Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?

[ThundahBeagle]

Answer me this. We'll take another brand for instance, same idea, but for some reason the heat is on Leatherman... When was the last time Victorinox came out with a plier based multitool? Do they need to reinvent the wheel (tool)? Or have they nailed it in form and function?

Or, do you need a belt buckle multitool?

That is a main reason I'm not in to swisstool. It was good "back in the day" and the only pssible competition to LM. But now they are in the same boat as LM regarding tools, luckily for Victorinox they are living off their pocket knives which they are constantly developing.

Answering your question, at the moment I would take SOG or Gerber over swisstool purely for the usability and convenience and new ideas. If I was looking for my first multitool I would be 50/50 between SOG, Leatherman and new Gerber...

And commenting on your sarcasm, I think belt buckle tool is much better idea than Thruster, Rail or Juice CS3.

Wait, what?! There's a belt buckle tool?

Who's producing that and where do I get one?

SOG sync series. Should be elavailable everywhere 

Thanks Kaput. How very Klingonese.

[ThundahBeagle]

I tend not to like the newer offerings as much as I like the classics, but I just don't see how one asks if Leatherman has forsaken us when they *JUST* released a bunch of tools and variants that many on this very site have been suggesting for years. THAT'S forsaking us?

Moving on? Maybe to a new Surge or maybe a Signal. I may even get a Wingman: the one I gave to my brother for Christmas seemed pretty good for the money.

[kaput]

Not sure what you mean? Just meant that they're widely available for purchase. 

[SteveC]

Having just completed the 30 day Spirit challenge for me it has nothing on the Rebar.

They both have there pluses and minuses .

Haven't read the challenge thread yet, which one did you get?

The BO  S model

I got it used , the pliers have a bit of play in them but I like it overall.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

What a looker.      

 

[shark_za]

This is so funny its actually ridiculous.

On the entire market there are no better Multitools than the Rebar/ST300 or Wave/Surge; depending if you like inside tools or one hand opening.
Choose inside or outside, choose medium or large. All have replaceable cutters now, a state of total dominance has just been achieved.

Boom! Leatherman total perfection. 

[ReamerPunch]

they have been mached by SOG...

 

Wait... are you serious?

How many UTTER failures have we seen from SOG in the last... what? FIVE years? You're betting on the new line of stuff to not suck, when it is, at this moment, vaporware. And even once it's out in the field, SOG has failed from design to manufacture.

Now, I am completely HOPING for a hit with the Powerpint. It's a niche I feel has opportunity, and the design looks promising.

But saying SOG has beat Leatherman is... optimistic at best.

I was about to post the exact same thing. SOG is miles behind Leatherman, in my eyes.

[ReamerPunch]

I think the Wave is part of the problem. It's just too good. LM released the Signal, and everyone bashed it for being no better than the Wave. And let's be honest, is the Wave not the standard newer multi-tools are compared to? Well, butterfly pliers mostly.
Still, the need for innovation does not take away from the proven designs we can enjoy today. I love my Rebar, and am happy with the design. I modded scissors in it, and it's even better. I might even transplant a Wingman package opener in there.

Many wanted the Rebar head in there, and indeed many have proceeded to mod their own upgraded Wave/Charge. It would be nice if it was a production model, readily available, instead of buying a Wave and seeking a donor plierhead.
Even so, there are ways to customize your MT to fit your needs better.

This might help the requests for "no can opener, I never use it", or "I want the S30V blade in a Wave."
Think about it. Syph offers your SAK just like you want it, with superb construction.
Instead of MT manufacturers trying to please the majority with one model, why not offer everyone the option to pick and choose their features in the frame they want.
I want a Micra with Squirt pliers, and no tweezers.
A juice with PE blade, scissors, saw, file.
A Charge with Rebar head, awl, and evil's scissors instead of SE blade.

I agree with the concerns about how the cutters were implemented on the new Waves/Charges. I was expecting the Rebar head. But I won't pout too much, because I already have a Rebar head, and I love it.

[EZrider]

This is so funny its actually ridiculous.

On the entire market there are no better Multitools than the Rebar/ST300 or Wave/Surge; depending if you like inside tools or one hand opening.
Choose inside or outside, choose medium or large. All have replaceable cutters now, a state of total dominance has just been achieved.

Boom! Leatherman total perfection.

Exactly this.

 

[EZrider]

I tend not to like the newer offerings as much as I like the classics, but I just don't see how one asks if Leatherman has forsaken us when they *JUST* released a bunch of tools and variants that many on this very site have been suggesting for years. THAT'S forsaking us?

...and this. 

[kirk13]

For what it's worth....

Unless it was to the gun range,my EDC Multitool in 2017 was either a Swisstool X or a Spirit,nothing else. The only place Leatherman got a look in was at the gun range,with my P.U.G,which is a modded Wave.

Even my classic LMs didn't get a look in. Just saying.

[tosh]

What they need to start producing is multitools for selected trades 
Like mechanics, electricians, carpentry, engineering, etc 
I don't want a bottle opener or a fish hook remover for instance 
We need more proper tooling 

Exactly 

This has been my argument for years and is exactly the reason why I do not edc out of work.
The MT manufacturers just seem unable to shake off the gadget factor.
I honestly cannot see why in 2018 there is not a single MT out there that has exactly the same power and strength as a normal pair of pliers but has aditional tools within its handles...seriously!! How hard can that be.
Leatherman, after 35yrs in production still do not provide proper blunt nose pliers. Ridiculous!! Having to resort instead to carbide inserts to bolster the strength is an absolute joke!
Incorporating numerous flat drivers in an age where almost everything is either cross head or hex head, all because it's both easier and far cheaper to stamp out flat drivers - lol
The trade specific tool idea would be revolutionary but only if manufacturers actually delivered a proper useable workhorse and not some daft gadget, as would probably be the case!!

It really angers me this, just lazy and greedy, yet holding patents they are not wanting to allow anyone else to step in and deliver.
A joke, a ridiculous overpriced overhyped joke. The constant costcutting, thinner steel, banal and uninspiring tool loadout combined with cheap naff pouches etc etc yet all the while the prices seem to be climbing higher and higher.

[Etherealicer]

I honestly cannot see why in 2018 there is not a single MT out there that has exactly the same power and strength as a normal pair of pliers but has aditional tools within its handles...seriously!! How hard can that be.

Knipex pliers are expensive without the functionality of an MT. Having the same overall structural strength would make the MT extremely expensive... and heavy or even more expensive.
I can already hear the whining if anyone brought out a top notch MT for 500$ (look at the knife prices, that would not be unrealistic for a titanium uni-body construction with knipex-quality-level pliers-head).

So, back to the original topic:
Have we forsaken LM
With our unwillingness to pay for decent tools? Forcing LM to find new markets.

[Sam Lim]

To me, Leatherman, or any other companies' main focus is profit making. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Yes, it may be a company founded based on passion for these tools, but without profit, they cannot sustain. The $ comes from the general public that buys their product. If those products sells, they have to go that way. We are not the general public. We are just a small group that have different feeling on different tools selections. Most of us here have the capabilities to change them to suit our needs and I enjoy doing that. There will never be a perfect multitool that someone can buy off the shelf. Again, we all have choices, I am not leatherman fan boy. But their products, while not all appeals to me, are not perfect but undeniably better quality than most other manufacturers.

BTW, I am still not understanding the big hoo-ha about the replaceable cutters. I love them and welcome the change. I have cut many nonsense things with it. My cutter chips but never broken a rebar pliers. Those that encounter this, probably you are very lucky or u may not be using it for its intended purpose/capability.

[Aloha]

I have been frustrated with LM and understand the venting.  I've come to realize for whatever reasons LM has decided to produce certain tools as they see fit.  That is their prerogative especially if it mean profits and staying in business.  Those of us who carry LMs everyday need them to stay in business.  What the heck would we do if we should need to warranty our tools? 

A wonderful point was made about Victorinox and their plier based tools.  They certainly are incredibly slow to do anything let alone innovative.  If I recall the new plier based tool only had a newer finish?  Lets talk about their pocket knives for a sec.  The Pioneer X.....  Once reason I don't carry a Vic plier based tool is my Wave/Charge is just so dominant.  Maybe LM did nearly perfect the MT as we know it??   When they revised the Surge to include replaceable wire cutters and revamp the blade exchanger wow what a nearly perfect tool.  Sure they ditched the little driver and some were pissed but there is no perfect tool unless you MOD it yourself. 

What are we talking about really?  Does LM give a rats behind about innovation? Does LM care about their loyalist?  They have to attract new business like any business.  We represent a very specific group of MT enthusiast.  Most will buy a certain tool and use it till it needs warranty, they loose it, or they retire it.  I snickered at the Signal along with others but having had more than my share in hand I applaud LM for that tool.  So back to what are we talking about.........  Details IMO.  We want perfection and want the manufactures to make tools with the perfect array of implements.  Thats a tall order. 

I'll leave with, I agree LM needs to buckle down on QC.  Oh and please include some quality leather sheaths like you used to please.     

[Wspeed]

What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knife
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife 

[ThePeacent]

Deep down they all revolve around the same model/design. They all have pliers and they all have handles. Most have butterfly opening with a few exceptions here and there. I feel the current designs like the Wave style and the traditional style (rebar) are perfect. How much more can they change or improve said models. I've stated before that I feel Leatherman peaked in the mid 2ks.

SOG is doing an amazing job in terms of innovation. For so long they rested on their laurels and stayed with the same models. They have had a massive shift in recent years trying to breathe life into the tool market. I applaud their efforts with the new tools coming out, they are trying hard to create new exciting designs and get their QC under control. Tools like the Baton series and the Sync show that there are still some cool ideas out there without relying on the same design model. In the end though,  the Power Access, Power Pint etc are nothing more than SOG branded Swiss Tools. Anything that strays from the standard model I highly praise.

Deep down I feel most of what's on the market are excellent tools and some are to the point of perfection. They could stop innovating now and the tool lovers of this world would be completely satisfied. Personally I love the Wave/Charge design is perfect and I don't see them changing it much more. I don't think adding cutters means they can milk us and charge extra for them but it was a design change that was overdue. The current model is a tired and worn out model that's been done to death, but how many other ways can you design a set of pocket pliers.

We continue to demand more out of Leatherman, SOG, Gerber, etc because we know there are still good ideas out there and the next big thing is on the horizon.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

these are exactly all the thoughts I wanted to post, you did it first. We think alike in this regard, 100%!!! 

[Don Pablo]

What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knife
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife 

And how often are you constrained to what the dealer has in stock?   

[AlephZero]

Customization costs a smurfload of $$$, how many "normal" customers (ie. not us  ) are prepared to pay the extra? 

[tosh]

I don't think the design needs change. The wave and surge are perfect in my mind. As is the ST300.

We just need a higher spec, better tool steel for the plier head.
Consider dumping the cap lifter and can opener or some of the silly flat bits!!
Replaceable saw blade is spot on. Especially if it's using the standard Bosch fitting.
Good sharp double sided file
A full length diamond rod that could also be unscrewed to sharpen the blades
A box cutter with standard size stanley blade fitting
Standard 1/4" bit holder

Such a tool would in my view be indespensible to most trades especially if LM ever got round to adding proper blunt nosed pliers made from proper tool steel.

So in essence, it isn't that far fetched everything already exists out there it just needs a redesign to implement.

I love MT's but I am totally pig sick of the same damn tool load out, absolutely sick of it.

[tosh]

What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knife
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife 

I think a way around this idea is for LM or any manufacturer to have software on their website where you are invited to design and submit. If a certain design was replicated constantly then serious thought should be given to putting it into production.
It wouldn't be so hard, I remember ikea did just that. You entered the size of your room, marked out the windows/doors and began designing.
It would be both fun and give the manufactures a clear idea as to what customers were looking for.

[Wspeed]

What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knife
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife 

And how often are you constrained to what the dealer has in stock?   

Customization costs a smurfload of $$$, how many "normal" customers (ie. not us  ) are prepared to pay the extra? 

I get what you both say 
But if there is the option to have the multitool as is ?
or for a bit more money I can have the knife
I want then that's worth the wait and extra money in my eyes
And we wouldn't be having to mod our multitool and still have our warranty 

[Etherealicer]

I don't think the design needs change. The wave and surge are perfect in my mind. As is the ST300.

We just need a higher spec, better tool steel for the plier head.
Consider dumping the cap lifter and can opener or some of the silly flat bits!!
Replaceable saw blade is spot on. Especially if it's using the standard Bosch fitting.
Good sharp double sided file
A full length diamond rod that could also be unscrewed to sharpen the blades
A box cutter with standard size stanley blade fitting
Standard 1/4" bit holder

Such a tool would in my view be indespensible to most trades especially if LM ever got round to adding proper blunt nosed pliers made from proper tool steel.

So in essence, it isn't that far fetched everything already exists out there it just needs a redesign to implement.

I love MT's but I am totally pig sick of the same damn tool load out, absolutely sick of it.

How much are you willing to pay for that? 100$? 500$? 1000$?


In most trades (at least here) use powertools...
On a construction side they would have
- Drill with bit adapter
- Reciprocating saw, circular saw
- Nail gun
Additionally, most carry
- Flat screwdriver (PB100 is the most popular MT in Switzerland, used for prying, scraping and as lever)
- Hammer
- Box cutter
- Pliers
- Other tools depending on their job

All the tools on a MT are tiny, I mean if you need to cut 10 2x4 you are way faster getting a larger saw. Also, you will get a much cleaner cut with circular saw. You need to cut insulation, get your big ass insulation saw for that.
IMO, MTs are for people who sometimes need tools, but can't justify the weight of a toolbox (e.g. because they walk around too much, or they don't need the tools often enough).

[Etherealicer]

What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knife
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife 

And how often are you constrained to what the dealer has in stock?   

Customization costs a smurfload of $$$, how many "normal" customers (ie. not us  ) are prepared to pay the extra? 

I get what you both say 
But if there is the option to have the multitool as is ?
or for a bit more money I can have the knife
I want then that's worth the wait and extra money in my eyes
And we wouldn't be having to mod our multitool and still have our warranty 

Its not going to be "a bit more". With customization, the automation is out of the window...

[dks]

Deja moooooo

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,48514.0.html

[tosh]

I don't think the design needs change. The wave and surge are perfect in my mind. As is the ST300.

We just need a higher spec, better tool steel for the plier head.
Consider dumping the cap lifter and can opener or some of the silly flat bits!!
Replaceable saw blade is spot on. Especially if it's using the standard Bosch fitting.
Good sharp double sided file
A full length diamond rod that could also be unscrewed to sharpen the blades
A box cutter with standard size stanley blade fitting
Standard 1/4" bit holder

Such a tool would in my view be indespensible to most trades especially if LM ever got round to adding proper blunt nosed pliers made from proper tool steel.

So in essence, it isn't that far fetched everything already exists out there it just needs a redesign to implement.

I love MT's but I am totally pig sick of the same damn tool load out, absolutely sick of it.

How much are you willing to pay for that? 100$? 500$? 1000$?


In most trades (at least here) use powertools...
On a construction side they would have
- Drill with bit adapter
- Reciprocating saw, circular saw
- Nail gun
Additionally, most carry
- Flat screwdriver (PB100 is the most popular MT in Switzerland, used for prying, scraping and as lever)
- Hammer
- Box cutter
- Pliers
- Other tools depending on their job

All the tools on a MT are tiny, I mean if you need to cut 10 2x4 you are way faster getting a larger saw. Also, you will get a much cleaner cut with circular saw. You need to cut insulation, get your big ass insulation saw for that.
IMO, MTs are for people who sometimes need tools, but can't justify the weight of a toolbox (e.g. because they walk around too much, or they don't need the tools often enough).

What you have stated is completely at odds as to how I view MT's
Ofcourse powertools are better and you would look such an idiot attempting to perform repetitive cuts using a 3-4" blade.

My view on MT's is nothing other than a valuable back up for unforeseen situations and hence why it is imperative that you have 100% trust that the tool on your belt will do its best within the limitations of its size. I ask nor expect nothing more.
I get the idea that some just like to phaff!! Sadly I'm not one. If it means making do with a silly MT or walking 10ft into the garage...I'll walk the 10ft!!
And it's only because I simply do not have any confidence in what is currently available.
Yes various MTs from various manufacturers have better designs over each other, but I'm not going to carry several MT's on my belt just so that I can be sure I have the best tool implement between them should a situation arise.
That's the bottom line for me.
I still carry the Gerber Balance and Rolson box cutter at work, the box cutter is amazing the balance is a piece of smurfe, but it's tweezers are magnificent and it's the only reason it's edc' d on a daily basis at work.

Here in the UK the LMs are expensive to buy new, but their high cost simply does not give what is promised.

And there lies my beef
They are all still pretty much gadgets.

[kaput]

What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knife
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife 

And how often are you constrained to what the dealer has in stock?   

True that. Plus isn't it comparative to the juice line for example, different colors, tools, sizes etc? Honda dx ex lx and so on.. 

[kaput]

Customization costs a smurfload of $$$, how many "normal" customers (ie. not us  ) are prepared to pay the extra? 

This too. PLUS, lets not forget the special editions and color combos that get released, to TRY and keep peeps happy  which seems to be getting increasingly harder and harder!

[AimlessWanderer]

I moved away some time ago. If I had to start again acquiring multitools, but still retained my knowledge and experience, the 2nd Gen Wave is the only Leatherman tool that I would consider - but not at today's prices. If they are phased out, leaving only the new plus models, that means there will be NO products in their current lineup that I would buy.

Leatherman's 4.1/2" frame size doesn't work for me. The MP600 and Diesel does. Too much splay, too many hot spots. That wipes out a good section of LM offerings. The Rebar and Signal are also riddled with hotspots and suffer excessive splay. The Charge's don't offer anything extra over the Wave, and just have fatter handles whick for me makes them less ergonomic. Gerber is generally a lot better in this respect.

I typically used the main gripping areas more than the wire cutters. The main gripping area is impeded by the indexable cutters, and can reduce effectiveness of gripping, or dig into the workpiece. The Spirit and Gerber offerings do not suffer this. OK, the LM cutters are usable, unlike the Gerber replacable ones, but I'd still rather have a Gerber or Victorinox plier head with integral cutters.

Quality. Currently a big problem for Leatherman in my experience. I've probably had more than my fair share of failings, and have had more issues with Leatherman's quality than with Gerber's. SOG still has them beat in terms of abysmal build quality, but Leatherman is certainly runner up in my opinion. I haven't owned ANY keyring sized tools from LM that have been free of issues. That includes the Micra in case you are wondering. That's why I have a Gerber Dime on my keys. It's not as well designed in terms of plier strength, but at least everything functions as it should.

Wingman family. Locking knife and non locking drivers is the wrong way around. Also, the ergonomics are horrendous. Give me an MP400 any day.

No multitool is perfect. They are always a compromise. But there is too much compromise on LM for me. High price, low quality standard, poor ergonomics, ineffective gripping areas. In my eyes, better value can be had elsewhere.

Do I still own/use them? Yes. I have modded a Fuse and Wave to knifeless, and they are good tools. I also still have a KF4 which keeps the bulk of the good ideas from the Juice line, and has the fewest quality issues. I also have a Sideclip which is an excellent tool. Only one of those is still available today, and one of them I would class as endangered since the plus models were announced.

While I wouldn't want to impede on anyone else's enjoyment of their tools, (if you like them, good luck to you) I see nothing of interest in their current offerings of the direction in which they seem to be headed. Huge thanks to LM for driving the industry forward, but you're not having any more of my money. I would rather buy a Victorinox or Gerber.

[powernoodle]

The only real changes I would like to see with Leatherman are these:

1 - total redesign of the Juice series
2 - more MTs with outside-opening tools for easy acccess, which also gives you a smooth grip when using the pliers
3 - lose the stubby drivers on the Wave, etc. and replace with long shank drivers like God intended for mankind, and
3 - get rid of the Tread.  It is Leatherman's Jar Jar Binks.

These are nit picky.  I own plenty of Leathermans and will prolly buy more in the future.  I'm waiting on a Camo Fuse from SteveC right now. [Everyone needs at least 2 Camo Fuses].   He is one of the worst drug pushers on MTO.  I mean one of the best.

[kaput]

I moved away some time ago. If I had to start again acquiring multitools, but still retained my knowledge and experience, the 2nd Gen Wave is the only Leatherman tool that I would consider - but not at today's prices. If they are phased out, leaving only the new plus models, that means there will be NO products in their current lineup that I would buy.

Leatherman's 4.1/2" frame size doesn't work for me. The MP600 and Diesel does. Too much splay, too many hot spots. That wipes out a good section of LM offerings. The Rebar and Signal are also riddled with hotspots and suffer excessive splay. The Charge's don't offer anything extra over the Wave, and just have fatter handles whick for me makes them less ergonomic. Gerber is generally a lot better in this respect.

I typically used the main gripping areas more than the wire cutters. The main gripping area is impeded by the indexable cutters, and can reduce effectiveness of gripping, or dig into the workpiece. The Spirit and Gerber offerings do not suffer this. OK, the LM cutters are usable, unlike the Gerber replacable ones, but I'd still rather have a Gerber or Victorinox plier head with integral cutters.

Quality. Currently a big problem for Leatherman in my experience. I've probably had more than my fair share of failings, and have had more issues with Leatherman's quality than with Gerber's. SOG still has them beat in terms of abysmal build quality, but Leatherman is certainly runner up in my opinion. I haven't owned ANY keyring sized tools from LM that have been free of issues. That includes the Micra in case you are wondering. That's why I have a Gerber Dime on my keys. It's not as well designed in terms of plier strength, but at least everything functions as it should.

Wingman family. Locking knife and non locking drivers is the wrong way around. Also, the ergonomics are horrendous. Give me an MP400 any day.

No multitool is perfect. They are always a compromise. But there is too much compromise on LM for me. High price, low quality standard, poor ergonomics, ineffective gripping areas. In my eyes, better value can be had elsewhere.

Do I still own/use them? Yes. I have modded a Fuse and Wave to knifeless, and they are good tools. I also still have a KF4 which keeps the bulk of the good ideas from the Juice line, and has the fewest quality issues. I also have a Sideclip which is an excellent tool. Only one of those is still available today, and one of them I would class as endangered since the plus models were announced.

While I wouldn't want to impede on anyone else's enjoyment of their tools, (if you like them, good luck to you) I see nothing of interest in their current offerings of the direction in which they seem to be headed. Huge thanks to LM for driving the industry forward, but you're not having any more of my money. I would rather buy a Victorinox or Gerber.

C'mon man your missing the thread. Again you just want to bash Leatherman any chance you get, we get it. Not the point of the thread. By the way, when did the MP 600 come out? You mention all the models of Leatherman that are crap (to you that is). But don't forget that Gerber for sure has turds in their lineup too... 

Back to topic