Some Interesting Facts about Alox

[jaya_man]

Found this and thought about shariing it here... Enjoy reading:

https://www.victorinox.com/global/en/Explore/Inspiration/Swissness-%26-Heritage/Did-you-know/cms/didyouknow


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[jazzbass]

From Jaya's link:

Smooth Alox scales
We all know and love the Alox scales with their trademark ribbed finish and bright colors. But in the 1990s, Victorinox released a 91mm Alox Officers knife with blue scales exclusively for the Dutch Army. This was actually the only 91 mm Officers knife ever released with Alox scales and even more unusual, the scales themselves were completely smooth. Soon we found that they scratched and marked quicker than the traditional ribbed Alox scales, so production of these knives was discontinued. Today they are quite a collector’s item.

Wow. This is a weird factoid, because a lot of is it fairly inaccurate or misleading.

- Most of the alox Dutch Air Force Knives were made in the 60s and 70s, not the 90s. The WERE making Dutch Airforce knives in the 90s but all the ones I've ever seen (including one in my collection) are just a standard Master Craftsman with blue celidor scales stamped "KLU EIGENDOM". That said the picture next to the blurb is an alox Dutch Air Force Master Craftsman with typical tools from the 90s, so who knows?

- This was not the first 91mm alox knife made. I've seen 91mm alox knives from the early 50s. They sell for a LOT of money. Pre-1940 models pop up too, but whether they're anodized aluminum (i.e. alox) or just regular aluminum I can't say. But I see a couple old 91mm Huntsmans from the 30s sell on eBay.

- They discontinued them because they discovered the smooth alox scratches easily? Seriously? Victorinox has made knives with smooth alox handles from at least the late 1930s (in the 84mm Pocket Pal/Secretary line) and from the 1960s-1980s with the smooth alox 84mm advertising knives. I think its safe to assume they knew how easily they scratched well before 1990.

I wonder sometimes how much the marketing folks at Victorinox know about the history of their own knives. Haven't they spent the last 10 years pouring over tens of thousands of pictures of old knives, making notes, categorizing them, and answering obscure dating questions on web forums? I mean, c'mon now...

[zrxoa1]

Hmmm, that looks familiar??


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[jaya_man]

One thing is definitely true though, it takes them a long time to release new models... 60 years from prototyping to the release of the PX... :lol:


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[Gath]

One thing is definitely true though, it takes them a long time to release new models... 60 years from prototyping to the release of the PX... :lol:


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But hey, the first people they tried to sell it to didn't like it so why bother? but seriously speaking it probably wouldn't have been that good a seller, and unique parts were more of a production hurdle back then. They also had many civilian models with scissors already. So to not cannibalize that market with a lower sales margin item it would have to be priced higher, which means low sales which means high  fixed costs.

[jaya_man]

One thing is definitely true though, it takes them a long time to release new models... 60 years from prototyping to the release of the PX... :lol:


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But hey, the first people they tried to sell it to didn't like it so why bother? but seriously speaking it probably wouldn't have been that good a seller, and unique parts were more of a production hurdle back then. They also had many civilian models with scissors already. So to not cannibalize that market with a lower sales margin item it would have to be priced higher, which means low sales which means high  fixed costs.

Agree... But they have to also factor changing market demands... how many years have loyal customers been asking for scissors on 93mm and 84mm... just my opinion...


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[ThundahBeagle]

Far be it from me to be able to argue any of these facts, as some of you are capable of doing.

However, two other things struck me as well...

1) To say the cross represents strength and positivity, while not entirely incorrect, completely glosses over what a cross has ever traditionally stood for, including on a shield or any coat of arms, for the last two thousand years or at least since the Crusades. Not trying to get religious, as I am not deeply religious myself, but we are talking about history here and it should be represented correctly...or it is just revisionist history.

2) Heidi. 'Ello, luv!

[Singh]

jaya_man, thanks for posting the link. 

To everyone else:  I see this as fun, so there's no need to pick it apart. Just enjoy the pictures. 

[Gath]

One thing is definitely true though, it takes them a long time to release new models... 60 years from prototyping to the release of the PX... :lol:


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But hey, the first people they tried to sell it to didn't like it so why bother? but seriously speaking it probably wouldn't have been that good a seller, and unique parts were more of a production hurdle back then. They also had many civilian models with scissors already. So to not cannibalize that market with a lower sales margin item it would have to be priced higher, which means low sales which means high  fixed costs.

Agree... But they have to also factor changing market demands... how many years have loyal customers been asking for scissors on 93mm and 84mm... just my opinion...


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Though on the bright side we can buy scissors 93mm now, instead of seeing them on the list of discontinued models like 84mm.

[pomsbz]

Far be it from me to be able to argue any of these facts, as some of you are capable of doing.

However, two other things struck me as well...

1) To say the cross represents strength and positivity, while not entirely incorrect, completely glosses over what a cross has ever traditionally stood for, including on a shield or any coat of arms, for the last two thousand years or at least since the Crusades. Not trying to get religious, as I am not deeply religious myself, but we are talking about history here and it should be represented correctly...or it is just revisionist history.

2) Heidi. 'Ello, luv!

I did look into this actually. The Swiss cross as represented on the current flag isn't a religious symbol.

[ThundahBeagle]

Far be it from me to be able to argue any of these facts, as some of you are capable of doing.

However, two other things struck me as well...

1) To say the cross represents strength and positivity, while not entirely incorrect, completely glosses over what a cross has ever traditionally stood for, including on a shield or any coat of arms, for the last two thousand years or at least since the Crusades. Not trying to get religious, as I am not deeply religious myself, but we are talking about history here and it should be represented correctly...or it is just revisionist history.

2) Heidi. 'Ello, luv!

I did look into this actually. The Swiss cross as represented on the current flag isn't a religious symbol.

W-what?

I guess I could look it up, but I may as well ask...what does it represent then?

[ThundahBeagle]

Far be it from me to be able to argue any of these facts, as some of you are capable of doing.

However, two other things struck me as well...

1) To say the cross represents strength and positivity, while not entirely incorrect, completely glosses over what a cross has ever traditionally stood for, including on a shield or any coat of arms, for the last two thousand years or at least since the Crusades. Not trying to get religious, as I am not deeply religious myself, but we are talking about history here and it should be represented correctly...or it is just revisionist history.

2) Heidi. 'Ello, luv!

I did look into this actually. The Swiss cross as represented on the current flag isn't a religious symbol.

Does it not evolve from either the Holy Roman Empire, the Theban Legion, or the Arma Christi? And were the colors not such chosen so as to delineate Swiss confederates versus two other groups of religious soldiers on the same battleground? Those flying St.Andrew's cross and another, which I forget?

If I'm all wet on this, let me know.

Anyway, I only meant it as a small point, I think a teenager today, reading what Vic released there, is getting revisionist history and starting from there.

Not trying to make this a religious thing, btw, just looking at if from historical perspective. So, no offense to anyone.

[ThundahBeagle]

Pomz, please let me know what you know. I'm drawing on memory and have been out of school 30 years, so...

[pomsbz]

I think it would be more sensible to refer to the Swiss on this one but although the cross was a religious symbol originally, it was not used on the flag as such when the flag was decided on a century and a half ago. It was chosen as a historical symbol of Switzerland entirely. As such I don't think that the Victorinox statement is incorrect or revisionist.

To give an example, the stars on the US flag represent the states if I am not mistaken? Someone might say that it is revisionist, stars represent the heavenly bodies, how could anyone define them otherwise? I think the truth is that symbology is defined by those who use them and not by their historical or religious usage.  Reference the use of the swastika by the Finnish military.

I've got to run to work or I'd reference other examples.....

[ThundahBeagle]

I think it would be more sensible to refer to the Swiss on this one but although the cross was a religious symbol originally, it was not used on the flag as such when the flag was decided on a century and a half ago. It was chosen as a historical symbol of Switzerland entirely. As such I don't think that the Victorinox statement is incorrect or revisionist.

To give an example, the stars on the US flag represent the states if I am not mistaken? Someone might say that it is revisionist, stars represent the heavenly bodies, how could anyone define them otherwise? I think the truth is that symbology is defined by those who use them and not by their historical or religious usage.  Reference the use of the swastika by the Finnish military.

I've got to run to work or I'd reference other examples.....

But...but...in the US, our states ARE celestial bodies here Pomz! Ha ha.

Seriously though. Thanks for that perspective. Although...the Finnish military and Nazis used a symbol that, before the 1930's really was a symbol of positivity (well-being and the sun, if spun the opposite direction) from India to Europe, ancient Greece and Rome, even in ancient Hebrew temples, if I am not mistaken. It was in point of fact used in Finland since before Christianity was even established. That's partly why the Finns use it. It has deep meaning to the region in a historical and ancient shaman context.

To ignore that history and pre-history is to ignore why that symbol was chosen to be used as a symbol going forward. Certainly not in Europe a hundred and fifty years ago, a cross was not chosen merely for its "positivity."

And Hitler's use of the swastika was a perversion of the symbol. It's well known he was into the religious and occult. To me, that proves that symbols (and words) DO have meaning, even if one person or group chooses to try to change that meaning, such a change will be short lived, in long term historical context. Symbology usually does not belong to those who pervert long standing applications of those symbols, try though they may

[ThundahBeagle]

On another US flag note, the stars do represent the individual states, but the stripes actually represent the 13 original colonies. The day someone says that the stars represent something else, is the day someone is selling something. It just won't be true. As if someone might say, if we ever took on two more states a hundred years from now, and someone suddenly tried to say that each star represents a week in the year. It just isn't so.

So, anyone who chooses to use the American flag in their symbolism, or derrives their symbols from parts of ours, stars are still representative of the states, whatever they may say

[Ron Who]

In the western world, the cross is a symbol of Christianity. Victorinox may claim otherwise, but they cannot deny over 1000 years of culture.

[ThundahBeagle]

In the western world, the cross is a symbol of Christianity. Victorinox may claim otherwise, but they cannot deny over 1000 years of culture.

Thank you Ron. This is correct. And the Swiss fought under similar such flags for centuries. And the Swiss government who decided on the current flag did so knowingly, as did Victorinox.

It has been predominantly Christian / Catholic since Roman times like so much of Europe. Switzerland  ha no official religion, but the individual districts actually do, and if I am not wrong, Karl Elsener was something like governor of one of those districts.

The flag of Switzerland is a couped cross for  a reason. How does one ignore that completely?

So, if the cross is purely "positivity"' then why do we have the American Red Cross relief association and the Muslim world has instead the Red Crescent? Obviously it is a religious based relief program, and the Muslim one - correctly and obviously reflects their own religious beliefs, as it should.

I don't expect Vic to give us a lesson on religion, or the crusades, or the historic  fighting between its cantons here, but when they say the cross was chosen for "positivity" that's pure smoke and mirrors. So, what will they say the American flag stands for when it is printed on the scales? When people of authority on a subject just make stuff up or skirt around an issue, the folks that come after become misguided and ill informed. And this is a blatant lie, so as not to offend some small amount of people who are intolerant enough that they can't read the truth about something that happened a hundred and fifty years ago when certain sensibilities prevailed.

[twiliter]

In the western world, the cross is a symbol of Christianity. Victorinox may claim otherwise, but they cannot deny over 1000 years of culture.

This, but probably more like 2000 years.

There's a reason they use the V shield in some markets. 

[pomsbz]

To be honest the choice of the Swiss national symbol on the Victorinox knives was almost certainly nationalistic, especially when tied with the army contract. Regardless of the flags own historical associations.

[Don Pablo]

To be honest the choice of the Swiss national symbol on the Victorinox knives was almost certainly nationalistic, especially when tied with the army. Regardless of the flags own historical associations.

+1 when you consider that Victorinox started off making SAKs for the army.

[twiliter]

What the cross represents is entirely up to you, but many flags use it and it's roots are a historical fact with provenance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_flags_depicting_a_cross

The Star of David also represents something, but if it means something different to a marginal amount of people, it doesn't mean that it's history is magically erased. 

[ulli]

...maybe thats the reason why victorinox doesn`t answer questions on this forum or others because some take those infos too serious, like those at victorinox are the absolut experts and everything they say or write is perfect and absolutely correct. The people working there and putting infos together are just regular guys who want to know their own history better and sharing the infos with the community. Until some years, victorinox didn`t care much about their history and identity. So they don`t have much infos on tool or knife evolution.

"Strenght and positivity" don`t mean that has nothing to do with christianity. Religious people would maybe consider those attributes as absolutly christian.

[Don Pablo]

...maybe thats the reason why victorinox doesn`t answer questions on this forum or others because some take those infos too serious, like those at victorinox are the absolut experts and everything they say or write is perfect and absolutely correct. The people working there and putting infos together are just regular guys who want to know their own history better and sharing the infos with the community. Until some years, victorinox didn`t care much about their history and identity. So they don`t have much infos on tool or knife evolution.

"Strenght and positivity" don`t mean that has nothing to do with christianity. Religious people would maybe consider those attributes as absolutly christian.

Sounds like a very good point. 

[pomsbz]

What the cross represents is entirely up to you, but many flags use it and it's roots are a historical fact with provenance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_flags_depicting_a_cross

The Star of David also represents something, but if it means something different to a marginal amount of people, it doesn't mean that it's history is magically erased. 

Nope but it doesn't necessarily mean that it is relevant either. If the choice of Victorinox was to use their countries national emblem to describe Swiss values described at positivity and strength then that is valid even if the historical symbolism behind the flag may have been different. The British flag also contains a cross but I doubt the use of the flag to show 'British made' has had any religious significance for centuries, The British flag when associated with a product usually meant (in the good old days) 'quality, engineering greatness, craftman built, etc'. Nowadays it means 'cheap junk made in China for tourists'  . To determine that the Victorinox original use of their countries flag specifically had a religious connotation or message and describe their own statement denying this as revisionist requires more proof methinks.

I'd love to hear from the Swiss though on the subject. We're all rather guessing at this point. My brother in law is Swiss (born, bred and lives in Zurich) and when I asked him about this denied that the Swiss flag is considered to have any religious significant or connotation by the Swiss. Just one local opinion though.   

Incidentally has anyone else noticed that google refuses to accept the existence or spelling of the word 'positivity'?

[twiliter]

What the cross represents is entirely up to you, but many flags use it and it's roots are a historical fact with provenance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_flags_depicting_a_cross

The Star of David also represents something, but if it means something different to a marginal amount of people, it doesn't mean that it's history is magically erased. 

Nope but it doesn't necessarily mean that it is relevant either.

Relevance is notoriously subjective. The history of crosses on flags and why they are there is as relevant as you want, it's just history.

If the choice of Victorinox was to use their countries national emblem to describe Swiss values described at positivity and strength then that is valid...

They can describe it any way they want obviously, it's up to the reader to determine the validity. It's opinion if you ask me, the Vic shield based on the Swiss flag has layers of meaning that cannot be detached just because the history is either ignored or not within their body of knowledge.

To determine that the Victorinox original use of their countries flag specifically had a religious connotation or message and describe their own statement denying this as revisionist requires more proof methinks.

I don't think it's revisionist at all, it's just someone's version that leaves some things out. The cross is a culturally embedded symbol worldwide that represents something specific, recognizable, and generally agreed upon. There just isn't any way to separate out the cross from the Swiss flag or the Vic shield and say it represents nothing or something else entirely. The cross is what it is, and it it has layers of meaning, some more obvious and agreed upon than others. Like I said, you can personally have it mean whatever you want it to, in fact, I can say the cross represents the intersection down the street, but I would have a tough time getting people on board with that.

Cheers Ben, enjoying your thoughts on this!

[ThundahBeagle]

Enjoying reading replies as well, agree or not.

Bear in mind, Vic COULD have simply said they put that symbol on the knife as  a matter of national identity of a well- made Swiss product, and still not had to have mentioned the religious meaning behind the flag. Instead, they had to politically correctly BS the reader.

Whoever mentioned the V symbol being used in some markets, +1

[pomsbz]

What the cross represents is entirely up to you, but many flags use it and it's roots are a historical fact with provenance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_flags_depicting_a_cross

The Star of David also represents something, but if it means something different to a marginal amount of people, it doesn't mean that it's history is magically erased. 

Nope but it doesn't necessarily mean that it is relevant either.

Relevance is notoriously subjective. The history of crosses on flags and why they are there is as relevant as you want, it's just history.

If the choice of Victorinox was to use their countries national emblem to describe Swiss values described at positivity and strength then that is valid...

They can describe it any way they want obviously, it's up to the reader to determine the validity. It's opinion if you ask me, the Vic shield based on the Swiss flag has layers of meaning that cannot be detached just because the history is either ignored or not within their body of knowledge.

To determine that the Victorinox original use of their countries flag specifically had a religious connotation or message and describe their own statement denying this as revisionist requires more proof methinks.

I don't think it's revisionist at all, it's just someone's version that leaves some things out. The cross is a culturally embedded symbol worldwide that represents something specific, recognizable, and generally agreed upon. There just isn't any way to separate out the cross from the Swiss flag or the Vic shield and say it represents nothing or something else entirely. The cross is what it is, and it it has layers of meaning, some more obvious and agreed upon than others. Like I said, you can personally have it mean whatever you want it to, in fact, I can say the cross represents the intersection down the street, but I would have a tough time getting people on board with that.

Cheers Ben, enjoying your thoughts on this!

I think the correct solution to this is the following: MTO sends a deputation to Switzerland (all expenses paid) to look into the matter in great depth. I'll volunteer of course and to show objectivity I think that you should join me. To round out this purely academic pursuit (we will NOT be visiting the beautiful scenery or eating the incredible Swiss sausage, neither will we be spending considerable amounts of time in the Victorinox factory being pampered by management and given freebies!), I think we should be joined by others who only have the pursuit of truth at heart. Names that spring to mind are ThundahBeagle, Ron Who, Ulli and Professor Pabs (who is also incidentally the Dalai Lama thereby providing automatic good will).

Anyone object? Good. When do we book the tickets?

Results of our in depth study will be posted up as soon as we're all sober. This may take a while.

[twiliter]

Count me in! 

I may never come home though... 

[Don Pablo]

Sounds very interesting.