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It is always worth asking. 1148

Zombie Apprentice Posts: 12,354
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2018, 10:00:13 PM »


It's always worth asking :rofl:

You asked to give stuff to me though, I may have identified the flaw in your technique for getting free stuff. :rofl:


I meant that I can ask the guy for some folders to send to you :D

Buy now or regret later
No Life Club Posts: 3,393
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2018, 10:07:12 PM »
I don't like buying display models myself, but:

The backspring in a Vic never reaches the critical zone for the steel when opening it. (Not sure what it called in English, you're always within the elastic zone => the steel goes 100% back to its original shape.) Which brings us to the next point, the central part of material fatigue when you keep within the elastic zone is the number of load cycles. In other words, the number of times the knife has been opened is more important than how long it has been in the stressed position. (Think of the discussion among gun owners of whether to store magazines full or empty to keep the spring for a long time, if there really was a clear, straightforward difference, I doubt the discussion would have gone on the way it has.)

The part about spring tolerance is from Vic, the part about loading cycles is basic materials science I learnt from a metalurgist.
No Life Club Posts: 4,545
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2018, 10:07:28 PM »
Oh I just remembered, my own EDC Spirit is actually a display model as is the one I bought for my brother, and those at least haven't loosened, in fact you still really can't lift the Phillips with your nail, a common feature in new Spirits.

Maybe that's because a Spirit has no backsprings ...  :pok:

 ;)
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 12,354
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2018, 10:15:02 PM »
Oh I just remembered, my own EDC Spirit is actually a display model as is the one I bought for my brother, and those at least haven't loosened, in fact you still really can't lift the Phillips with your nail, a common feature in new Spirits.

Maybe that's because a Spirit has no backsprings ...  :pok:

 ;)
It does!

Buy now or regret later
Sr. Member Posts: 297
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2018, 10:31:00 PM »
Thanks for the info Steinar, I vaguely remembered something like that, but I really don't know enough about metallurgy or springs specifically to be sure.

All that makes sense though, and my experience with the Spirit seems to support the hypothesis.
Furthermore placing them I never felt a particularly high pressure, and if I did they corrected themselves by snapping another tool on the blade closed, which resulted in only about five cuts during the placing, the tools end up dangling pretty loosely actually, none of the blades are placed so that the spring would be at the part of the cycle it is most strained.

Oh, and I think we'll have to pardon Top-Gear-24 the brilliant simplicity of the Spirit spring is easily dismissed as some kind of design magic.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 10:35:43 PM by Gath »
No Life Club Posts: 2,812
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2018, 11:02:32 PM »
I got some Wenger stuff a few years ago, from the main dealer, when Wenger stopped making SAKs, by asking nicely and buying a few things.

Seriously I would love to know what you got from the main dealer  :drool: :drool:
Are there any past threads I can view??

I don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is right.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 8,215
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2018, 11:06:01 PM »
I don't like buying display models myself, but:

The backspring in a Vic never reaches the critical zone for the steel when opening it. (Not sure what it called in English, you're always within the elastic zone => the steel goes 100% back to its original shape.) Which brings us to the next point, the central part of material fatigue when you keep within the elastic zone is the number of load cycles. In other words, the number of times the knife has been opened is more important than how long it has been in the stressed position. (Think of the discussion among gun owners of whether to store magazines full or empty to keep the spring for a long time, if there really was a clear, straightforward difference, I doubt the discussion would have gone on the way it has.)

The part about spring tolerance is from Vic, the part about loading cycles is basic materials science I learnt from a metalurgist.

But but but...

I just love opening and closing the tools  :facepalm:

“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain
Sr. Member Posts: 297
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2018, 11:20:00 PM »
I got some Wenger stuff a few years ago, from the main dealer, when Wenger stopped making SAKs, by asking nicely and buying a few things.

Seriously I would love to know what you got from the main dealer  :drool: :drool:
Are there any past threads I can view??

Yeah, that's sure intriguing and at bleeding to a second page and over 500 views I think my merch got enough attention already.
No Life Club Posts: 4,545
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2018, 11:24:12 PM »
Thanks for the info Steinar, I vaguely remembered something like that, but I really don't know enough about metallurgy or springs specifically to be sure.

All that makes sense though, and my experience with the Spirit seems to support the hypothesis.
Furthermore placing them I never felt a particularly high pressure, and if I did they corrected themselves by snapping another tool on the blade closed, which resulted in only about five cuts during the placing, the tools end up dangling pretty loosely actually, none of the blades are placed so that the spring would be at the part of the cycle it is most strained.

Oh, and I think we'll have to pardon Top-Gear-24 the brilliant simplicity of the Spirit spring is easily dismissed as some kind of design magic.

Take a Spirit and any other SAK, open the blade on both and then close them ...  is the snap the same on both tools ? 

On my SAK the blade closses on itself when it's about 45° closed, the butterblade on my Spirit on the other hand only snaps when the tip of the butterblade is about to enter the handles.  And just to make sure I checked this on all of my Spirits (three regular Spirits with butterblade, one BO Spirit with the normal blade, and one Road Tour Spirit with the normal blade).  So maybe all of my Spirits are flawed ...  :think:

The springs on a regular SAK are there to keep the tool from closing on you during use, since they don't have a locking mechanism they just wouldn't stay open without them, so they have a spring.  The things on the Spirit that you call springs are part of the locking mechanism, they do not need to build up tension in any way, they just need to lift up so the tools can lock, and while they lift up they do build up a bit of tension, but nothing close to the tension on the backsprings of a SAK.

Oh I just remembered, my own EDC Spirit is actually a display model as is the one I bought for my brother, and those at least haven't loosened, in fact you still really can't lift the Phillips with your nail, a common feature in new Spirits.

Maybe that's because a Spirit has no backsprings ...  :pok:

 ;)
It does!

Well they don't have actual backsprings either.
Just the springed "fingers"

Make up your mind Nick ...  :pok:

Global Moderator Point Of No Return Posts: 37,595
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2018, 11:42:36 PM »
The things on the Spirit that you call springs are part of the locking mechanism, they do not need to build up tension in any way, they just need to lift up so the tools can lock, and while they lift up they do build up a bit of tension, but nothing close to the tension on the backsprings of a SAK.

I disagree, they do need to maintain tool tension and are separate from the lock spring which is under them.

Should we be comparing the Spirit to the wearing of SAK springs - I don't think so.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,490 motionless wheel, nothing is real
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2018, 01:13:58 AM »
The back springs on all SwissTools are there to keep the tools closed, not open, the locks (separate devices) keep them open. They also provide enough tension to keep the tools from flopping open, or closed when the lock is released. The springs are divided to keep the tools from clumping as each tool has a separate part of the spring keeping closed tension while it's neighbor is deployed. I think it's pretty ingenious.  :)

But what Z Man said too, a little off track...  :D
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 01:15:17 AM by twiliter »
Sr. Member Posts: 297
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2018, 11:17:26 AM »
Though if the claim from Victorinox that Steinar posted, that the springs always remain in the elastic zone is true it could be relevant, as looked in from the metallurgy angle the effect in SAKs should be equivalent.

But anyway, weren't we requesting some sweet Wenger Merch pics from DKS? Other merch pics are naturally welcome as well.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,782 aka "G-Fiddle" and "Glen-Fizzle"
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2018, 11:23:04 AM »
Some very nice displays awll!  :like:

[--- arms length ---] (-.-) 

                                ^-- where the cat sits
Global Moderator Point Of No Return Posts: 37,595
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2018, 11:42:21 AM »
Though if the claim from Victorinox that Steinar posted, that the springs always remain in the elastic zone is true it could be relevant, as looked in from the metallurgy angle the effect in SAKs should be equivalent.

Half opening one tool might leave it in the zone but half opening two or three tools across one spring...
And then consider the constant load on the pin stock...
Either way, collecting or using, unless the spring breaks then it really doesn't matter.
Sr. Member Posts: 297
Re: It is always worth asking.
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2018, 12:07:35 PM »
As I said before, the way you open them only partway means that if you open one too much the other blades slam shut, as some of my fingers can testify.

They're all opened in hand  to the fan position, the magnets just hold them to the steel, the tools are all freely in that position.




 

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