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Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on? 2365

No Life Club Posts: 2,702
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2018, 06:27:39 PM »
Yes, back to topic  :D

For me personally I still regard the Wave and its big brother the Surge as the best LM has yet produced. If LM could just upgrade the tool layout for 2018 and offer the blunt nose pliers I think it would be a amazing tool for trades...I really do.

But it's clear MT's are still hell bent on trying to be a SAK with pliers. I find the whole thing a massive failure. A SAK is a SAK, small and easily pocketable. MT's are much larger, heavier and ultimately bulkier in comparison plus they have belt pouches, why on earth try to emulate a SAK??
I just don't understand the obsession.

Can't a MT still not walk it's own path and become a stand alone tool rather than constantly trying to eat into SAK sales.

About time Leatherman and the likes took some responsibility and finally delivered to the masses what was needed..
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 07:35:33 PM by tosh »

I don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is right.
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,191 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2018, 07:05:34 PM »
C'mon man your missing the thread. Again you just want to bash Leatherman any chance you get, we get it. Not the point of the thread. By the way, when did the MP 600 come out? You mention all the models of Leatherman that are crap (to you that is). But don't forget that Gerber for sure has turds in their lineup too...  :whistle:

Back to topic

I highlighted specific ways in which they are evolving away from what I would want in a tool. Is that not the point of this thread? If this is just going to descend in attacking anyone who thinks differently to you, I'll return back to the shadows. Find someone else to have a pissing contest with, cos I ain't interested, and you're not worth my time.

As to the new + plier head designs, they do look weaker than I'd expect from a replaceable cutter head, but to be honest I haven't paid enough attention to them to make specific comments.

As regards tool sets, everyone wants something different. Needle nosed were more useful to me than blunt, on the whole. Some folks love bit drivers, other prefer long drivers. I don't need a locking blade, but a non-locking blade is a deal breaker for many people.

You can always choose a toolset based on your own needs, but it's important to find the tool ergonomic for long term use if it's a tool you're going to rely on. If it's pliers based, all aspects of the pliers should function well. Most importantly you should be able to trust the tool that you have in your pocket. I think there has been a trend over recent years to strive for tools which are commercially focussed, rather than practically focussed. That trend has not been confined to one manufacturer either. SOG are by far the biggest culprit in my opinion, but it does seem to be a market wide trend. Great for collectors, not so good for people who have to rely on their tools.


My current users:
Victorinox: - Spirit X, Climber Small, Alox Rambler, Orig. Outdoorsman, Voyager Lite, CT34 & 41, Compact, Manager, Salesman, + mods (Sheepsfoot Duke & Mega84)
Wenger: - Traveler, PTC + mods (Brian)
Gerber: - Balance, Dime + mods (MP426**, DEsTroyer, MP6000**, TurboDiesel**, Neutered Octane**)
Leatherman: - Sideclip, KF4, + mods (Fuse-ilier**, Knifeless Wave**)
Others: - Vise Grips LC6
** = knifeless
No Life Club Posts: 1,069
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2018, 07:23:42 PM »
I don't think the design needs change. The wave and surge are perfect in my mind. As is the ST300.

We just need a higher spec, better tool steel for the plier head.
Consider dumping the cap lifter and can opener or some of the silly flat bits!!
Replaceable saw blade is spot on. Especially if it's using the standard Bosch fitting.
Good sharp double sided file
A full length diamond rod that could also be unscrewed to sharpen the blades
A box cutter with standard size stanley blade fitting
Standard 1/4" bit holder

Such a tool would in my view be indespensible to most trades especially if LM ever got round to adding proper blunt nosed pliers made from proper tool steel.

So in essence, it isn't that far fetched everything already exists out there it just needs a redesign to implement.

I love MT's but I am totally pig sick of the same damn tool load out, absolutely sick of it.

Tosh,

There is nothing wrong with the steel currently being used. I don't want to spend $150 every time I want a multi tool. There is 420hc for the masses, 54cm for the wire cutters, and sv 30 blades for those who care. Even aluminum or titanium scales.

How often are you breaking plyers on these things? Maybe you should reconsider the tasks for which you use them.

Cap lifter gets used. Regardless if you don't like it, it does get used. In a crappy situation there are still a lot of bottles and cans that don't twist or pull off. Many are still produced that way, and of course, there are undoubtedly a lot in storage like that.

So are the flat head screw drivers used. They are used regularly by me. And I'm sure by many others.

I for one enjoy popping open a bottle of suds after 're-clamping my truck's radiator hoses. And I can do it all with one handy device containing a cap lifter and flat heads. Sorry you don't like it. I love it. Don't get me wrong, I get plenty of use from the Phillips head as well.

I absolutely agree with you on the diamond rod and having it screw onto and off of the main tool for use. I have said that many times regarding the Signal, for example. Same for its Ferro rod. But the whistle should be integral to the metal frame.

Too much customization screws up an automated assembly system. When you realise that each different add on means it has to branch off the line, you must realise that this raises costs. Honda makes basically three lines of every Civic. The Dx entry model with no radio and roll up Windows, the LX with power windows and a radio, and the EX with all that and a sunroof.

The point is K.I.S.S.

If something works, don't F with it. There is debate over wether the Swisstools are better than Leathermans, but ultimately they are built on very similar platforms.

Does Leatherman bite into Swiss Army Knife sales and territory? Yep. And I'm fine with that. That's what gave Victorinox A$$-pucker factor enough to buy Bear Jaws and use the patent to create the Swiss tools. Notice they didn't create something all new. Well, neither did Tim Leatherman. His PST is not much different than a fisherman's tool being made out of Solingen just after world war 2, and SAK s are not that different than pen knives  And multi-knives being made back to the late 1700's

What do you want? If the tool you talk about with files and Stanley  blade receivers isn't available, make it and sell it. That's what Tim did.
No Life Club Posts: 1,069
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2018, 07:28:07 PM »
What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knife
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife  :think:
And how often are you constrained to what the dealer has in stock?   :ahhh
Quote from: AlephZero link=topic=75648.msg1625574#msg1625574
date=1517240623

Customization costs a smurfload of $$$, how many "normal" customers (ie. not us  ;)) are prepared to pay the extra?  :pok:

I get what you both say  :tu:
But if there is the option to have the multitool as is ?
or for a bit more money I can have the knife
I want then that's worth the wait and extra money in my eyes
And we wouldn't be having to mod our multitool and still have our warranty  :think:
Its not going to be "a bit more". With customization, the automation is out of the window...

Very true, Eth
No Life Club Posts: 1,069
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2018, 07:33:50 PM »
I moved away some time ago. If I had to start again acquiring multitools, but still retained my knowledge and experience, the 2nd Gen Wave is the only Leatherman tool that I would consider - but not at today's prices. If they are phased out, leaving only the new plus models, that means there will be NO products in their current lineup that I would buy.

Leatherman's 4.1/2" frame size doesn't work for me. The MP600 and Diesel does. Too much splay, too many hot spots. That wipes out a good section of LM offerings. The Rebar and Signal are also riddled with hotspots and suffer excessive splay. The Charge's don't offer anything extra over the Wave, and just have fatter handles whick for me makes them less ergonomic. Gerber is generally a lot better in this respect.

I typically used the main gripping areas more than the wire cutters. The main gripping area is impeded by the indexable cutters, and can reduce effectiveness of gripping, or dig into the workpiece. The Spirit and Gerber offerings do not suffer this. OK, the LM cutters are usable, unlike the Gerber replacable ones, but I'd still rather have a Gerber or Victorinox plier head with integral cutters.

Quality. Currently a big problem for Leatherman in my experience. I've probably had more than my fair share of failings, and have had more issues with Leatherman's quality than with Gerber's. SOG still has them beat in terms of abysmal build quality, but Leatherman is certainly runner up in my opinion. I haven't owned ANY keyring sized tools from LM that have been free of issues. That includes the Micra in case you are wondering. That's why I have a Gerber Dime on my keys. It's not as well designed in terms of plier strength, but at least everything functions as it should.

Wingman family. Locking knife and non locking drivers is the wrong way around. Also, the ergonomics are horrendous. Give me an MP400 any day.

No multitool is perfect. They are always a compromise. But there is too much compromise on LM for me. High price, low quality standard, poor ergonomics, ineffective gripping areas. In my eyes, better value can be had elsewhere.

Do I still own/use them? Yes. I have modded a Fuse and Wave to knifeless, and they are good tools. I also still have a KF4 which keeps the bulk of the good ideas from the Juice line, and has the fewest quality issues. I also have a Sideclip which is an excellent tool. Only one of those is still available today, and one of them I would class as endangered since the plus models were announced.

While I wouldn't want to impede on anyone else's enjoyment of their tools, (if you like them, good luck to you) I see nothing of interest in their current offerings of the direction in which they seem to be headed. Huge thanks to LM for driving the industry forward, but you're not having any more of my money. I would rather buy a Victorinox or Gerber.

Fifty!!

Wow. Haven't seen you in a while. I disagree with you on some of the leatherman tools - I'm quite happy with the ones I have PST , PSTII, OFGSuper Tool, OG Surge, Rebar and others- but good to see you and get your logic-oriented feedback
No Life Club Posts: 1,069
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2018, 07:38:27 PM »
And although I disagree with a lot of what Tosh has said here, I do like the idea of snub plyers heads. They do better than needle nose on those opposite grasp spring loaded automotive hose clamps.
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 20,907 Gone Hunting

dks cy

********* *
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2018, 07:45:54 PM »
Here are for reference the dealer prices for LM in Europe (Multiply by 1.23 to get the dollar price)  - they are actually cheaper now, compared to a couple of years ago.


http://survivalbuddies.com/special/leatherman

Spending $150 on a new LM is the norm.

I can get a Ganzo, Cima, Bahco, B&D, Stanley  (possibly all made by the same people)  for around $25

Kelly: "Daddy, what makes men cheat on women?
Al : "Women!"

[ Knife threads ]  [ Country shopping guides ]  [ Battery-Charger-Light threads ]  [ Picture threads ]
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,191 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2018, 07:48:34 PM »

Fifty!!

Wow. Haven't seen you in a while. I disagree with you on some of the leatherman tools - I'm quite happy with the ones I have PST , PSTII, OFGSuper Tool, OG Surge, Rebar and others- but good to see you and get your logic-oriented feedback

Thanks TB.  :cheers:

The PST siblings don't work as well for me as they do for others, but I am a fan of the Sideclip. That's the one that tick the box for me in the old stuff. Partly the clip, partly the thicker handle material. The thing that made it really stand out for me was when I compared it to the Mini tool. For the bulk and weight, it was vastly superior in terms of capability, and while it took me a while to recognise the value of a Sideclip (I got rid of my first one), it does pair exceptionally well with a SAK.

The Supertool and Surge didn't win me over, but I do understand the appeal to others. The Gerbers just feel better in my hands, which is a higher priority to me than the length of the Phillips driver for example.

I tried the Rebar twice, as stock and modded, and just couldn't get on with it. Some guys love it, but I found it very uncomfortable to hold, and loathed the pliers head. Again, I can see the appeal for some people, and have recommended other people try it when they been asking for recommendations where it seemed like a contender, but it was a huge fail for me.

We all have different priorities for our tools though, and there is no universal answer for everyone.  :salute:


My current users:
Victorinox: - Spirit X, Climber Small, Alox Rambler, Orig. Outdoorsman, Voyager Lite, CT34 & 41, Compact, Manager, Salesman, + mods (Sheepsfoot Duke & Mega84)
Wenger: - Traveler, PTC + mods (Brian)
Gerber: - Balance, Dime + mods (MP426**, DEsTroyer, MP6000**, TurboDiesel**, Neutered Octane**)
Leatherman: - Sideclip, KF4, + mods (Fuse-ilier**, Knifeless Wave**)
Others: - Vise Grips LC6
** = knifeless
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,348
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2018, 07:51:58 PM »
Here are for reference the dealer prices for LM in Europe (Multiply by 1.23 to get the dollar price)  - they are actually cheaper now, compared to a couple of years ago.


http://survivalbuddies.com/special/leatherman

Spending $150 on a new LM is the norm.

I can get a Ganzo, Cima, Bahco, B&D, Stanley  (possibly all made by the same people)  for around $25
Just checked today.
A wave costs nearly the same as a Swisstool here.
If I want it with nylon sheath, it'll cost as much as the Spirit Plus package.

Buy now or regret later
No Life Club Posts: 2,702
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2018, 07:52:22 PM »
@ThundahBeagle

Sadly I don't use MT's (besides the edc at work Gerber Balance), not because I don't want to, but because I cannot for the life of me visualise a situation where I would ever need Needlenose pliers, a cap lifter, can opener, several flat bits  :facepalm:

So why would I want to lug an MT around 24/7??

The woodsaw on the wave is not replaceable and I would suspect very very hard to resharpen . Considering the Wave is around £100 here in the UK that makes for a very expensive yet still disposable tool. The answer of course is make it fully replaceable, hence the jigsaw or cut down recip blades. Or better still have genuine LM replacements at £10 a chuck....I'd then be totally care free with using it.

fact is I would pay a premium price for a proper multitool. One that was built to impeccable standards.
slightly off topic but the MUT here in the UK now retails for almost £200. That's an obscene amount of money for what is primarily a defunct tool here in the UK.
But my point is people are buying otherwise the market wouldn't be there, so it figures that people would buy a proper heavy duty tool that could withstand use in the real hardworking situations.
That's all I ask.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 07:59:41 PM by tosh »

I don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is right.
No Life Club Posts: 2,702
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2018, 08:06:02 PM »
With reference to 50fts preference of the Gerbers... I really wanted to like the Gerbers, god knows I have enough  :facepalm:
But whilst I love the big meaty blunt nose pliers I absolutely hate the internal tools.

The steel feels almost wafer thin, I have a few that were purchased used where internal tools have just snapped off!!  :ahhh
I grabbed a used center drive sometime back and it feels like a step in the right direction for me, just waiting for the blunt nose to make an appearance.  :drool:

I don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is right.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,164 Tactical Desk Jockey
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2018, 08:20:36 PM »
Hi guys.
I might be changing camps soon. I have a long history with LM tools and a lot of sentiment for them but I need stuff that works and makes my life and work as easy as possible. In my opinion update to the Surge was the last highlight, since then my love for LM is fading with every year. Instead of improving and developing existing tools they go in to keyrings and knives and other snowboard faff. And now this: replecable cutters on the Wave/Charge like that!!?? How little metal is left in there? I'm so happy I have invested in a Recharge years ago, now I know it will be the best LM option for another 10 years...

For me Leatherman is currently running 70% on reputation and their warranty policy. But from usability point of view they are no longer the best on the market, they have been mached by SOG, Swisstool and (I can't belive I'm saying this) Gerber. Have you seen SOG poweraccess deluxe or powerpint or powerplay? Or the update to Gerber suspension! All blades available from outside, bit holders, long screwdrivers, real steinless steel, pouches with accessories....

But it's more important to release £200 metal bracelet, £500 watch or reheat oldest tool for £300 instead of innowating and leading the industry.

What do you think, are you looking around to change your main mt? Just trying to share my dissapointment...
I had expressed all MT.o 's concerns (including yours) to Tim Leatherman, the man himself last week at shotshow.

EDC: Black Talon, Black Cat, Spirit, LD02
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 6,007 Smurf smash!
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2018, 08:46:39 PM »
The only real changes I would like to see with Leatherman are these:

1 - total redesign of the Juice series
2 - more MTs with outside-opening tools for easy acccess, which also gives you a smooth grip when using the pliers
3 - lose the stubby drivers on the Wave, etc. and replace with long shank drivers like God intended for mankind, and
3 - get rid of the Tread.  It is Leatherman's Jar Jar Binks.

These are nit picky.  I own plenty of Leathermans and will prolly buy more in the future.  I'm waiting on a Camo Fuse from SteveC right now. [Everyone needs at least 2 Camo Fuses].   He is one of the worst drug pushers on MTO.  I mean one of the best.



(Image removed from quote.)

I happen to like Jar Jar...

Do NOT get rid of the Tread, if it brings in the $$$ it's all good! It's not for us, no, but if it keeps LM afloat, more power to them...

Let's face it, we are not the designed customer base for any of the Multitool makers, we are the most enthusiastic, most passionate, but we are not the target.

The target is the big crowds, and things we are interested in, are not the same as theirs.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

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Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,191 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2018, 08:48:30 PM »
The target is the big crowds, and things we are interested in, are not the same as theirs.

 :tu: :salute:


My current users:
Victorinox: - Spirit X, Climber Small, Alox Rambler, Orig. Outdoorsman, Voyager Lite, CT34 & 41, Compact, Manager, Salesman, + mods (Sheepsfoot Duke & Mega84)
Wenger: - Traveler, PTC + mods (Brian)
Gerber: - Balance, Dime + mods (MP426**, DEsTroyer, MP6000**, TurboDiesel**, Neutered Octane**)
Leatherman: - Sideclip, KF4, + mods (Fuse-ilier**, Knifeless Wave**)
Others: - Vise Grips LC6
** = knifeless
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 6,007 Smurf smash!
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2018, 08:55:17 PM »
The target is the big crowds, and things we are interested in, are not the same as theirs.

 :tu: :salute:

Al :salute:

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

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Missing pics because of Smurfbucket? Check out Aleph's Pic Repost Thread - Smurf Off Smurfbucket
No Life Club Posts: 3,586
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2018, 09:03:32 PM »
This is one of those topics which can go downhill real quick ...

Some people here are quite fanatical when it comes to brand loyalty.  In the past there already has been a topic in which somebody criticized a Leatherman tool, or Leatherman's QC and ended up getting personal remarks, so I'll keep it as short as possible and this will be my first and only post in this topic.

I can understand brand loyalty, especially when it's a brand from your own country. But try to understand that over here, there are also people who really like Leatherman, but the way I see it we have to like Leatherman twice or even three times more than the U.S. fans, seeing what we have to pay for Leatherman tools.  So please don't think we're bashing Leatherman when some of us are starting to ask question about the direction in which Leatherman is moving.  Over here a Surge costs 189,9 Euro at the local shop, 199,9 Euro if you want a BO version ...  I wonder how the U.S. fans would react if they had to pay these amounts.

About the new tools Leatherman is bringing out, well, I don't care for the snowboard stuff (since I have no use for it, but that's just me), and I don't like the "half" tools.  BUT, since no one is forcing me to buy these, I don't really care about them.

What I do care about is the fact that, when I spend 189,9 Euro on a tool, it should be perfect.  No rubbing of tools against the handle, no loose tools, no scissors that fail after being used twice, no knife safety pin (you know, the thingy on the Wave/Charge/Surge that prevents the blade from opening while using the pliers) that's too long so the knife can't be opened even when the tool is closed, and so on ...

Back in '94 I bought my first multitool, it was a brandnew original Supertool.  I paid 2400 BEF (Belgian Francs) for it, which is about 60 Euro,  and for this I got a tool which was perfect in every way, none of the problems I mentioned above, NONE !!!  These days a ST300 goes for around 130 Euro and in my opinion, it's always a bit of a gamble, do I get one with a couple of flaws, or with just one flaw, or is it one without flaws this time ...

This was not the case back in the '90s ...  ::)

I still like Leatherman tools a lot, I'm still a big fan of the brand.  But if possible, I will buy a Leatherman at a store where I can hold it in my hands and check it to see if there are any fit and finish problems first.

P.S.: I just know I'll buy myself a Wave + (or even a Charge +) once they become available over here ... still being a Leatherman fan  8).

« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 09:05:39 PM by Top-Gear-24 »

"Gonna Rise Up ... turning mistakes into Gold"
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,348
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2018, 09:48:44 PM »
This is one of those topics which can go downhill real quick ...

Some people here are quite fanatical when it comes to brand loyalty.  In the past there already has been a topic in which somebody criticized a Leatherman tool, or Leatherman's QC and ended up getting personal remarks, so I'll keep it as short as possible and this will be my first and only post in this topic.

I can understand brand loyalty, especially when it's a brand from your own country. But try to understand that over here, there are also people who really like Leatherman, but the way I see it we have to like Leatherman twice or even three times more than the U.S. fans, seeing what we have to pay for Leatherman tools.  So please don't think we're bashing Leatherman when some of us are starting to ask question about the direction in which Leatherman is moving.  Over here a Surge costs 189,9 Euro at the local shop, 199,9 Euro if you want a BO version ...  I wonder how the U.S. fans would react if they had to pay these amounts.

About the new tools Leatherman is bringing out, well, I don't care for the snowboard stuff (since I have no use for it, but that's just me), and I don't like the "half" tools.  BUT, since no one is forcing me to buy these, I don't really care about them.

What I do care about is the fact that, when I spend 189,9 Euro on a tool, it should be perfect.  No rubbing of tools against the handle, no loose tools, no scissors that fail after being used twice, no knife safety pin (you know, the thingy on the Wave/Charge/Surge that prevents the blade from opening while using the pliers) that's too long so the knife can't be opened even when the tool is closed, and so on ...

Back in '94 I bought my first multitool, it was a brandnew original Supertool.  I paid 2400 BEF (Belgian Francs) for it, which is about 60 Euro,  and for this I got a tool which was perfect in every way, none of the problems I mentioned above, NONE !!!  These days a ST300 goes for around 130 Euro and in my opinion, it's always a bit of a gamble, do I get one with a couple of flaws, or with just one flaw, or is it one without flaws this time ...

This was not the case back in the '90s ...  ::)

I still like Leatherman tools a lot, I'm still a big fan of the brand.  But if possible, I will buy a Leatherman at a store where I can hold it in my hands and check it to see if there are any fit and finish problems first.

P.S.: I just know I'll buy myself a Wave + (or even a Charge +) once they become available over here ... still being a Leatherman fan  8).
:imws:

Buy now or regret later
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,191 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2018, 10:29:31 PM »
This is one of those topics which can go downhill real quick ...

Some people here are quite fanatical when it comes to brand loyalty.  In the past there already has been a topic in which somebody criticized a Leatherman tool, or Leatherman's QC and ended up getting personal remarks, so I'll keep it as short as possible and this will be my first and only post in this topic.

In the many years that I've been a member here, I have criticised every single manufacturer many times over, sometimes for individual features, sometimes a whole tool, and sometimes a whole product line.

Victorinox, for their 74 and 111mm lines, Spirit scissors and wire cutters, Minichamp, fish tickler, and much more...

Wenger, for their 130mm "ergonomic" scales, padlock system, 85mm alligator wrench, Swissgrip ergonomics, that mountaineer knife that used half a drinks coaster as a blade, and much more...

Gerber, for their disintegrating cutters, sprung plier head lifespan, Flik ratchet design, Dime plier spring design, any and all external use of the Saf-T-Lok system, and much more....

Leatherman, for their handle splay, ergonomics, impeded gripping areas, quality control, and much more...

SOG, for virtually everything they've done in the last 10 years,

CRKT, for their quirky curios that never really seem to capture any functionality as a multitool,

All the various tools have also at some point been recommended by me to someone else looking for a tool. I've always accepted that my opinions and frustrations might not apply to someone else, and have often suggested a tool that I don't like, to someone who may benefit from it's particular design attributes, in the hope that it works better for someone else than it did for me.

Across the years and the various forum boards at MTO, there's always been room for a difference of opinion. There's always been a YMMV attitude, and an appreciation of the different priorities and circumstances of individual users. With one prevailing exception. Make a criticism of Leatherman, and SOME of the fanboys will feel utterly compelled to get their pitchforks out. They are the ONLY ONES who get their knickers in a twist and get all butt hurt by someone else's opinions. With this in mind, I've always felt comfortable and confident to support my criticisms when they have been attacked, as I'm pretty certain the lack of rationale or objectivity isn't residing at this end of my tiny little spur of the internet.

True story.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 10:35:35 PM by 50ft-trad »


My current users:
Victorinox: - Spirit X, Climber Small, Alox Rambler, Orig. Outdoorsman, Voyager Lite, CT34 & 41, Compact, Manager, Salesman, + mods (Sheepsfoot Duke & Mega84)
Wenger: - Traveler, PTC + mods (Brian)
Gerber: - Balance, Dime + mods (MP426**, DEsTroyer, MP6000**, TurboDiesel**, Neutered Octane**)
Leatherman: - Sideclip, KF4, + mods (Fuse-ilier**, Knifeless Wave**)
Others: - Vise Grips LC6
** = knifeless
Sr. Member Posts: 446
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2018, 10:47:01 PM »
This is so funny its actually ridiculous.

On the entire market there are no better Multitools than the Rebar/ST300 or Wave/Surge; depending if you like inside tools or one hand opening.
Choose inside or outside, choose medium or large. All have replaceable cutters now, a state of total dominance has just been achieved.

Boom! Leatherman total perfection.
+1, totally agree

Dream. Wish. Leave nothing undone. Repeat.
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,479
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2018, 10:48:15 PM »
There has been more activity on the Leatherman forum in the last week than for the last few months   :D



There are plenty on the Vic forum that get bent when you criticize their MT's and there are those that only ever come on the LM forum to pile on when there is a gripe thread, not directing this at you Al just in general.

Lets just try to keep it friendly fellas  :tu:
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,191 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2018, 10:55:00 PM »
Thanks Steve  :tu:

I've been out of the loop for a while, so haven’t seen any recent "trends". I was just expressing a general opinion of my years here.

 :cheers:


My current users:
Victorinox: - Spirit X, Climber Small, Alox Rambler, Orig. Outdoorsman, Voyager Lite, CT34 & 41, Compact, Manager, Salesman, + mods (Sheepsfoot Duke & Mega84)
Wenger: - Traveler, PTC + mods (Brian)
Gerber: - Balance, Dime + mods (MP426**, DEsTroyer, MP6000**, TurboDiesel**, Neutered Octane**)
Leatherman: - Sideclip, KF4, + mods (Fuse-ilier**, Knifeless Wave**)
Others: - Vise Grips LC6
** = knifeless
No Life Club Posts: 2,471
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2018, 10:55:52 PM »
Maybe a little more positivity wouldn't hurt. Instead of listing things we hate about every single company out there. Jeezus... what's going on here.

I like multitools™ in general.

Long live the multitool, in addition to my tool bag  :D , long live Gerber, Leatherman, SOG etc!

multi-tools—folding contraptions fixed with all kinds of doo-dads
Global Moderator Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 26,479
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2018, 10:56:15 PM »
Thanks Steve  :tu:

I've been out of the loop for a while, so haven’t seen any recent "trends". I was just expressing a general opinion of my years here.

 :cheers:

Good to have you around Al !   :cheers:
No Life Club Posts: 1,069
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2018, 11:43:11 PM »

Fifty!!

Wow. Haven't seen you in a while. I disagree with you on some of the leatherman tools - I'm quite happy with the ones I have PST , PSTII, OFGSuper Tool, OG Surge, Rebar and others- but good to see you and get your logic-oriented feedback

Thanks TB.  :cheers:

The PST siblings don't work as well for me as they do for others, but I am a fan of the Sideclip. That's the one that tick the box for me in the old stuff. Partly the clip, partly the thicker handle material. The thing that made it really stand out for me was when I compared it to the Mini tool. For the bulk and weight, it was vastly superior in terms of capability, and while it took me a while to recognise the value of a Sideclip (I got rid of my first one), it does pair exceptionally well with a SAK.

The Supertool and Surge didn't win me over, but I do understand the appeal to others. The Gerbers just feel better in my hands, which is a higher priority to me than the length of the Phillips driver for example.

I tried the Rebar twice, as stock and modded, and just couldn't get on with it. Some guys love it, but I found it very uncomfortable to hold, and loathed the pliers head. Again, I can see the appeal for some people, and have recommended other people try it when they been asking for recommendations where it seemed like a contender, but it was a huge fail for me.

We all have different priorities for our tools though, and there is no universal answer for everyone.  :salute:

So, Fifty, I've been considering trying some Gerber as well. Now I may also look at a sideclip. Back to Gerber, I've got in my favorites list an MP 600 and a Pro Scout, as well as an MP 400. I wanted to start with something closer to their original design so I can compare it to the classic leatherman s that I like.

What's best of those three, in your opinion?
No Life Club Posts: 1,069
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2018, 11:59:56 PM »
@ThundahBeagle

Sadly I don't use MT's (besides the edc at work Gerber Balance), not because I don't want to, but because I cannot for the life of me visualise a situation where I would ever need Needlenose pliers, a cap lifter, can opener, several flat bits  :facepalm:

So why would I want to lug an MT around 24/7??

The woodsaw on the wave is not replaceable and I would suspect very very hard to resharpen . Considering the Wave is around £100 here in the UK that makes for a very expensive yet still disposable tool. The answer of course is make it fully replaceable, hence the jigsaw or cut down recip blades. Or better still have genuine LM replacements at £10 a chuck....I'd then be totally care free with using it.

fact is I would pay a premium price for a proper multitool. One that was built to impeccable standards.
slightly off topic but the MUT here in the UK now retails for almost £200. That's an obscene amount of money for what is primarily a defunct tool here in the UK.
But my point is people are buying otherwise the market wouldn't be there, so it figures that people would buy a proper heavy duty tool that could withstand use in the real hardworking situations.
That's all I ask.

I hear you, Tosh. But what tools do you want? Sounds to me like most of your Swiss Army Knife collection gets tossed as well. Consider a typical swiss army knife also has two flathead screwdrivers, a can opener, and a bottle opener, then you are saying most of a Spartan or Tinker is also useless and not worth carrying. So, all that is left of the most typical SAK at that point it a couple of small knives and a corkscrew. Or a Phillips head.

The wood saw on a SAK is not replaceable either, though it cost much less than a Wave. So that tosses out the Camper for you, too. Are you using that corkscrew on the job? Probably not.

So, carry a Buck knife, a blunt nose plyers, and a Phillips head screwdriver around in your pockets or a tool belt or a homemade sheath. You could use a stubby short Phillips.

Do you also not like Gerbers blunt plyers options? I ask seriously, as I am considering that route

I have a Surge and I love that the saw is replaceable. A saw or set of bits is $10-$15. I agree it should be so on the Wave as well. They should have done that with the Plus model. By the way, the Wave MSRP is $90 bucks here, so you don't have that one too badly.
No Life Club Posts: 2,702
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #85 on: January 30, 2018, 12:26:11 AM »
@ThundahBeagle

Sadly I don't use MT's (besides the edc at work Gerber Balance), not because I don't want to, but because I cannot for the life of me visualise a situation where I would ever need Needlenose pliers, a cap lifter, can opener, several flat bits  :facepalm:

So why would I want to lug an MT around 24/7??

The woodsaw on the wave is not replaceable and I would suspect very very hard to resharpen . Considering the Wave is around £100 here in the UK that makes for a very expensive yet still disposable tool. The answer of course is make it fully replaceable, hence the jigsaw or cut down recip blades. Or better still have genuine LM replacements at £10 a chuck....I'd then be totally care free with using it.

fact is I would pay a premium price for a proper multitool. One that was built to impeccable standards.
slightly off topic but the MUT here in the UK now retails for almost £200. That's an obscene amount of money for what is primarily a defunct tool here in the UK.
But my point is people are buying otherwise the market wouldn't be there, so it figures that people would buy a proper heavy duty tool that could withstand use in the real hardworking situations.
That's all I ask.

I hear you, Tosh. But what tools do you want? Sounds to me like most of your Swiss Army Knife collection gets tossed as well. Consider a typical swiss army knife also has two flathead screwdrivers, a can opener, and a bottle opener, then you are saying most of a Spartan or Tinker is also useless and not worth carrying. So, all that is left of the most typical SAK at that point it a couple of small knives and a corkscrew. Or a Phillips head.

The wood saw on a SAK is not replaceable either, though it cost much less than a Wave. So that tosses out the Camper for you, too. Are you using that corkscrew on the job? Probably not.

So, carry a Buck knife, a blunt nose plyers, and a Phillips head screwdriver around in your pockets or a tool belt or a homemade sheath. You could use a stubby short Phillips.

Do you also not like Gerbers blunt plyers options? I ask seriously, as I am considering that route

I have a Surge and I love that the saw is replaceable. A saw or set of bits is $10-$15. I agree it should be so on the Wave as well. They should have done that with the Plus model. By the way, the Wave MSRP is $90 bucks here, so you don't have that one too badly.

As already mentioned
I EDC a Gerber Balance and a cheap Rolson Box Cutter at work. That set up has seen daily use for the past 3-4yrs. The Balance pliers are truly naff. The CE Blade is not my thing either. The Fisker scissors are fine as are the long drivers. But the real star is the tweezers, they are superb!

I used to carry a Wave (classic) plus Vic champ when we used to go camping, but we sold both the caravan and tent last year so neither gets used, unless we go on hols.

As for my Collection.....none of it sees use. I've never used a Wenger for anything as far as I can remember. I have the Bucks you mention and yes they are a step in the right direction, a little big and bulky mind you.

The Gerbers, by which I'm referring to the MP600 and 400 series were what originally started the collecting bug, needless to say I have many. The Blunt nosed are my personal favourite, but I dislike the access to inside tools. The tools themselves maybe fine, but they don't seem to fit in with the HD look of the tool itself, the blades always look fragile to me, I have many that have snapped blades, so clearly I'm onto something. I like the center drive and have promised myself to replace my Gerber Balance at work when a Blunt nose version is released.

I wish LM would make a plier head for the Surge identical to the Gerber blunt nose. I would EDC that daily. But as it is, I cannot remember the last time I needed to use needlenose pliers, for me and my wants and needs they are all but useless. Hence why I simply don't EDC no more.

I don't claim to know it all, but what I do know is right.
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 15,191 I'm not a pessimist, I'm an experienced optimist!
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #86 on: January 30, 2018, 12:27:42 AM »
So, Fifty, I've been considering trying some Gerber as well. Now I may also look at a sideclip. Back to Gerber, I've got in my favorites list an MP 600 and a Pro Scout, as well as an MP 400. I wanted to start with something closer to their original design so I can compare it to the classic leatherman s that I like.

What's best of those three, in your opinion?

Steer clear of the indexable cutters, and you'll be fine!

Blunt nosed, needle nosed, whatever takes your fancy. I currently have a modded knifeless 400, a modded knifeless 600, a modded knifeless Diesel (I think this is another good offering, but the partial thickness Phillips might be it's Achilles heel for you), and a 600 where I've replaced the pliers with shears. I think they're all great - it just depends which suits my needs best at the time.

I do have more reservations about the Centredrive though, which I'll mention in case you're considering that. Not only has it got the evaporating cutters, but also Gerber's sprung plier head has a diminished lifespan in my experience. There's a few cast parts that concern me too (bit driver and pry tool) and I know Etherealicer had issues with the pry tool, but I'm not sure if my concerns on the driver arm have been justified yet. Personally, I'd consider the 400 and 600 a safer bet, so long as you get integral cutters, not replaceable. That said, last time I looked, people were giving the CD fairly decent reviews, so please just take my comments as one of many people's appraisals if you're considering this tool.


My current users:
Victorinox: - Spirit X, Climber Small, Alox Rambler, Orig. Outdoorsman, Voyager Lite, CT34 & 41, Compact, Manager, Salesman, + mods (Sheepsfoot Duke & Mega84)
Wenger: - Traveler, PTC + mods (Brian)
Gerber: - Balance, Dime + mods (MP426**, DEsTroyer, MP6000**, TurboDiesel**, Neutered Octane**)
Leatherman: - Sideclip, KF4, + mods (Fuse-ilier**, Knifeless Wave**)
Others: - Vise Grips LC6
** = knifeless
No Life Club Posts: 1,069
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #87 on: January 30, 2018, 12:36:52 AM »
This is one of those topics which can go downhill real quick ...

Some people here are quite fanatical when it comes to brand loyalty.  In the past there already has been a topic in which somebody criticized a Leatherman tool, or Leatherman's QC and ended up getting personal remarks, so I'll keep it as short as possible and this will be my first and only post in this topic.

I can understand brand loyalty, especially when it's a brand from your own country. But try to understand that over here, there are also people who really like Leatherman, but the way I see it we have to like Leatherman twice or even three times more than the U.S. fans, seeing what we have to pay for Leatherman tools.  So please don't think we're bashing Leatherman when some of us are starting to ask question about the direction in which Leatherman is moving.  Over here a Surge costs 189,9 Euro at the local shop, 199,9 Euro if you want a BO version ...  I wonder how the U.S. fans would react if they had to pay these amounts.

About the new tools Leatherman is bringing out, well, I don't care for the snowboard stuff (since I have no use for it, but that's just me), and I don't like the "half" tools.  BUT, since no one is forcing me to buy these, I don't really care about them.

What I do care about is the fact that, when I spend 189,9 Euro on a tool, it should be perfect.  No rubbing of tools against the handle, no loose tools, no scissors that fail after being used twice, no knife safety pin (you know, the thingy on the Wave/Charge/Surge that prevents the blade from opening while using the pliers) that's too long so the knife can't be opened even when the tool is closed, and so on ...

Back in '94 I bought my first multitool, it was a brandnew original Supertool.  I paid 2400 BEF (Belgian Francs) for it, which is about 60 Euro,  and for this I got a tool which was perfect in every way, none of the problems I mentioned above, NONE !!!  These days a ST300 goes for around 130 Euro and in my opinion, it's always a bit of a gamble, do I get one with a couple of flaws, or with just one flaw, or is it one without flaws this time ...

This was not the case back in the '90s ...  ::)

I still like Leatherman tools a lot, I'm still a big fan of the brand.  But if possible, I will buy a Leatherman at a store where I can hold it in my hands and check it to see if there are any fit and finish problems first.

P.S.: I just know I'll buy myself a Wave + (or even a Charge +) once they become available over here ... still being a Leatherman fan  8).

Hi TG 24

To me, brand loyalty must be earned, and we all have  a right to speak about something we don't like. See my responses in the SAK Hook threads. Yikes. So if a brand deteriorates, whack it.

But we here in the US have nothing to do with why Leatherman is so expensive there. I feel fortunate that Victorinox knives are not very expensive in general. This must all be something to do With EU mass buying power, but Leatherman is a US based and manufactured tool. I don't know what else to say on that...

I also am not a fan of a lot of Leatherman s new gimmick toys. Even a lot of the newer tools I just don't like. Not because they are new, but because the designs sometimes seem different just for the sake of being different. And that's not always good. And Quality Control issues.

That original Super Tool, however, is an absolute testament to simple, robust, locking design of a quality tool. No gadgety locks to break the pins or sliders. All it took was to bend the end of the slip joint back spring into a slight L shape, and locking was achieved. Genius, if not a little cumbersome to UNlock. But it's not meant to be used in a fast motion.

I have two. They are phenomenal. Most of the older stuff has unsurpassed quality. Today's stuff, well the quality suffered a bit in return for different features. I'm not a fan of all newer stuff, but I'm satisfied with my Rebar and my old version (2006) Surge. I like my 2012 Blast but wish plastic never entered the Leatherman world. If not for that, the Blast would be near perfect.

You are right, though, in wanting top quality for top money paid.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 12:50:03 AM by ThundahBeagle »
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,887 Any tool is better than nothing. Some not by much
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #88 on: January 30, 2018, 03:27:16 AM »
The Gerbers, by which I'm referring to the MP600 and 400 series were what originally started the collecting bug, needless to say I have many. The Blunt nosed are my personal favourite, but I dislike the access to inside tools. The tools themselves maybe fine, but they don't seem to fit in with the HD look of the tool itself, the blades always look fragile to me, I have many that have snapped blades, so clearly I'm onto something.

I got an MP600 with a snapped blade as well, and i'm about 100% certain it was intentionally snapped off to try to make it able to pass through airport security. Because BOTH blades were snapped off at about the same place.

I don't think the blades just spontaneously break, I think the ones that come up on ebay are largely TSA-swiped tools, often where peolpe try to make them passable and fail, leaving lil stubby nubs that can still be used for terrible/horrible/nafarious purposes... like scratching someone deeply.

Thunda: Get an MP600. Get a used one from ebay. They're cheap, even in really good shape, and plentiful. And I think they're kind of THE quintessential Gerber. You might not love it, but I think you'll at least respect the design. My opinion.
No Life Club Posts: 1,613
Re: Have Leatherman forsaken us? Is it time to move on?
« Reply #89 on: January 30, 2018, 03:47:31 AM »
Simple--make the tools just like they were in the nineties.  Most of the modern tools I have purchased had something minor, and often major (i.e. Micra with loose scissors that couldn't cut anything) Ditch bead blasting, and go back to high polishes--it tends to attract rust. I had a ST300 I had washed, forgot to dry, came back two hours later, and rust spots formed all over. I think Leatherman should attempt to produce a tool with components entirely sourced from the US.

 

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