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Just about UK legal but not really suitable for carrying Spyderco UKPK

Offline Ukleathermanfan

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Any thing I can find online relates to the bread knife chap.
He case was it wasn't a lnife/offensive as it wasn't sharp.
Bbbarrister seems to refer to this.
This has no relation to the ricaso in our case.
I think people have taken this case and run with it.


pt Offline pfrsantos

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It seems you're assuming the cutting edge is the sharp bit and not the side of the blade that cuts as apposed to the other(top) half.
Do you have anything to support this?
No, the cutting edge is the side of the blade that cuts. I just drew a straight line from the tip of the blade to the ricasso, it was easier than to draw along the cutting edge. My point was just to show the length difference between the cutting edge and the blade length as it's considered here.

In an extreme example, if only the first 1cm of the blade from the tip was sharp , the blade length would still be the same (the full red line).

Hope this clarifies it.
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Offline Ukleathermanfan

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No, the cutting edge is the side of the blade that cuts. I just drew a straight line from the tip of the blade to the ricasso, it was easier than to draw along the cutting edge. My point was just to show the length difference between the cutting edge and the blade length as it's considered here.

In an extreme example, if only the first 1cm of the blade from the tip was sharp , the blade length would still be the same (the full red line).

Hope this clarifies it.
Sorry my replie was to the op


gb Offline chip

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I think making it the blade over cutting edge simplifies the issue. If I was to buy a very large folding knife and took a file to the edge blunting it all bar the first 3 inches could I evade prosecution. Common sense would tell you no. But the law can not be decided by common sense. That is what  the black belt barrister said it’s far easier to make clear difference between handle and blade. Than argue what is considered sharp

Which ironically is why I  would have thought the ukpk  should fall foul of the law because it is deliberately designed to be gripped partially on the blade  forward of the pivot making it more akin to a fixed blade in use than a traditional folder.

I would be more than happy with the law stating blade rather than cutting edge as I beleive the law is built around preventing people  stabbing each other to death. And I don’t know if the 3” was based on any medical input that 3” stab wounds are x% less likely to result in death than 4” or if it was an arbitrary figure plucked from the sky.

And like I said earlier a 6inck blade with a 3 inch sharpened edged will go in 6” not 3” .
And to be fair I have never needed more than 2 1/2 inches. :whistle:

« Last Edit: March 20, 2024, 07:46:42 PM by chip »
My trouble is i never show initiative, but that's only because no one has told me to.


Offline Ukleathermanfan

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Bbbarrister was talking nonsense on this point.
Of course a court can decide on whether something is sharp or not.
They decide wether drugs are drugs, a pit bull a pit bull, a firearm a firearm.
A pocketknife would be no different.


gb Offline chip

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So they get out one of those bess thingy majigs and take a reading.

Again I believe the laws are there for a common good to legislate against the deliberate use of knives as weapons , what do you have against the law settling on blade ather than cutting edge. What if I added an extra15mm to allow for the tang.

The ukpk is an exceptionally capable uk carry that falls inside of the law even using the blade over cutting edge  (and I don’t think that was by accident) so I really don’t see what the issue is.
My trouble is i never show initiative, but that's only because no one has told me to.


Offline Ukleathermanfan

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So they get out one of those bess thingy majigs and take a reading.

Again I believe the laws are there for a common good to legislate against the deliberate use of knives as weapons , what do you have against the law settling on blade ather than cutting edge. What if I added an extra15mm to allow for the tang.

The ukpk is an exceptionally capable uk carry that falls inside of the law even using the blade over cutting edge  (and I don’t think that was by accident) so I really don’t see what the issue is.
Not sure if you're asking me?
I have nothing against either I'd just like to know the law.
And more importantly know the law knows the law :D


gb Offline chip

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My advice as an internet numpty with absolutely no legal training whatsoever  is keep the blade under 3”

And in the whole legal chain of events the only real stage ithat can show discretion is plod.
So if you ever find yourself accidentally  on the wrong side of the law  be polite courteous and accept you are in the wrong and more often than not you will get the best possible outcome as opposed to being a dick where you could end up restrained at the wrists and ankles and carried to the police van like a roll of old carpet. 😂
My trouble is i never show initiative, but that's only because no one has told me to.


gb Offline greenbear

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I think making it the blade over cutting edge simplifies the issue. If I was to buy a very large folding knife and took a file to the edge blunting it all bar the first 3 inches could I evade prosecution. Common sense would tell you no. But the law can not be decided by common sense. That is what  the black belt barrister said it’s far easier to make clear difference between handle and blade. Than argue what is considered sharp

Which ironically is why I  would have thought the ukpk  should fall foul of the law because it is deliberately designed to be gripped partially on the blade  forward of the pivot making it more akin to a fixed blade in use than a traditional folder.


I agree with you on this. This is especially poignant in the Spyderco's Roadie has a shorter cutting edge to specifically meet this requirement. So within the same manufacturer you have it presented in two different ways.


gb Offline greenbear

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Bbbarrister was talking nonsense on this point.
Of course a court can decide on whether something is sharp or not.
They decide wether drugs are drugs, a pit bull a pit bull, a firearm a firearm.
A pocketknife would be no different.

I wouldn't say Daniel Shen Smith was talking nonsense. His job as a Barrister is to interpret the law, the Judge's job is, of course, make a judgement on that interpretation.  There have been some very surprising verdicts over the years on all manner of issues that an outsider would have thought was a cut and dried issue. If the Police arrest you for have an over length blade that is only the start of the discussion. In addition it also has an element of use.  A Victoinox SD will get you into a load of trouble if you are caught with it in a pub or nightclub, but give a man shotgun and open fields and a 12" hunting knife meets the requirements.


gb Offline greenbear

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My advice as an internet numpty with absolutely no legal training whatsoever  is keep the blade under 3”

And in the whole legal chain of events the only real stage ithat can show discretion is plod.
So if you ever find yourself accidentally  on the wrong side of the law  be polite courteous and accept you are in the wrong and more often than not you will get the best possible outcome as opposed to being a dick where you could end up restrained at the wrists and ankles and carried to the police van like a roll of old carpet. 😂

Agree - wise words.


Offline Ukleathermanfan

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Agree - wise words.
Can you explain given the examples why he wasn't talking nonsense?
There is no law that states you can't take a Vic sd into a club. This is an urban myth.


gb Offline chip

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 :climber:
Can you explain given the examples why he wasn't talking nonsense?
There is no law that states you can't take a Vic sd into a club. This is an urban myth.

There is also no law that you can’t wear trainers to a club either, but doesn’t stop some clubs from not letting you in if you are wearing them.

If a door man finds you in possession of a pen knife he might  offer you the option of handing it over.

But you are right you would not be breaking the law .
I am a bit long in the tooth for clubs but regularly have my pocket knife on me when out in pubs and restaurants and even recently used my c2 while in a pub.

Now if the landlord saw this and asked me to leave they have every right to do so , and if I refused they could call the police to remove me.
My trouble is i never show initiative, but that's only because no one has told me to.


Offline Ukleathermanfan

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That's not what the poster said.
He said as Vic sd will get you into a load of trouble if caught with it in a club.
That's not true is it?


gb Offline chip

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In your previous post I thought you implied I said it becease you  replied to a post someone said in reply to one of my posts.
But despite agreeing it’s  not the law.
I understand why any proprietor of any establishment would not allow any knives because they themselves can be held responsible for what goes on in their establishment and as such face sanctions. And even good people can make bad decisions once they have had one too many.
My trouble is i never show initiative, but that's only because no one has told me to.


 

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