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I don't need large blades

us Offline ironraven

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #30 on: December 10, 2017, 12:44:05 AM
making the knife a weapon.

I'm going to take some degree of umbrage with that statement. A slipjoint works fine MOST of the time. But it has limits in terms of strength- not just the point it breaks, but the point it closes, particularly when being abused. A locking blade has fewer limits, but they are still there. A fixed blade has the fewest. When you get cut with a folder is most likely when openging or closing, that's why I prefer a one handed opener- the fixed blade is safer in this regaurd, but it's bulky.

Smaller blades can server in the place of a larger one. Most of the time. Sorta. I'd rather choke up on a 4-5 blade to make fine cuts rather than try to use a 58mm for processing something like tinder or a large piece of meat or cutting through something like heavy duty, 2" wide nylon webbing or rope. In much the same way that you can use a 3oz ball peen in place for a full sized framing hammer- you reach the point at which the joke isn't very funny any more.

But to say that makes it a "weapon" is... interesting. Particularly as a condemnation. It's a better tool. How the tool is used is at the discretion of the user. And if given the choice between a 3.5", non locking knife, and a 4" locking knife with the same capabilities, I"m taking the locking knife. Of course, if the bulk of a fixed blade isn't a problem I"m taking a fixed blade and a multitool.
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us Offline Nix

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #31 on: December 10, 2017, 12:48:08 AM
I kinda agree. I don't see that the OHT or 111mm Soldier knife qualifies as a "weapon". For those knives, the lock makes a nice safety. The size seems marginally more practical. But "weapon"? I don't think so. The blade and lock just don't seem robust enough for that. It'd be some extreme and unusual circumstances where that idea would be put into practice. Highly unlikely on the modern battlefield.


us Offline WoodsDuck

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #32 on: December 10, 2017, 05:13:25 AM
I don't have a Soldier, but I do have a OH Trekker, plain edge. Is the Soldier's blade as rounded on the tip as the OHT? If so, that is definitely not an ideal blade to weaponize. Obviously it can still inflict a nasty cut, like any sharp blade, but the penetration seems pretty badly hindered.


us Offline Kampfer

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #33 on: December 10, 2017, 05:32:36 AM
I don't have a Soldier, but I do have a OH Trekker, plain edge. Is the Soldier's blade as rounded on the tip as the OHT? If so, that is definitely not an ideal blade to weaponize. Obviously it can still inflict a nasty cut, like any sharp blade, but the penetration seems pretty badly hindered.
It is rounded.
Maybe according to Swiss law locking blades are "Weapons"?
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gb Offline greenbear

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #34 on: December 10, 2017, 09:17:06 AM
This is an interesting thread and I have a couple of thoughts.  In the UK we are going through something of a culture change as many of you will know due to the much vaunted changes in legislation regarding knife sales.  As someone who has a handful of locking knives I have been thinking over what to carry, depending on circumstances, and settled on a Farmer and a non locking Mercator as legal and smaller bladed tools.

It is a shame to have to think this way, but it is what it is, and sadly we do seem to have an element of knife crime in the UK, and have to amend our carrying habits accordingly.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 09:19:05 AM by greenbear »


ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #35 on: December 10, 2017, 10:17:27 AM
making the knife a weapon.

I'm going to take some degree of umbrage with that statement. A slipjoint works fine MOST of the time. But it has limits in terms of strength- not just the point it breaks, but the point it closes, particularly when being abused. A locking blade has fewer limits, but they are still there. A fixed blade has the fewest. When you get cut with a folder is most likely when openging or closing, that's why I prefer a one handed opener- the fixed blade is safer in this regaurd, but it's bulky.

Smaller blades can server in the place of a larger one. Most of the time. Sorta. I'd rather choke up on a 4-5 blade to make fine cuts rather than try to use a 58mm for processing something like tinder or a large piece of meat or cutting through something like heavy duty, 2" wide nylon webbing or rope. In much the same way that you can use a 3oz ball peen in place for a full sized framing hammer- you reach the point at which the joke isn't very funny any more.

But to say that makes it a "weapon" is... interesting. Particularly as a condemnation. It's a better tool. How the tool is used is at the discretion of the user. And if given the choice between a 3.5", non locking knife, and a 4" locking knife with the same capabilities, I"m taking the locking knife. Of course, if the bulk of a fixed blade isn't a problem I"m taking a fixed blade and a multitool.
Take my whole comment... its a weapon in the legal sense (EU law), in Switzerland it is not ;)

Btw, the reason we are allowed to carry OHO/locking blades in Switzerland, is thanks to the Soldier '08. Before that, those knives where illegal.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 01:13:14 PM by Etherealicer »
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es Offline ThePeacent

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #36 on: December 10, 2017, 02:44:36 PM
surprised about Switzerland...
Here in Spain (and I guess most of the EU) the combination of lock + OHO makes it a weapon to the sight of the authorities and the street people. Can't fight against that, too much TV and ill-thoughts floating around everywhere.   :facepalm:

OHO is frowned upon
locking is frowned upon

put those two together in a  knife and you get everybody running like crazy if you pull it out  :ahhh
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00 Offline Dutch_Tooler

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #37 on: December 10, 2017, 03:07:47 PM
If it only were that easy Peacent... the law is far from harmonised across the EU because this aspect is left to national legislation - and sometimes even state legislation. I can apparently carry a locking blade around in the city here, but not OHO blades. Go figure...

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us Offline Nix

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #38 on: December 10, 2017, 04:09:34 PM
To me, the locking feature was always a safety feature.

Even then, it's no certain thing.

I had an early model Spyderco Endura once, probably a '95 Gen 1. This was before they started putting some relief in the lock release. With heavy cutting pressure, my hand would release the lock and the blade was free to rotate around and cut my fingers....which it did a couple of times. I really liked the Endura, but these lock failures bothered me, so I wrote to Spyderco expressing my concern. They dismissed me and told me their locks didn't fail! Well, I knew better, first hand, and had had the band-aids to prove it. I threw my Endura in the trash because it was too dangerous in my estimation.

No surprise that in a few years they modified the lock release bar to prevent accidental pressure from opening the lock.

Quote
It is a shame to have to think this way, but it is what it is, and sadly we do seem to have an element of knife crime in the UK, and have to amend our carrying habits accordingly.

Have the new laws changed the crime rate in the UK?

I note a couple article from the Guardian this year:

20 Jul 2017:
Quote
Knife crime has also jumped by 20% to 34,703 incidents – the highest level for seven years. The largest increase in knife crime came in London, which accounted for 40% of the rise.
29 Nov 2017:
Quote
This year, 2017, is set to be the worst for fatal stabbings of young people since 2008, when 42 died. Both figures are well above the trend of the past 40 years, which puts stabbing deaths at about one young person a fortnight.





I know we're going off topic here, sorry to derail the thread, but it is an interesting conversation. I think we're dealing with a significant amount reaction to tragedy and maybe not reality. I hate to see tools become perceived as weapons because of a certain feature or set of features.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 04:34:55 PM by Nix »


gb Offline greenbear

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #39 on: December 10, 2017, 05:53:04 PM
I suspect that is part of the problem, knives (of any variety) are simply tools in the right hands, in the wrong hands they can become weapons, but then so can most things.

I doubt the forthcoming knife sale law changes will have much effect on knife crime, largely as I am told repeatedly by police friends that most knife crime is connected with domestic/kitchen knives, which are altogether more readily available.


us Offline Nix

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #40 on: December 10, 2017, 06:00:05 PM
I doubt the forthcoming knife sale law changes will have much effect on knife crime, largely as I am told repeatedly by police friends that most knife crime is connected with domestic/kitchen knives, which are altogether more readily available.

The police I've spoken with here in the USA have said the same thing. It's often a kitchen knife or steak knife that gets picked up in a moment of anger and then used with malice.

Here in Montana, it is common to see people with lock blades clipped in their pockets. It's almost unusual to see a person without a knife clipped to their pocket. And it's a state with fairly low violent crime. I did read of a recent knife murder near here: the weapon was a kitchen knife.


us Offline ironraven

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #41 on: December 10, 2017, 11:12:21 PM
Ether, I read your full post. Trust me. Every part was read, taken individually and as part of the total. No matter how fine most of the ingredients are in the soup, if you put one rotten ingredient in there, the soup is rotten.

And I should know better than to try to have this conversation online. Even here.

I had more that I wanted to say, but I didn't want to bruise anyone's feelings. And honestly, any discussion about "weapons" vs "tools" in intrinsically political and deeply personal. It's like talking about the weather without talking about water and air.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 11:18:06 PM by ironraven »
"Even if it is only the handful of people I meet on the street, or in my home, I can still protect them with this one sword" Kenshin Himura

Necessity is the mother of invention. If you're not ready, it's "a mother". If you are, it's "mom".

"I love democracy" Sheev Palpatine, upon his election to Chancellor.


ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #42 on: December 11, 2017, 08:19:48 AM
surprised about Switzerland...
Here in Spain (and I guess most of the EU) the combination of lock + OHO makes it a weapon to the sight of the authorities and the street people. Can't fight against that, too much TV and ill-thoughts floating around everywhere.   :facepalm:

OHO is frowned upon
locking is frowned upon

put those two together in a  knife and you get everybody running like crazy if you pull it out  :ahhh
Before the soldier '08 it was the same here the combination of OHO + locking was illegal to carry. But its tradition to carry the soldier knife even in private, so they changed the law back to less restrictive.
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ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #43 on: December 11, 2017, 08:26:11 AM
Ether, I read your full post. Trust me. Every part was read, taken individually and as part of the total. No matter how fine most of the ingredients are in the soup, if you put one rotten ingredient in there, the soup is rotten.

And I should know better than to try to have this conversation online. Even here.

I had more that I wanted to say, but I didn't want to bruise anyone's feelings. And honestly, any discussion about "weapons" vs "tools" in intrinsically political and deeply personal. It's like talking about the weather without talking about water and air.
Agreed, laws also often have to compromise. I mean I'm not allowed to carry a double edged dagger, but if I wear a medieval costume and go to a festival where there are lots of people and lots of alcohol, I'm allowed to carry one as part of my costume :think:. All because the traditional Swiss Dagger is double edged and part of many costumes for many events.
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au Offline Brock O Lee

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #44 on: December 11, 2017, 10:36:19 AM
Full sized blades are just plain fun to use! My happy place is 3-4 inches, one hand opening with a pocket clip.

I can get by with a Rambler (and carry one daily) to cut a loose thread, trim a hang nail or cut the tape on a package. But, it runs out of blade length quickly, especially when cutting food. Pocket clip and one hand opening/closing is so convenient when you already have something to cut in your other hand.  :whistle:
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 10:39:14 AM by Brock O Lee »
Hans


ch Offline Etherealicer

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #45 on: December 11, 2017, 12:06:06 PM
I completely agree that for everyday tasks you do not need a large knife.
For me, it's about 6-8cm that does the trick, shorter and I have trouble with cutting apples (always do that, you know, to check for grenades). At the same time, I like light-weight.
OHO (especially in combination with the pocket clip) is a convenience, nothing I really need but I feel it is nice to have.
I doubt I really need a locking blade most of the time, but there is no reason for not to have it. Locking is just some extra safety.

These days, I rarely do any outdoors activity besides hiking, but as soon as you make a fire, a larger blade (not a humongous) comes in handy. A longer edge also makes for much better cutting and with different grips, larger blades can perform a wide variety of tasks.
I also agree with Brock O Lee, large blades are fun to use... :D
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 12:07:26 PM by Etherealicer »
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es Offline ThePeacent

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #46 on: December 11, 2017, 12:42:06 PM
To me, the locking feature was always a safety feature.

I know we're going off topic here, sorry to derail the thread, but it is an interesting conversation. I think we're dealing with a significant amount reaction to tragedy and maybe not reality. I hate to see tools become perceived as weapons because of a certain feature or set of features.

as it should.
Maybe it was you and other people that prompted Spyderco's addition of the Boye Dent in all their backlocks? I am too young to have used and carried old Enduras/Delicas at the time they were popular but all my backlock Spydies with Boye Dent have been reliable and I've never accidentally depressed the lock, even with gloves, under the rain, cutting without seeing my hand or the knife or maneuvering the knife and hand on between twigs and plants

On the subject of crime, using a kitchen knife is a no-brainer   :think:
- lock won't fail or deploy only halfway, as there's no lock to begin with
- blade is twice or three times as long as any folder, more lethal
- the blade is as well as pointier and generally thinner, more dangerous especially against clothing and flesh
- the knife usually has a guard or protection of some sort
- it is cheaper, use it and throw away into the nearest sewer
- and readily available, at stores, homes, offices, and restaurants/bars

but hey, let's ban tiny locking folders and let's see crime drop   :2tu:
if it's so easy, why not ban crime itself in the first place?
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us Offline ToolJoe

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #47 on: December 15, 2017, 03:29:09 AM
I've carried a Vic Spirit and it has more than worked as my only blade so well that it is all I carry anymore for the most part ( I keep a Gerber eab in my bag also)..
I knew my wife was a keeper when she transitioned from calling it a knife thingy to a multi-tool.

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mc Offline Gerhard Gerber

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #48 on: December 15, 2017, 06:59:24 AM
I believe I've never made it out of the house with anything larger than the FinnWolf in my pocket, slightly smaller being the norm.

Since I carry in pocket week days, my knife is not quickly accessible, and I definitely don't see it as a weapon until much later in the game.

Even if I was carrying it clipped, there's no quick deployment, and if somebody comes at me with a knife, defense comes first.....
Would give credit if I could remember, but some youtuber said to give a 5-year old a red marker and tell them to come at you, then try to defend........very sobering thought.  :salute:

Quote
if it's so easy, why not ban crime itself in the first place?

Not profitable enough...... :whistle:


si Offline lister

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #49 on: December 15, 2017, 01:33:41 PM
I don't know where I stand on the whole locking/OHO/weapons issue. I mean I like those kinds of knives. But then again I know a few people that I really don't want to see carrying one. Especially when drunk.  :D
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us Offline WoodsDuck

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #50 on: December 15, 2017, 01:51:15 PM
I don't know where I stand on the whole locking/OHO/weapons issue. I mean I like those kinds of knives. But then again I know a few people that I really don't want to see carrying one. Especially when drunk.  :D

I know some folks I wouldn't trust with a stick, as far as that goes.


us Offline Butch

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #51 on: December 15, 2017, 02:19:58 PM
I don't know where I stand on the whole locking/OHO/weapons issue. I mean I like those kinds of knives. But then again I know a few people that I really don't want to see carrying one. Especially when drunk.  :D

I completely agree with that. The problem is that those type people will disreguard the law, that is what criminals do. So the only thing the law actually does is disarm the good folks, who would not break the law by using the knife in a criminal way to begin with.
Laws are only obeyed by law abiding people..
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 02:22:13 PM by Butch »
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us Offline G-Dizzle

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #52 on: December 15, 2017, 02:38:02 PM
:whistle:



us Offline WoodsDuck

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #53 on: December 15, 2017, 03:06:31 PM
:whistle:

(Image removed from quote.)

How I wish I had one of those instead of the RTAK II. The handle on this thing just doesn't fit my hand at all  :rant:


us Offline G-Dizzle

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #54 on: December 15, 2017, 03:18:49 PM
:whistle:

(Image removed from quote.)

How I wish I had one of those instead of the RTAK II. The handle on this thing just doesn't fit my hand at all  :rant:
I LOVE it. So glad i bought it when i could. So comfortable.


us Offline Dean51

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #55 on: December 15, 2017, 07:14:45 PM
 
I started carrying a knife in the late 60's and for EDC or work, I've never needed a large blade. A knife of 3.5” to 4” closed has always been enough. If I need more I'll go get a saw or pry bar.
Knives cut and slice, that's all they do. Anything that interferes with that is a waste of steel. Things like Saber grinds and or thick blade stock are for swords and hatchets.
Small and thin is in.

Most days I do fine with a pocket knife aka slip joint. Usually two but that's just because I'm a knife knut. One in the RFP and one in a small sheath. This choice was one carbon steel and a stainless.


Sometimes I'll carry something more modern with the slip joint if I feel a little more handle or better steel would be nice to have. Sometimes just because I can but it will usually be the second knife and not the primary user.


The Mini-Barrage has had the assist spring removed. In all my years of carrying a knife I've never had to whip out and deploy one. That evil box, radiator hose, plastic or what ever, isn't going any where and so far none of those items has ever been a threat to my life.

Locking blades are something I do not to rely on. Anyone who tells me they need a lock, I'll probably tell them they are not using the knife correctly and in a safe manor.
Things can happen to locking mechanisms, pocket lint, dust or sand can cause them to fail.
So I take my time, think about how I'm going to cut it and cut safely.
Common sense doesn't fail.


us Offline Joe58

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Re: I don't need large blades
Reply #56 on: December 15, 2017, 07:40:35 PM
Would give credit if I could remember, but some youtuber said to give a 5-year old a red marker and tell them to come at you, then try to defend........very sobering thought.  :salute:

Little OT, but this made me recall quite a few years ago now when I still working in the jail and had training for how to handle an inmate with a shank. We did a similar exercise using a sharpie and I soon learned no matter what I do, I’m really going to be bleeding all over.
🇨🇭


 

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