, cruise missiles, stealth subs, grannies who can field-strip an assault rifle in the dark in a rainstorm.   

What happened on the Golan in 1973? All civilians farm families were removed. Very short notice. Some could hear that mechanical music only a tank lover could appreciate. Families in the lowlands took them in.  Israel's 70 refurbished British Centurions that were then in place on the plateau held off 500 Soviet main battle tanks. Lots of 2km shots hit their marks, mostly bridging tanks. The Syrians fought excellently and bravely with better tanks, but the odds were against them. They threw in only 500 new tanks, and we threw in 70 old but superb Centurions, and had an unbeatable commander-in-chief. He inspired battle-hardened 29 year old battalion commander Colonel Avigdor Kahalani who stopped 150 tanks with his three. After three days of fighting, Israel now outnumbered even more, the Syrians saw a long row of giant angels standing in the Valley of Tears where the battle raged. A voice out of the heavens shouted "STOP ! توقف" and they turned around and went home.

A 72 hour bag is enough. Help is always near-by.   

Americans have a great volunteer spirit. Better than waiting on federal agencies. Many prepared people will help those who are not.  If I got stuck in a bomb shelter in America I'd hope someone had an extra stack of old Superman comics. Figure 10% or 20% of your bag for others, assuming a general disaster at hand.         
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,284 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #131 on: January 19, 2018, 06:42:12 PM »
One little test as what to pack in a bob, ditch the power for a week, if it doesn’t work or you don’t need it, it’s worthelss..you’d be surprised as to what’s worth packing, as I sit in the living room what’s good? All those movies, no, the lamps, no, all the electronics, no, the candles and lighter yeah, the pics wouldn’t do anything besides bring back memories, the couch or table, but I ain’t lugging them, nor the pillows, so only a candle and lighter.. move on to the kitchen, the fridge ain’t going to work, when we lost power for a week we weren’t here but we took totes and packed them full of snow and put them in the fridge, it worked, the stove, well I have a gas, it won’t work because it’s a electric click to start, but, with the lighter in the other room I can start the burners, only thing is I ain’t lugging that stove, but it was good to be able to cook so a mini stove would be good to carry, along with some fuel and a lighter, it’s like a domino effect, something in each room helps the other and so on, you just got to see what would work, what you would need, and is worth carrying?
JR
What about when you run out of gas(for the stove)?
I mean, since you mentioned no power, its just fair to consider about a no gas scenario....
True, but you could always go run to the store and get a gas, unlike electric, unless you work off of a generator, then you need nothing but gasoline. But still, what do you need to survive with no electricity? I mean you could have one of those little hand crank chargers or a solar to charge a phone, but like someone said services would probably be out..
JR

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR


Zombie Apprentice Posts: 13,426 Hidalgo, Castillo del Hook
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #132 on: January 19, 2018, 06:48:56 PM »
One little test as what to pack in a bob, ditch the power for a week, if it doesn’t work or you don’t need it, it’s worthelss..you’d be surprised as to what’s worth packing, as I sit in the living room what’s good? All those movies, no, the lamps, no, all the electronics, no, the candles and lighter yeah, the pics wouldn’t do anything besides bring back memories, the couch or table, but I ain’t lugging them, nor the pillows, so only a candle and lighter.. move on to the kitchen, the fridge ain’t going to work, when we lost power for a week we weren’t here but we took totes and packed them full of snow and put them in the fridge, it worked, the stove, well I have a gas, it won’t work because it’s a electric click to start, but, with the lighter in the other room I can start the burners, only thing is I ain’t lugging that stove, but it was good to be able to cook so a mini stove would be good to carry, along with some fuel and a lighter, it’s like a domino effect, something in each room helps the other and so on, you just got to see what would work, what you would need, and is worth carrying?
JR
What about when you run out of gas(for the stove)?
I mean, since you mentioned no power, its just fair to consider about a no gas scenario....
True, but you could always go run to the store and get a gas, unlike electric, unless you work off of a generator, then you need nothing but gasoline. But still, what do you need to survive with no electricity? I mean you could have one of those little hand crank chargers or a solar to charge a phone, but like someone said services would probably be out..
JR
Flashlights, Hearing aids, alternative wireless communication(satellite, radio), etc?

I love my Thrunite Ti3 and I'm deaf without my hearing aids.  :D

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!

Small knives can do what big knives do, just slower.

My 30 day pen challenge! Pretty(?) Pictures inside:
Official 30 Day Pen Challenge!
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 19,284 Plumbers Know Their Crap!!
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #133 on: January 19, 2018, 07:18:59 PM »
One little test as what to pack in a bob, ditch the power for a week, if it doesn’t work or you don’t need it, it’s worthelss..you’d be surprised as to what’s worth packing, as I sit in the living room what’s good? All those movies, no, the lamps, no, all the electronics, no, the candles and lighter yeah, the pics wouldn’t do anything besides bring back memories, the couch or table, but I ain’t lugging them, nor the pillows, so only a candle and lighter.. move on to the kitchen, the fridge ain’t going to work, when we lost power for a week we weren’t here but we took totes and packed them full of snow and put them in the fridge, it worked, the stove, well I have a gas, it won’t work because it’s a electric click to start, but, with the lighter in the other room I can start the burners, only thing is I ain’t lugging that stove, but it was good to be able to cook so a mini stove would be good to carry, along with some fuel and a lighter, it’s like a domino effect, something in each room helps the other and so on, you just got to see what would work, what you would need, and is worth carrying?
JR
What about when you run out of gas(for the stove)?
I mean, since you mentioned no power, its just fair to consider about a no gas scenario....
True, but you could always go run to the store and get a gas, unlike electric, unless you work off of a generator, then you need nothing but gasoline. But still, what do you need to survive with no electricity? I mean you could have one of those little hand crank chargers or a solar to charge a phone, but like someone said services would probably be out..
JR
Flashlights, Hearing aids, alternative wireless communication(satellite, radio), etc?

I love my Thrunite Ti3 and I'm deaf without my hearing aids.  :D
Well that can be good to, at time I’d sure in hell take be deaf over this tinnitus, especially when it comes to these kids and the wife! lol..

"The-Mad-Plumbarian" The Punisher Of Pipes!!! JR


Zombie Apprentice Posts: 13,426 Hidalgo, Castillo del Hook
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #134 on: January 19, 2018, 07:58:11 PM »
One little test as what to pack in a bob, ditch the power for a week, if it doesn’t work or you don’t need it, it’s worthelss..you’d be surprised as to what’s worth packing, as I sit in the living room what’s good? All those movies, no, the lamps, no, all the electronics, no, the candles and lighter yeah, the pics wouldn’t do anything besides bring back memories, the couch or table, but I ain’t lugging them, nor the pillows, so only a candle and lighter.. move on to the kitchen, the fridge ain’t going to work, when we lost power for a week we weren’t here but we took totes and packed them full of snow and put them in the fridge, it worked, the stove, well I have a gas, it won’t work because it’s a electric click to start, but, with the lighter in the other room I can start the burners, only thing is I ain’t lugging that stove, but it was good to be able to cook so a mini stove would be good to carry, along with some fuel and a lighter, it’s like a domino effect, something in each room helps the other and so on, you just got to see what would work, what you would need, and is worth carrying?
JR
What about when you run out of gas(for the stove)?
I mean, since you mentioned no power, its just fair to consider about a no gas scenario....
True, but you could always go run to the store and get a gas, unlike electric, unless you work off of a generator, then you need nothing but gasoline. But still, what do you need to survive with no electricity? I mean you could have one of those little hand crank chargers or a solar to charge a phone, but like someone said services would probably be out..
JR
Flashlights, Hearing aids, alternative wireless communication(satellite, radio), etc?

I love my Thrunite Ti3 and I'm deaf without my hearing aids.  :D
Well that can be good to, at time I’d sure in hell take be deaf over this tinnitus, especially when it comes to these kids and the wife! lol..
Tinnitus? I get that also.  :facepalm: :rofl:

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!

Small knives can do what big knives do, just slower.

My 30 day pen challenge! Pretty(?) Pictures inside:
Official 30 Day Pen Challenge!
No Life Club Posts: 1,683
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #135 on: January 20, 2018, 06:33:20 PM »
Fully agree to the three above posts!

Israelpiper (do you play the pipes or smoke one?) I think our situation is relatively unique. Being such a tiny country and having nowhere to run to. There is practically no refugee potential crisis, what direction would we turn to other than the sea? Where is there to hide while the forests are burning and the deserts provide no cover? I'm too young of course but I would be interested in what happened in the Golan during the Yom Kippur war when the Syrians attacked, there must have been settlements that were overrun. What did the people do? Did they flee, did they stay put, in what direction did they go and what if anything did they have the time to take? What kind of resettlement did they have while the war was still in progress? I think studies of that kind would be of the most use for our location. 

Personally I have an 'overnight camping' bag in my car. It has what I need should I need to stay overnight in the car, at work or in a forest up north. Yes it could be a 'BoB' but only if I believed that 'bugging out' as a concept was to truly exist here. Heck I've got a wife and three children and I'm disabled....

Yes, I have been teaching and composing for the Scottish Highland bagpipe for 40 years. Not a drop of Scots in me, though I briefly lived in Edinburgh, and I have visited Scotland quite a few times. I did once smoke a pipe for many years, preferring pure black Latakia tobacco. Gave it up in my late 50s.

Israel is a "last stand" nation. Leaving isn't a thought I'd ever entertain. Many here feel the same way, I am sure. What we may have to do is leave our homes or neighbourhoods on short notice in the event of a missile attack. Our army is a citizen conscript force, so it is us, and we are them.

I know the north from years of hiking on foot. From the top of the Kheirmon, to the lower Galilee, to Lake Kinneret--3000 meters up and 220 meters below sea level. I lived once on a kibbutz on the border with Lebanon, and on another one down in the middle of the Negev desert.

Preparedness is radically different in Israel from the US. We are very organized for disaster, and expect attack. We have an equipped large underground hospital in Haifa, an 8km long tunnel under Mount Karmel with a sealable ventilation system. The new train station in Jerusalem is 80m deep with steel blast doors, and only electric trains will use it, keeping the air clean. Tel Aviv too. All homes have a re-enforced safe room, or access to a near public shelter. Many large shopping centre garages are shelters. Everyone has a gas mask and an atropine auto-injector. We have three anti-missile systems, for low, medium and high level bogies (Iron Dome, Sling of David, The Arrow). The highest percent of first aid trained population in the world. A dense and rapidly growing rail system, and dramatically improved divided highway system, including the Trans-Israel Highway. An integrated military, with army, navy, air force, cyber warfare under a single command. Satellites overhead, nano-satellite capability, drones, cruise missiles, stealth subs, grannies who can field-strip an assault rifle in the dark in a rainstorm.   

What happened on the Golan in 1973? All civilians farm families were removed. Very short notice. Some could hear that mechanical music only a tank lover could appreciate. Families in the lowlands took them in.  Israel's 70 refurbished British Centurions that were then in place on the plateau held off 500 Soviet main battle tanks. Lots of 2km shots hit their marks, mostly bridging tanks. The Syrians fought excellently and bravely with better tanks, but the odds were against them. They threw in only 500 new tanks, and we threw in 70 old but superb Centurions, and had an unbeatable commander-in-chief. He inspired battle-hardened 29 year old battalion commander Colonel Avigdor Kahalani who stopped 150 tanks with his three. After three days of fighting, Israel now outnumbered even more, the Syrians saw a long row of giant angels standing in the Valley of Tears where the battle raged. A voice out of the heavens shouted "STOP ! توقف" and they turned around and went home.

A 72 hour bag is enough. Help is always near-by.   

Americans have a great volunteer spirit. Better than waiting on federal agencies. Many prepared people will help those who are not.  If I got stuck in a bomb shelter in America I'd hope someone had an extra stack of old Superman comics. Figure 10% or 20% of your bag for others, assuming a general disaster at hand.       

Are you Israeli born? I've never heard of an Israeli bagpiper! Also asking cause your English is perfect. :) Both of my parents were from Glasgow, spent a lot of time in the Highlands when I was younger. Not a musical note in me though I'm afraid but I do love the pipes. My great grandfather in the Scots Guards would have gone over the top to them at the Somme. I can't stand latakia myself, tastes like burning rubber.  :D Thanks for the history stuff! I do wish they would get a move on and finish that new rail link from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, I drive past the works every day on the way to work in Jerusalme, man but they're digging it deep!

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 2,977
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #136 on: January 21, 2018, 11:38:45 PM »
Evacuating for 72 hours or trying to get home within 72 hours due to weather or some other local emergency is really a different mission than bugging out when you think you're never coming home again.  What is important to bring with you in a 72 hour kit are items of comfort, convenience and necessity of sufficient quantity and variety to support you until you can go home or until you get home.

If you believe you will never be able to return to your home you are bugging out.  If the global situation is such that you are going to try to survive in the bush then you probably will need more than you can carry on your back to make a successful transition.  If you can bug out to a new city then it is possible to start over with just the pack on your back as long as you have enough cash or barter items to purchase whatever else you need that you didn't carry with you.

Local events = shorter duration and help available from unaffected areas.
Global events = longer duration and less help or no help available from unaffected areas as there may not be any unaffected areas.

The greater the scope of the calamity the less likely there is to be help coming from other areas and the effects will last longer without help.  Hurricane Irma was a global event as far as Puerto Rico was concerned because the entire island was affected. Help would need to come from elsewhere, but the hurricane affected the entire Caribbean region. The result is they didn't get a lot of help and there are still people in rural areas of Puerto Rico without power and water and proper sanitation services 4 months after the Hurricane.

What's the point of all that?  It's to remind some people that a 72 hour bag is not the same thing as a bug out bag, because, there has been some confusion. (#Me too)  You couldn't survive bugging out if you were only prepared for 72 unsupported hours.  What if you couldn't return home or if home was not supported by infrastructure for 3000 + hours?  Any way, the original topic concerned bug out bags and we went off topic and got into 72 hour bags and I really think they are two different things.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,902 Any tool is better than nothing. Some not by much
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #137 on: January 22, 2018, 03:54:58 AM »
Any way, the original topic concerned bug out bags and we went off topic and got into 72 hour bags and I really think they are two different things.

uhhh... not exactly. The original post is about 72-hour bags. Those are 'bug out bags' or 'get home bags'. The long term bags are generally called INCH (I'm Never Coming Home) bags.

A Bug Out Bag is not specifically a duration, so I specified 72-hour bags in the initial post, exactly because definitions can be iffy.
No Life Club Posts: 2,977
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #138 on: January 22, 2018, 04:18:09 AM »
Is the thread still on topic then? That is unusual for MTO. :think:
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,902 Any tool is better than nothing. Some not by much
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #139 on: January 22, 2018, 04:39:57 AM »
I dunno. I started this to generate conversation, and in an attempt to seem amusing. :D

Where it goes from there is out of my hands.

Seems to be good conversation on the topic, though so...

But yeah, STRANGELY on topic for MTO.
No Life Club Posts: 1,683
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #140 on: January 22, 2018, 01:07:51 PM »
Is there a moderator or someone we can complain to about this 'on topic' malaise which seems to have infected the thread?

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
OCD Squad Leader Admin Team Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,555
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #141 on: January 22, 2018, 02:37:35 PM »
Due to rule violations, the following member have been banned.

Lynn LeFey - For creating a thread that stayed on topic
Alan K, pomsbz, Pabs - for posting in said thread (I expected better from you guys, especially you Pabs).

Emergency Kit: Ovo Sport, chocolate, cheese, crispbread and a coin
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 13,426 Hidalgo, Castillo del Hook
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #142 on: January 22, 2018, 02:44:53 PM »


 :crash:

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!

Small knives can do what big knives do, just slower.

My 30 day pen challenge! Pretty(?) Pictures inside:
Official 30 Day Pen Challenge!
No Life Club Posts: 1,762 Duck!
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #143 on: January 22, 2018, 03:44:04 PM »
Don't know about you guys, but I love mint chocolate chip ice cream  :pok:
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,902 Any tool is better than nothing. Some not by much
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #144 on: January 22, 2018, 03:59:27 PM »
Due to rule violations, the following member have been banned.

Lynn LeFey - For creating a thread that stayed on topic
Alan K, pomsbz, Pabs - for posting in said thread (I expected better from you guys, especially you Pabs).

No, but... wait... I...  :'(

 :D
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,266
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #145 on: January 22, 2018, 04:23:57 PM »
well since it hit the fan perhaps it would be appropriate to hear Lynn's thoughts of e-tools, trowels, spades and other digging utensils in these bobs

Solving problems you didn't know you had in the most obscure way possible

"And now, it's time to hand this over to our tame race axe driver. Some say, he can live in the forest for six months at a time without food, and he knows of a secret tribe of only women where he is their God. All we know is, he's call the Styx!" - TazzieRob
No Life Club Posts: 1,683
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #146 on: January 22, 2018, 04:39:04 PM »
well since it hit the fan perhaps it would be appropriate to hear Lynn's thoughts of e-tools, trowels, spades and other digging utensils in these bobs

Did someone mention trowels in bobs? Here's mine though it's not a bob cause I don't know anyone called Bob :)


"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 1,683
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #147 on: January 22, 2018, 04:42:02 PM »

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,902 Any tool is better than nothing. Some not by much
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #148 on: January 22, 2018, 06:43:03 PM »
well since it hit the fan perhaps it would be appropriate to hear Lynn's thoughts of e-tools, trowels, spades and other digging utensils in these bobs

Well... now that you ask...

I have owned several e-tools, but they were all apparently of the cheap-crap variety, and my opinion of them is extraordinarily low. On par with the Dollar Tree $1 SAK knockoff. Just short of a complete waste of material, in other words.

The problem is, admittedly, I have never owned a GOOD one, so... (shrug)... BUT...

Minus issues of weight, I think something like the Cold Steel 'Special Forces' Shovel seems pretty awesome. Moreso after I've seen what the Zack Fowler (Winner of season 3 of 'Alone') accomplishes with one. I think in a car kit, something like that would be great. Putting one in a 72 hour kit.... ehh.... no. And that sort of also sums up my feeligns on an e-tool. Car-kit=yes. Bag=no.

Trowel. Yes. BURY YOUR Sh**, people! There's an ultralight 'deuce of spades' trowel, and while I'm normally against titanium (overrated, overly expensive, not impressed), if it gets someone to carry a tool to properly dispose of their poo, then I'm 100% for it.

I've never owned or used a folding trowel, but I'm all for them, if they're reliable.

The only thing i can really think of as a need for digging anything bigger than a cat hole or clearing out an area for a campfire in a 72-hour timeframe is maybe digging a car out of snow. If that's the case, you are AT your car, and a shovel in a car kit seems reasonable. If you're reduced to just a bag, I don't see the reason for a bigger digging tool.

I also kind of wanted to touch on some of the earlier posts, particularly in regards to emergency bags in Israel. I didn't think it needed to be stated, but yeah, an emergency bag is always going to be very dependent on your location. I live in a place where water is abundant (annoyingly so), and wood is plentiful. I live in a place where MAYBE 2 weeks a year, it would really be considered 'winter'. All these things color my perceptions, and inform my decisions on items in an emergency kit. If I lived on the coast, a little fishing kit, or even a pretty sizeable one, might make a LOT of sense, if for nothing other than passing time.

Anyway, good stuff, all. Carry on.  :cheers:


No Life Club Posts: 2,977
Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
« Reply #149 on: January 23, 2018, 07:07:55 AM »
I honestly don't care for the cold steel special forces shovel because it doesn't fold.  I have a combo E-tool that folds so you can use the shovel like a pick which makes for easier digging and it has a spike on the other side for when you hit rocks or really compacted soil.  I have used it to dig fire pits for over 20 years. It is a bit heavy on a hike, but then it gets left in camp while we explore with light weight day packs. If I had to rely on a pocket size trowel to dig any holes I'd be there all day. 

 

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