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Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer 275

Hero Member Posts: 909
Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« on: January 12, 2018, 08:32:51 AM »
Hi folks.

Does anyone with a micrometer have a Pioneer and can do me a favour? I need the measurement of the thickness behind the edge on an Alox Pioneer blade. Specifically for use as a benchmark for my Lionsteel Roundhead that I'm sending to be reground into more of a slicer. I'd also be interested in the thickness behind the edge of a regular SAK blade for comparison.

Many thanks!



"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 4,676
Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2018, 09:10:08 AM »
Can do this once I get back home... inches or milimeter?


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Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,056 Ditchfinder General
Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2018, 09:14:07 AM »
I often see the phrase thickness behind the edge, and I have an idea what it means but what exactly does it refer to?  How far behind the edge do you measure?  Surely an angular measurement, similar to the primary grind angle) would be more descriptive, if harder to obtain.

Anyway... I have a Pioneer and a digital caliper (uncalibrated, shhh :whistle:) ...  Just at the top of the grind, where the ground edge meets the polished region is 0.35 - 0.37 mm
Hero Member Posts: 909
Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2018, 09:26:27 AM »
Can do this once I get back home... inches or milimeter?


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Either thanks!

I often see the phrase thickness behind the edge, and I have an idea what it means but what exactly does it refer to?  How far behind the edge do you measure?  Surely an angular measurement, similar to the primary grind angle) would be more descriptive, if harder to obtain.

Anyway... I have a Pioneer and a digital caliper (uncalibrated, shhh :whistle:) ...  Just at the top of the grind, where the ground edge meets the polished region is 0.35 - 0.37 mm

I think it means, or at least I'm referring to what you have measured. The blade at the point where it starts to form the edge grind. This video explains it well at about the 50 second mark.


"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
No Life Club Posts: 4,676
Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2018, 12:40:26 PM »
Just measured my pioneer blade... around 0.5mm at the tip to 0.6mm near the choil (if this is the correct term)...

On a 91mm blade, around 0.36mm at the tip... 0.46mm close to the choil...

Give or take a few on the numbers above... would need a microscope to be more accurate :lol:


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Hero Member Posts: 909
Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2018, 01:51:14 PM »
Just measured my pioneer blade... around 0.5mm at the tip to 0.6mm near the choil (if this is the correct term)...

On a 91mm blade, around 0.36mm at the tip... 0.46mm close to the choil...

Give or take a few on the numbers above... would need a microscope to be more accurate :lol:


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Thanks. I wonder why your results are so different to hiraethus? Just calibration or is there that much variation? Somewhat doubt that from the Swiss...

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,056 Ditchfinder General
Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 01:57:45 PM »
That's why I asked about how far from the edge you should measure.  Moving up the blade just a little will change the thickness measurement by a fairly large amount.
Hero Member Posts: 909
Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2018, 02:04:00 PM »
That's why I asked about how far from the edge you should measure.  Moving up the blade just a little will change the thickness measurement by a fairly large amount.

I should have been clearer. Here's a diagram.


"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,082 Firm believer of Sturgeon's Law
Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2018, 02:14:02 PM »
that picture says it perfectly.
BTE Thickness is the thickness at the point where the grind stops being totally perpendicular to the spine (that is, forms an angle different from 90% in relation to the spine)

of course, on a blade that is full flat grind the thickness of the spine is equal to the BTE Thickness

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Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2018, 02:25:37 PM »
that picture says it perfectly.
BTE Thickness is the thickness at the point where the grind stops being totally perpendicular to the spine (that is, forms an angle different from 90% in relation to the spine)

of course, on a blade that is full flat grind the thickness of the spine is equal to the BTE Thickness
A pity then that SAK blades are not full flat grinds.  :D

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No Life Club Posts: 4,676
Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2018, 02:32:35 PM »
That's why I asked about how far from the edge you should measure.  Moving up the blade just a little will change the thickness measurement by a fairly large amount.
+1... I did also said give or take a few off the measurements...  :cheers:


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Hero Member Posts: 909
Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2018, 03:14:08 PM »
So how about a third measurement from someone, I'll work out the average and send it to the guy.  :drink:

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson
Global Moderator Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,056 Ditchfinder General
Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2018, 07:43:27 AM »
That's why I asked about how far from the edge you should measure.  Moving up the blade just a little will change the thickness measurement by a fairly large amount.

I should have been clearer. Here's a diagram.

(Image removed from quote.)

Sorry, I was being a little obtuse.  What I was trying to get at is that 'thickness behind the edge' alone doesn't define the shape of the blade.  You need at least one other measurement - the angle of the main blade (primary?) grind, or the thickness and depth of the blade.  I've been trying to communicate engineering intent using 2D drawings for too long and have beaten my head against a brick wall too often.  Lack of (or worse, ambiguous) information on drawings is very frustrating. :ahhh
Hero Member Posts: 909
Re: Micrometer help with SAK/Pioneer
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2018, 05:20:11 PM »
That's why I asked about how far from the edge you should measure.  Moving up the blade just a little will change the thickness measurement by a fairly large amount.

I should have been clearer. Here's a diagram.

(Image removed from quote.)



Sorry, I was being a little obtuse.  What I was trying to get at is that 'thickness behind the edge' alone doesn't define the shape of the blade.  You need at least one other measurement - the angle of the main blade (primary?) grind, or the thickness and depth of the blade.  I've been trying to communicate engineering intent using 2D drawings for too long and have beaten my head against a brick wall too often.  Lack of (or worse, ambiguous) information on drawings is very frustrating. :ahhh

I was trying to point out the precise point of measurement indicated by the red arrows, immediately above the bevel. Does that answer the question? I get slightly confused beyond the concept of 1+1=2 (I'm an artist by profession!  :rofl:) but I would assume that despite the angle, given a constant, here a specific design of blade, if you indicate a precise point on that angle, the measurement should be a constant? Ignoring of course the accuracy and metal wear of any micrometer. :D

"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson

 

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