Quote from: Gareth on December 14, 2017, 09:21:29 AMI can only think of one time I truly "needed" a fire. That was while out hiking in winter and even then no-one would have died without it. But that does not sound like an emergency, that is making fire for fun (and fun it is)... I mean if I go out hiking and plan on making some bread on a stick, of course I need some fire-making device. But then the fire-making was the plan all along and I can quickly check if my lighter is functional beforehand (no need for 7 backups).
I can only think of one time I truly "needed" a fire. That was while out hiking in winter and even then no-one would have died without it.
So, anyone ever been in an emergency that required you to make a fire?What realistic scenario do you fear that would need you to make a fire?This is not a critique, more a personal curiosity.
What realistic scenario do you fear that would need you to make a fire?
Keeping vicious killer animals at bay is so far out there as to essentially be completely fiction (at least in the continental U.S.).
3) Mostly, IMO, is because people feel all bad-ass when they make fires. Moreso when they do it in the least efficient way possible. Hey, Dave Cantebury and Bear Grylls do it! Bow-drill, friction fire, ferro rod, fresnel lens, ziplock bag of water, polished bottom of soda can, infinite insanity. People can't seem to separate survivalism and practicality.
Quote from: Etherealicer on December 14, 2017, 08:39:22 AMWhat realistic scenario do you fear that would need you to make a fire?First, I think you're asking the wrong question. I don't fear a situation where I need to make a fire. Because I can do so.
Quote from: Etherealicer on December 14, 2017, 08:39:22 AMWhat realistic scenario do you fear that would need you to make a fire?First, I think you're asking the wrong question. I don't fear a situation where I need to make a fire. Because I can do so. For me, the fear is being denied the ability to do those things that I can do. Its like fearing becoming a cripple- you don't need your eyes, you don't have to walk, you don't even need teeth any more, "civilization" has things that will take care of that for you. Perhaps if it is anything, it is fearing that I am no longer the master of my own fate, and thus dependent on the mercy and charity of others and on fate or luck or some god, whatever reason you want to blame for "scat happens".You should just carry the means to start a fire. Just like you should just carry a knife. Why? Because of the same reason you change the batteries in your smoke detector twice a year, yet most of us will never need it. This is one of those head scratcher questions- it's like asking "why do you carry a flashlight" or "why do you carry a knife" or "why do you know how to tie knots" or "why do you use a pen and paper and not your phone". Any place else, I wouldn't even try to answer the question, but here, sure. Realistic scenario. OK. I haven't had space for enough freezer for it to make much sense to hunt more than small game for a while. But when I hunted, I was in an area probably 10 or 12 square miles with no real roads and other than a few seasonal deer camps no houses because it was paper company forest land and then a state reserve. Not huge, but if anything goes wrong you're on your own until you're declared overdue or you find your own way out. There is a SAR callup at least once a year up there, and body drag every three or four years. Never got so lost I couldn't find my way back to camp, but I have stumbled into camp an hour or two after dark because I could see the mountains and had an idea which way was which the time I had two compasses disagreeing but neither had the sun setting in the west. If there were thick, low clouds, I"d have started making shelter and building a fire. Should have done that anyway, but I was still young enough to think myself 10 feet tall and bullet proof rather than trying to navigate by stars, moon and the shadows of the mountains against the sky. I've also had ice fail under me probably half a dozen times- if I'd been more than quarter mile from home or camp, I'd have wanted a fire right there, right then. A few of those times I was very hypothermic, but I was heading towards warmth and people so I didn't stop. And I got lucky. One of those times, I slipped and did my knee up- patella was on the back of the knee once I was out of the brook. Good news was I was 50 yards from the house and I could lizard crawl and I was deep enough in the snow that the wind chill wasn't so bad. Coldest I've ever been. If this had happened where I hunted, I"d have splinted it, and tried to build a fire. Probably would have failed. Failure would have been death. And that's better than crying to death in the snow because I'm cold and I"m hurt and I don't have the ability to start a fire. What it comes down to is a gamble. You stack the deck. You take advantage of the fact that your ancestors figured this stuff out, you can learn from their mistakes. In effect, you cheat. I carry a ferro rod on my keys, and a lighter in my pocket every day. The ferro rod is my first choice when I don't need a fire right away, to keep in practice and it's just fun. If I need a fire right now, I reach for the lighter, but I've had them fail. I have a spare lighter in my backpack, and between it and my pockets enough batteries and wire I should be able to get something to short. But the ferro rod doesn't mind being wet. It doesn't crap out at 10 below and gail force winds. (I also have a couple of large heat packs in the bag, and two body sized ones and a couple of little hand and foot sized in my coat during winter. I stack the deck. If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying to win.)Now, if I lived in an urban location (we'll ignore that I'd probably go gibbering mad in a few months), I might not carry the ferro rod. But... I probably would. Same reason I carry a plastic business card in my wallet that has morse code and a punch out compass that I would need to float- because I do. Right there with a chunk of aluminum foil and a frensel lens and spare cash. Have for a long time. And any smartarse cityboy with pretty hair who wants to find it funny, well... That would be a failure of imagination combined with a lack of self preservation instinct on their part. But yes, too many people, they have no idea what to do with their ferro rod. Their ancestors will turn their backs to these evolutionary failures. Century upon century of advancement, not needing to bang the rocks together, and they failed. Some humans, you just don't want to have the same number of chromosomes as.
I'm just going to play devils advocate here. How much of the above could be changed from 'realistic scenario for needing a fire kit', to 'realistic scenario where not going out after dark without properly functioning equipment, or alone, or walking on thin ice is a good idea'? Fire in your examples is a solution to problems that could have been avoided. Please note that I'm playing devils advocate. I fully appreciate the drive and want for solitude and independence in the hills, regardless of 'safer' options.
Quote from: pomsbz on December 16, 2017, 06:06:10 PMI'm just going to play devils advocate here. How much of the above could be changed from 'realistic scenario for needing a fire kit', to 'realistic scenario where not going out after dark without properly functioning equipment, or alone, or walking on thin ice is a good idea'? Fire in your examples is a solution to problems that could have been avoided. Please note that I'm playing devils advocate. I fully appreciate the drive and want for solitude and independence in the hills, regardless of 'safer' options.So... we can play devils advoate all we want, and make one of two choices. Choice one is to never do anything risky. That leads to a pasteurized, tranquilized "civilization" of people who never leave sight of blacktop, and never do anything. Never makes anything. Never amounts to anything. But it's safe. Its comfortable. It's easy. If something breaks, you call for "professional help". No danger. No risk. No hazard. Never have to do for yourself. Never have to think for yourself. Never face a hazard. Never deal with the unknown. Define "chaos" as the internet is out or the pizza delivery guy brought you the wrong pie. This is an evolutionary dead end. Choice two is accept that bad luck, bad timing, and equipment failure all happen, and prepare for them with proper training and equipment, with redundancies, to mitigate that risk. But then you have to admit that you an't prepare for everything, and sometimes smurf happens. Sometimes you made a bad call, get in over your head, and you have to do everything in your power to get out of that situation becuase quite often unless you brought friends who are all now in the soup with you you have no one to call who can be there to save you. This is being in a state of constant evolution.Seem to recall that case two is the reason things like multitools came into existence, rather than case one.
I think that pomsbz was wondering why you didn't stack the deck enough. Example, bring the required gear so you can safely spend the night out in the cold and snow, a GPS, etc. And don't walk on ice.
Realistic scenario. OK. I haven't had space for enough freezer for it to make much sense to hunt more than small game for a while. But when I hunted, I was in an area probably 10 or 12 square miles with no real roads and other than a few seasonal deer camps no houses because it was paper company forest land and then a state reserve. Not huge, but if anything goes wrong you're on your own until you're declared overdue or you find your own way out. There is a SAR callup at least once a year up there, and body drag every three or four years. Never got so lost I couldn't find my way back to camp, but I have stumbled into camp an hour or two after dark because I could see the mountains and had an idea which way was which the time I had two compasses disagreeing but neither had the sun setting in the west. If there were thick, low clouds, I"d have started making shelter and building a fire. Should have done that anyway, but I was still young enough to think myself 10 feet tall and bullet proof rather than trying to navigate by stars, moon and the shadows of the mountains against the sky.
I've also had ice fail under me probably half a dozen times- if I'd been more than quarter mile from home or camp, I'd have wanted a fire right there, right then. A few of those times I was very hypothermic, but I was heading towards warmth and people so I didn't stop.
And I got lucky. One of those times, I slipped and did my knee up- patella was on the back of the knee once I was out of the brook. Good news was I was 50 yards from the house and I could lizard crawl and I was deep enough in the snow that the wind chill wasn't so bad. Coldest I've ever been. If this had happened where I hunted, I"d have splinted it, and tried to build a fire. Probably would have failed. Failure would have been death. And that's better than crying to death in the snow because I'm cold and I"m hurt and I don't have the ability to start a fire.
What it comes down to is a gamble. You stack the deck. You take advantage of the fact that your ancestors figured this stuff out, you can learn from their mistakes. In effect, you cheat. I carry a ferro rod on my keys, and a lighter in my pocket every day. The ferro rod is my first choice when I don't need a fire right away, to keep in practice and it's just fun. If I need a fire right now, I reach for the lighter, but I've had them fail. I have a spare lighter in my backpack, and between it and my pockets enough batteries and wire I should be able to get something to short. But the ferro rod doesn't mind being wet. It doesn't crap out at 10 below and gail force winds. (I also have a couple of large heat packs in the bag, and two body sized ones and a couple of little hand and foot sized in my coat during winter. I stack the deck. If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying to win.).
This is kind of the same thing as my opinion with fishing kits in 'get home bags'. While i think the notion of them is silly, the components for a fishing kit are pretty lightweight and small, and the line at very least has other practical purposes. So, for the weight, and for the cost, why not?
Conclusion from what was said in this thread so far.It is rather unlikely that fire will save your life. However, a lighter serves many other functions, is small, so it is a good idea to carry one nonetheless.It is very much depending on the environment, but for most people, a lighter is probably not an emergency essential.Alternative ways to start a fire are fun, but require a lot of practice. A lighter is much better and if you want backup you better have another lighter. That said, if you enjoy other methods of fire-starting there is really no argument against it.
In my case cause there's no fishing anywhere near?
Quote from: pomsbz on December 17, 2017, 05:35:08 PMIn my case cause there's no fishing anywhere near? Then you have to get really lost for it to be useful I guess?
Quote from: Vidar on December 17, 2017, 08:24:21 PMQuote from: pomsbz on December 17, 2017, 05:35:08 PMIn my case cause there's no fishing anywhere near? Then you have to get really lost for it to be useful I guess? I think that is one of the key points... The world is beautifully diverse.If you are doing alpine sports, its not a bad idea to a have an avalanche beacon and even a backpack with an avalanche airbag. Both are useless when you get lost in a forest. On the other hand, no lighter will help you if you get trapped in an glacier cleft but might save your life in a more forresty-environment.
my opinion with fishing kits
Quote from: Etherealicer on December 17, 2017, 09:49:45 PMQuote from: Vidar on December 17, 2017, 08:24:21 PMQuote from: pomsbz on December 17, 2017, 05:35:08 PMIn my case cause there's no fishing anywhere near? Then you have to get really lost for it to be useful I guess? I think that is one of the key points... The world is beautifully diverse.If you are doing alpine sports, its not a bad idea to a have an avalanche beacon and even a backpack with an avalanche airbag. Both are useless when you get lost in a forest. On the other hand, no lighter will help you if you get trapped in an glacier cleft but might save your life in a more forresty-environment.I think the single biggest threat to humans are other humans and their actions. Be it through unintended smurf happenings in traffic, more purposeful bad guys, or any of the various other ways we injure, hurt or kill each other. Can't really say I've come across anything that really helps in that regard. So in the bigger perspective lighter and fishing lines are just partial answers to tiny blimps on the potential problems chart - but also problems we might exercise a bit of control over. Actually, come to think of it, if you walk around in the right places with some great kit it will likely only get you mugged. Safer with nothing.
A safety west/personal light has the potential to reduce the chance getting run over by accident.
I have been thinking on this one a while, and, being back in Halifax has especially reminded me of the importance of fire.Since we are right on the ocean, everything is wet and even on relatively mild nights the dampness gets to you and you can get hypothermia even when it isn't freezing. Everyone always says that you dress for the cold, but here the longer you are outside the wetter you get and those layers of clothing start to work against you. Also, it is quite windy, which, coupled with the moisture can get very problematic very quickly. The best defense against the cold here is fire, and I firmly believe that each and every survival kit needs to have the ability to manufacture fire in a hurry, even if the wood is wet.Also, given that Nova Scotia is basically a hunk of rock (mostly granite) pushed up from the sea floor, cell signal is never reliable, and rescue can be many hours away. It makes more sense to build a fire and hunker down for the night rather than stumble around in the dark trying to get a signal, especially given the largely rocky and uneven terrain. That is pretty well a guarantee to find that broken ankle you were looking for. Over the Christmas break I read about a family in Detroit (I think) that was paddling the river and for some reason had an emergency that caused the husband and wife, 5 year old daughter and a family friend to seek refuse on one of the islands, and they were likely saved by fire. I don't usually paddle in the winter as the cold water is very unforgiving, but it's a safe bet they were cold and wet when they made landfall. Unfortunately due to bad weather, rescue aircraft were unable to reach them, and due to shallow water rescue boats were unable to reach them. As I recall, they spent more than a few hours on the island, and, because their survival kit had the ability to make fire, they were reasonably ok.Would they have died without fire? Probably not, but as the child was said to have mild hypothermia (I don't know how the hell that happened with three warm adults and a fire, but what the hell) it could have been a lot worse. Fire may not have saved their lives, but there's no doubt in my mind that it saved them from very unnecessary hardships. It's important to remember that they had cell signal, and were able to call for help, but help was not available for some time, despite being in or near a major center. If circumstances can keep help from reaching you for hours in a populated area, imagine how long it can take rescuers to get to your position in the vast wilderness of Canada. Some of the wilderness photos I post seem remote, but are mostly all within an hour or two's drive of a major center, and there's a long way to go to get to real remote areas of Canada. Given how small fire starting stuff is, I will take it each and every time. I may not need it, but I'd rather have it than not.Def
Fire is not something I use a lot in regular every day life but it sure is nice to have a couple different ways to make fire if it is ever needed Most fire making supplies these days take very little room up and weigh next to nothing If I am going in the woods at all I am taking more than a couple ways to make fire as well
Kinda makes me wonder what alternatives there are, to get you warm, aside from fire?- Thermos with hot tea (this is limited, but it is also readily available)- Heating packs (chemical reaction, with fuel that slowly burns or even electrical)- Thermal blanket (kinda requires that you are fairly warm to begin with)- Dry clothing (especially when paddling, having dry clothing available could be a life saver).Anything else?
QuoteKinda makes me wonder what alternatives there are, to get you warm, aside from fire?- Thermos with hot tea (this is limited, but it is also readily available)- Heating packs (chemical reaction, with fuel that slowly burns or even electrical)- Thermal blanket (kinda requires that you are fairly warm to begin with)- Dry clothing (especially when paddling, having dry clothing available could be a life saver).Anything else?It's not just falling in the water that is a concern- the evening mist and frequent rain can cause serious issues most of the year, except perhaps in the middle of summer.A thermos is a great idea, although I would like to swap the tea for hot chocolate if that's ok. Chemical heating packs don't work when they are wet, and the mist is more than enough to deactivate them. Trust me on this, I use them a lot!Thermal blanket is great for reflecting heat, so can help even more if you have a fire. Dry clothing is a great idea, except that in rain and mist (even forgetting the dump in cold water) everything gets wet sooner or later. If you are out overnight you would have to have a dry set of clothes to change into every 2-3 hours, moreso if it is raining.Without any of the above (or a fire) there's a good chance you will still be alive here the next morning, but you won't be very happy about it. Assuming you are rescued first thing in the morning, you'd probably be ok. If not, you may warm up a bit in the sun, but I'd guess your chances of survival without rescue or fire would decrease significantly every night you were out, and I feel like it would be a race as to whether you were killed by dehydration or hypothermia. I'd say that's the case at least 8 months of the year here.Def
Ok, here it comes... I have never been in an emergency, where I needed to make fire and the likelihood of me getting in such an emergency I would rate as zilch... I cannot even think of an emergency where I would need to make fire.Yet whenever I look around, every emergency kit (including mine, see attachment) has at least a dozend ways to start a fire. In addition to that, there is cotton balls, tinder and other flammable materials.So, anyone ever been in an emergency that required you to make a fire?What realistic scenario do you fear that would need you to make a fire?This is not a critique, more a personal curiosity.