On Fire in Emergencies

[Etherealicer]

Ok, here it comes... I have never been in an emergency, where I needed to make fire and the likelihood of me getting in such an emergency I would rate as zilch... I cannot even think of an emergency where I would need to make fire.
Yet whenever I look around, every emergency kit (including mine, see attachment) has at least a dozend ways to start a fire. In addition to that, there is cotton balls, tinder and other flammable materials.

So, anyone ever been in an emergency that required you to make a fire?
What realistic scenario do you fear that would need you to make a fire?

This is not a critique, more a personal curiosity.

[pomsbz]

I think it's very much a 'let's escape to the forest' survival scenario which doesn't really compute for most outside of the prepper fantasy community. My hiking firestarter kit is specifically for cooking purposes.

[Gareth]

I can only think of one time I truly "needed" a fire.  That was while out hiking in winter and even then no-one would have died without it. 

[Etherealicer]

I can only think of one time I truly "needed" a fire.  That was while out hiking in winter and even then no-one would have died without it.

But that does not sound like an emergency, that is making fire for fun (and fun it is)... I mean if I go out hiking and plan on making some bread on a stick, of course I need some fire-making device. But then the fire-making was the plan all along and I can quickly check if my lighter is functional beforehand (no need for 7 backups).

[kottskrapa]

I hike all year around, fishing, kayaking and just walking around in the woods all year around and do carry a "kit" or just the things I know I will use.. So even if I have ways to start a fire and usually do, it is not for emergencies but more for food or comfort or just to have a nice time.. So it may look like a emergency kit it really just is a comfy kit with things that I don't like rattling around in my pocket. Firesteel, lighter, cord (mostly for extra emergency shoelaces) and firestarting papper.

But not for emergencies but would work for that to I guess

[It's not failure if you learn something from it]

[lister]

We live in similar environments, so imagine you went cross country skying and you broke your leg. I know both countries have a good mountain rescue service but it still takes a while for them to find you, especially if you have not cell phone signal. And it gets cold enough to die of hypothermia. So a fire would be nice...

And in similar situations to light a propane stove to make something to eat. My father does a lot of cross country skying and there is one story of how once all of them forgot to bring any lighters. And then he tried to make electric arc with a couple of 4.5V flat batteries (and carbon electrodes form one of those batteries). He managed to produce the arc but the butane didn't catch on fire. It was still a good way to pass the time as he tells it.  

Also now he always has several lighters with him. 

[styx]

Needed to? Well it is debatable if I needed to make a fire but I did and still don't regret that decision.

Is there now a chance where I would need to make fire in an emergency? Rarely and it is a small chance, but one that exists non the less. Hiking in the colder months and going out of town for different reasons could result in a smurfy situation where fire would be welcome. For instance yesterday I had to go to another town for a workshop. Didn't want to get in a car accident (and fortunately I didn't) but the roads are a bit slicker, people are driving a bit faster for some reason and I had a Spyderco Rescue in my pocket just in case. One of those situations where I'd rather have an option and not need it than end up needing it and not having it

[Gerhard Gerber]

Well, I've needed fire and couldn't make it, just not sure if lighting a cigarette counts.........? 

Your question is valid, but I think it depends on the kit and how and where it lives or is carried.

I spent a week with a ferro rod riding in my pocket until I realized I was being ridiculous 

In my car definitely, EDC definitely not!

Living in a small city I can walk home from almost anywhere, there will be very little to nothing to burn along the way.......

As soon as I'm even on the outskirts of town, a kit could come in very useful. 

[Etherealicer]

We live in similar environments, so imagine you went cross country skying and you broke your leg. I know both countries have a good mountain rescue service but it still takes a while for them to find you, especially if you have not cell phone signal. And it gets cold enough to die of hypothermia. So a fire would be nice...

And in similar situations to light a propane stove to make something to eat. My father does a lot of cross country skying and there is one story of how once all of them forgot to bring any lighters. And then he tried to make electric arc with a couple of 4.5V flat batteries (and carbon electrodes form one of those batteries). He managed to produce the arc but the butane didn't catch on fire. It was still a good way to pass the time as he tells it.  

Also now he always has several lighters with him. 

Ok , with a broken leg, I won't be collecting firewood, especially not in the snow (its questionable that there is any, I mean treeline is at about 2000m)... I rather rely on my smartphone to rescue me from that (note that no emergency kit has a backup phone). If I'm with friends, they can help me stay warm or they could use the skis to make a splinter and a stretcher.

Or lets say you fall into ice cold water in the mountains. You need heat immediately, your finger are cold, you won't be able to use a ferro rod. Unless it is really cold, like -20°C, then you are better off keeping moving.

[Poncho65]

Great thread I carry a lighter and a ferro rod in a small kit in my backpack and do use the lighter to melt the ends of pull starter rope at work The ferro rod is more just for fun though If I ever get the time to go out in the woods again I have a fire kit but only in an emergency (and no cell service) would I have to have it I carry fire making stuff because it is fun more than a need though

[lister]

We live in similar environments, so imagine you went cross country skying and you broke your leg. I know both countries have a good mountain rescue service but it still takes a while for them to find you, especially if you have not cell phone signal. And it gets cold enough to die of hypothermia. So a fire would be nice...

And in similar situations to light a propane stove to make something to eat. My father does a lot of cross country skying and there is one story of how once all of them forgot to bring any lighters. And then he tried to make electric arc with a couple of 4.5V flat batteries (and carbon electrodes form one of those batteries). He managed to produce the arc but the butane didn't catch on fire. It was still a good way to pass the time as he tells it.  

Also now he always has several lighters with him. 

Ok , with a broken leg, I won't be collecting firewood, especially not in the snow (its questionable that there is any, I mean treeline is at about 2000m)... I rather rely on my smartphone to rescue me from that (note that no emergency kit has a backup phone). If I'm with friends, they can help me stay warm or they could use the skis to make a splinter and a stretcher.

Or lets say you fall into ice cold water in the mountains. You need heat immediately, your finger are cold, you won't be able to use a ferro rod. Unless it is really cold, like -20°C, then you are better off keeping moving.

I was not talking about ferro rod or matches but lighters. They work great, even at 2000 meters. And there is still stuff to burn above tree line. Pinus Mungo comes to mind. There is a smurf load of it in our part of the Alps. And it burns well (though any sausages you illegally prepared on it taste like pine resin). Granted it might be impossible for you to gather the wood but you friends could. And I think that more people are able to make a fire and wait for da choppa compared to making a strecher/sleds to get you off the mountain.

In addition you can use the lighter to melt the ends of rope you had to cut up for some reason, to melt threads of your disintegrating clothing, light the propane stove, warm up your sleeping bag (though be careful you don't end up lighting yourself on fire), making a fire in a cabin you intend to sleep in... I mean, I find uses for a lighter when I am in a civilised part of the world, how could I fail to do so in a wilderness setting? 

[pomsbz]

We live in similar environments, so imagine you went cross country skying and you broke your leg. I know both countries have a good mountain rescue service but it still takes a while for them to find you, especially if you have not cell phone signal. And it gets cold enough to die of hypothermia. So a fire would be nice...

And in similar situations to light a propane stove to make something to eat. My father does a lot of cross country skying and there is one story of how once all of them forgot to bring any lighters. And then he tried to make electric arc with a couple of 4.5V flat batteries (and carbon electrodes form one of those batteries). He managed to produce the arc but the butane didn't catch on fire. It was still a good way to pass the time as he tells it.  

Also now he always has several lighters with him. 

Ok , with a broken leg, I won't be collecting firewood, especially not in the snow (its questionable that there is any, I mean treeline is at about 2000m)... I rather rely on my smartphone to rescue me from that (note that no emergency kit has a backup phone). If I'm with friends, they can help me stay warm or they could use the skis to make a splinter and a stretcher.

Or lets say you fall into ice cold water in the mountains. You need heat immediately, your finger are cold, you won't be able to use a ferro rod. Unless it is really cold, like -20°C, then you are better off keeping moving.

I was going to write about people somehow collecting wood with a broken leg but you beat me to it.  Personally I'm of the opinion that using on a ferro rod when you could use a lighter is plain masochism but I'm sure I'll be creamed for that statement.  I'd also imagine that a lot (not all!) of the hypothetical situations used to explain the need for emergency fire need are plain bad or even criminally bad preparation. Going alone without proper equipment, training, communication equipment and protocols, backup or clothing. I'd imagine that anyone prepared enough to have a fire kit would not be setting out without sufficient preparation. Many of the other scenarios (SHTF) are fantastical at best in that they assume that an emergency might happen which would necessarily still allow you time and access to your bag/gear/car or allow you to use them. Or situations where lighting fires or carrying big knives would not put you in far greater danger than you already are.

This goes back to the kind of stuff in the GHB/BoB thread. My current thinking is that I honestly believe that talking to people who have done it for real (refugees, victims, etc) will give a far better real world outlook on dealing with such situations than retired special forces guys on youtube. The ex-SF guys are used to going into a situation and environment specifically expecting trouble, hardship and having to rely on found resources. They have the preparation, training and mindset to deal with it. The refugees, people running from forest fires, people left with a broken car in the wilderness and cold, they didn't expect it to happen, they grabbed what they could and left, with their families and kids, in a whirlwind of emotion and fears. Any 'emergency' that we might prepare for will be far closer to the latter than the former and I think the lessons learnt from that would be far more useful. I think that when an 'emergency' happens you will either be trained and equipped to the extent that it is not an emergency or its very likely that nothing you have prepared will be particularly helpful. If you're at the point where you need a bow drill, it's unlikely fire is going to save you. If you had a knife to use for making primitive fire, why on earth would you not have had a lighter also?

Just my opinion. I've had to bug out for real with the family and it got me thinking a bit.

[lister]

I agree. Most of the time emergency fire is not something you will need. But a lighter is useful and light (hey it's in the name right  ). And sometimes you might be in a situation where you can use it to actually save your smurf. Or at least make yourself more comfortable. I see no reason not to edc two (a mini bic and a peanut lighter as a backup). But when out adventuring just carry 4. Ferro rods are in my opinion useless. There is no situation where ferro rod will work and 4 lighters won't (ok, except high altitudes but event there you are better off with zippo or matches). There are a lot of situation were ferro rod won't work but a lighter will. The only advantage of a ferro rod is if you want it stored for 10+ years. There a bic might fail. But to be honest, I never plan so far ahead regarding my gear. 

[Lynn LeFey]

I was hiking in the Smoky Mountains once, on the Appalachian Trail. We were maybe 6-10 miles from the trail head. It was early spring and we had a cold front roll through. We got a freezing mist at about noon and the trail became extraordinarily precarious. Most of the hike that remained was downhill.

Nothing bad happened, but an ankle injury at that point (I'm not talking a break, but something that would hobble you) would have left me in a really bad predicament. Too early in the year to have someone happen by to get help. Too slow to make it back to the car before dark. Very cold, and Everything was wet.

What DID happen was that we hauled @$$ down the mountain and spent the night at a Holiday Inn.

Then again, this was in a pre-cell phone era. But on the flip side, the terrain of the Smokies means there are LOTS of areas with no cell reception.

So, it's not beyond imagination.

I also spent a lot of time in my youth hiking the strip mined areas in my county. An injury and bad weather there could result in a similar situation.

Also, if you're with someone who is injured, and they don't have sufficient time to get to help by nightfall.

But, yes, most of this is 'boyscout' stuff. What I often like to call 'Smurfing around in the woods'. Not all that practical. I'm often really surprised how many survival kits focus on firestarting, and ignore the MASSIVE amount of wood an overnight fire actually needs, or don't bother to pack stuff to stay warm and dry to begin with. Nope. Oh, and don't bother with a ground pad either.

EDIT: Also... wow. OTHER people who think Lighters make infinitely more sense than ferro rods. After making something like 500 fires in the woods, I have had a lighter fail on me exactly... EXACTLY zero times. ONE lighter. Back then, I didn't even carry a backup. Admittedly, I'm in the midwest, so no high altitudes.

[Etherealicer]

I was hiking in the Smoky Mountains once, on the Appalachian Trail. We were maybe 6-10 miles from the trail head. It was early spring and we had a cold front roll through. We got a freezing mist at about noon and the trail became extraordinarily precarious. Most of the hike that remained was downhill.

Nothing bad happened, but an ankle injury at that point (I'm not talking a break, but something that would hobble you) would have left me in a really bad predicament. Too early in the year to have someone happen by to get help. Too slow to make it back to the car before dark. Very cold, and Everything was wet.

What DID happen was that we hauled @$$ down the mountain and spent the night at a Holiday Inn.

Then again, this was in a pre-cell phone era. But on the flip side, the terrain of the Smokies means there are LOTS of areas with no cell reception.

So, it's not beyond imagination.

I also spent a lot of time in my youth hiking the strip mined areas in my county. An injury and bad weather there could result in a similar situation.

Also, if you're with someone who is injured, and they don't have sufficient time to get to help by nightfall.

But, yes, most of this is 'boyscout' stuff. What I often like to call 'Smurfing around in the woods'. Not all that practical. I'm often really surprised how many survival kits focus on firestarting, and ignore the MASSIVE amount of wood an overnight fire actually needs, or don't bother to pack stuff to stay warm and dry to begin with. Nope. Oh, and don't bother with a ground pad either.

EDIT: Also... wow. OTHER people who think Lighters make infinitely more sense than ferro rods. After making something like 500 fires in the woods, I have had a lighter fail on me exactly... EXACTLY zero times. ONE lighter. Back then, I didn't even carry a backup. Admittedly, I'm in the midwest, so no high altitudes.

Finally some realistic scenario.
Except, with the right shoes, the risk of ankle injury goes way down. Also, sprained ankle and the like, while highly likely, are better treated with a compression bandage than fire, yet you never/rarely find compression bandage on the "must have" list for your emergency kit*.

Everybody should know how to do this (also same for the knee):


* In one case I recently read (can't seem to find it anymore) they suggested to have condoms and female hygiene products because they make good bandages... you know what else makes good bandages? Bandages!

[Lynn LeFey]

My husband is prone to rolling his ankles. I need to check my medical kits to make sure I have ankle wraps in there. Unrelated to fire, but thanks. 

Also, even wrapped, you can't walk 6 miles on a foot like that.

[Etherealicer]

My husband is prone to rolling his ankles. I need to check my medical kits to make sure I have ankle wraps in there. Unrelated to fire, but thanks. 

I'm too (only my left ankle, old injury). Anyway, I always have a brace when I go hiking in low-cut shoes. Just in case.

[Lynn LeFey]

My hubby always wears hightop boots with good ankle support. But one day, on a dry, perfectly flat sidewalk, he just rolled one and I had ot walk home to get the car to come pick him up (only a few blocks from home). Still...

I think his is also a recurring injury. I THINK it's the same ankle.

[Lynn LeFey]

you know what else makes good bandages? Bandages!

Wait... what? 

I prefer 3"x3" bandages. I generally think they can be cut to smaller sizes if needed.

EDIT: Also... THANK YOU! I have looked at a lot of videos of the 'best survival kit' type stuff, Bug out bags, get home bags, and as far as I can tell the winner is... any distance backpacker. Not BUILDING shelter, but taking it WITH you. Not hunting/trapping/fishing, but TAKING FOOD WITH YOU!!! Every f'ing idiot talking about stuffing garbage bags full of wet, moldy, bug infested leaves instead of taking a $5 frickin closed cell foam groundpad. Oh, no, but they'll haul literally 8 pounds of firearms and ammo. And not a change of dry clothes in sight. 

[lister]

I am sure some of that ammo can help them lighting a fire... 

[pomsbz]

* In one case I recently read (can't seem to find it anymore) they suggested to have condoms and female hygiene products because they make good bandages... you know what else makes good bandages? Bandages!

Stop being so sensible!

[Etherealicer]

you know what else makes good bandages? Bandages!

Wait... what? 

I prefer 3"x3" bandages. I generally think they can be cut to smaller sizes if needed.

EDIT: Also... THANK YOU! I have looked at a lot of videos of the 'best survival kit' type stuff, Bug out bags, get home bags, and as far as I can tell the winner is... any distance backpacker. Not BUILDING shelter, but taking it WITH you. Not hunting/trapping/fishing, but TAKING FOOD WITH YOU!!! Every f'ing idiot talking about stuffing garbage bags full of wet, moldy, bug infested leaves instead of taking a $5 frickin closed cell foam groundpad. Oh, no, but they'll haul literally 8 pounds of firearms and ammo. And not a change of dry clothes in sight. 

I was thinking of something like this (you probably can use it to make a fire too ):

[Etherealicer]

I am sure some of that ammo can help them lighting a fire... 

Or make a fire redundant after falling into a pond with those tactical "floating" devices

[Lynn LeFey]

I am sure some of that ammo can help them lighting a fire... 

Or make a fire redundant after falling into a pond of water with those tactical "floating" devices

Ironically, the guy's name was 'Bob'.

[lister]

* In one case I recently read (can't seem to find it anymore) they suggested to have condoms and female hygiene products because they make good bandages... you know what else makes good bandages? Bandages!

Stop being so sensible!

On the other hand female hygiene products and condoms make good female hygiene products and condoms which also comes in handy. And at least one of those can facilitate sharing body heat so there is less need for a fire during night... 

[Etherealicer]

* In one case I recently read (can't seem to find it anymore) they suggested to have condoms and female hygiene products because they make good bandages... you know what else makes good bandages? Bandages!

Stop being so sensible!

On the other hand female hygiene products and condoms make good female hygiene products and condoms which also comes in handy. And at least one of those can facilitate sharing body heat so there is less need for a fire during night... 

I don't know, but I always find a broken leg to be a bit of a "mood killer"
Condoms make also good slingshots for hunting

[Lynn LeFey]

I sort of alluded to this earlier with the 'groundpad' comment.

There is a weird, and to me inexplicable fascination in the prepper community with improvising stuff that I personally feel REALLY ought to be directly planned for. In a 72-hour bag, for instance. You KNOW that you are going to need to sleep. If you are likely to need to sleep outdoors, it seems to me, STRONGLY... that you should prepare for that with specific gear. And if it's a 'get home' bag, then smurfing around building shelter is wasting time and calories that you could put toward GETTING HOME, or resting to get home, not smurfing around in the woods playing Grizzly Adams.

Hikers do this ALL the time. They carry a dedicated, lightweight shelter and sleep system. And it doesn't add a ton of weight to include a 4-season system over a 3-season system. It's really just a better cold-weather bag.

Fire has a few purposes in survival: warmth, cooking, water purification, and... way out there... keeping wildlife at bay. You don't need it for warmth if you have a good shelter setup. You don't NEED to cook if you plan ahead with the right food, or understanding short-term, get that you don't really need food at all. Or, hey, cold soak. There are a lot of other methods of water purification, down to as small as tablets. And boiling won't do anything to water that tablets won't, meaning both just kill mircobes. Neither remove heavy metals and such. Keeping vicious killer animals at bay is so far out there as to essentially be completely fiction (at least in the continental U.S.).

So, why is it SO focussed on?
1) it fits in a very small kit. You're not going to get a 0-degree sleeping bag into an altoids tin.
2) It's a good deal more 'renewable' than something like purification tablets.
3) Mostly, IMO, is because people feel all bad-ass when they make fires. Moreso when they do it in the least efficient way possible. Hey, Dave Cantebury and Bear Grylls do it! Bow-drill, friction fire, ferro rod, fresnel lens, ziplock bag of water, polished bottom of soda can, infinite insanity. People can't seem to separate survivalism and practicality.

I would be more against firemaking for emergencies, but the truth is... it's inexpensive, lightweight, portable, and if firecraft is the thing that gets people into the woods, then I'm cool with it.

As for it's actual necessity. Yeah... not likely.

[MadPlumbarian]

Well, I kinda needed fire, I had to sterile a pin to pop a blister while out..
JR

[Gerhard Gerber]

  Personally I'm of the opinion that using on a ferro rod when you could use a lighter is plain masochism but I'm sure I'll be creamed for that statement.

Not creamed exactly, but I would like to point out that I do use a ferro rod for every fire, simply because it teaches you good fire building skills.

Locally we have a fire lighter product called Blitz, and Blitz has become a generic term for fire lighters here.....

Fact is without good preparation or Blitz, you will fail just a miserably with a BIC........

[Gerhard Gerber]

....and if any of you have those small Light my Fire ferro rods, you can throw it in the trash where if belongs